Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial

|  I am just trying to understand a situation where I would NOT find it  
|  appropriate to let Cincom have its due.

  I'm a bit worried about the following scenario:

  A client wants some custom tool built. I fire up VW and develop
the application. I negociated a fixed price for the tool, $1000.-
Of that, I owe 5% to Cincom. I'm okay with that.

  However, from now on, the use of the tool is out of my control.
The customer can do whatever he wants with it (perhaps I can exclude
actively reselling in the contract, but that's about it). De facto,
I can't force the customer to only use it on one server, only for
three seats or to enter a relationship with Cincom if they make
money off using my tool.

  Rationale for my claim "I can't": If I try to write that into the
contract, I'm absolutely positively sure I won't get the job. When
I sell something, I can't sell additional burdens with it, not in
the kind of market I'm in.

  So should I ever sell a VW-based app (I'm still pushing VW at
every possibility, sadly I have yet to succeed), I'd just go for
the VAR model and _CERTAINLY_NOT_ tell the customer any details
other than "here's your application, if there's a problem call me,
otherwise have fun".

  From what I've understood, this may violate Cincom's licensing
model since the client might make money using the application? If
that indeed is so, then I see three possibilities:

  - Go ahead as described above, so the client may unknowingly
    violate the license. Not good, I don't want to jeopardize
    the well-being of my clients.
  - Tell the clients about all the intricacies and not make the
    sale at all.
  - Use something other than VW (Squeak, PHP, Java, Visual-du-Jour).

  I'm not really thrilled by any of those alternatives.

  Regards,

        mjl

Dear Martin,

why wouldn't you be able to force your customer to use your tool only on one server or only for
three seats? That's the way software licenses are sold. And if you preclude reselling of your tool everybody is on the safe side.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Martin J. Laubach [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. April 2006 14:03
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: AW: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk Non-Commercial


|  I am just trying to understand a situation where I would NOT find it  
|  appropriate to let Cincom have its due.

  I'm a bit worried about the following scenario:

  A client wants some custom tool built. I fire up VW and develop
the application. I negociated a fixed price for the tool, $1000.-
Of that, I owe 5% to Cincom. I'm okay with that.

  However, from now on, the use of the tool is out of my control.
The customer can do whatever he wants with it (perhaps I can exclude
actively reselling in the contract, but that's about it). De facto,
I can't force the customer to only use it on one server, only for
three seats or to enter a relationship with Cincom if they make
money off using my tool.

  Rationale for my claim "I can't": If I try to write that into the
contract, I'm absolutely positively sure I won't get the job. When
I sell something, I can't sell additional burdens with it, not in
the kind of market I'm in.

  So should I ever sell a VW-based app (I'm still pushing VW at
every possibility, sadly I have yet to succeed), I'd just go for
the VAR model and _CERTAINLY_NOT_ tell the customer any details
other than "here's your application, if there's a problem call me,
otherwise have fun".

  From what I've understood, this may violate Cincom's licensing
model since the client might make money using the application? If
that indeed is so, then I see three possibilities:

  - Go ahead as described above, so the client may unknowingly
    violate the license. Not good, I don't want to jeopardize
    the well-being of my clients.
  - Tell the clients about all the intricacies and not make the
    sale at all.
  - Use something other than VW (Squeak, PHP, Java, Visual-du-Jour).

  I'm not really thrilled by any of those alternatives.

  Regards,

        mjl

  Thanks to an off-list discussion with Helge Nowak and a note from
David Buck, I now understand that my concerns have been unnecessary:
a VAR license covers normal "shrink wrapped" software delivery as
long as the client does not start to develop software himself in VW
(either based on my sources or from scratch). As long as that condition
is met, the client can do whatever he wants with my application with
no obligation to talk to Cincom.

  That somehow wasn't clear to me from earlier postings.

  Regards,

        mjl

Yes.  As a VAR, your end customers are free to do what they want.  The only
way they end up paying us (Cincom) is if they decide to maintain/update
that application themselves, separately from what what you are doing.  If
they aren't doing that, then they have no restrictions.

At 09:55 AM 4/12/2006, you wrote:
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

sorry to bark up this tree again but one little clarification does this  
mean that a client can also resell the application and not own anything to  
Cincom? I guess the VAR probably would not be happy with that in the first  
place. I also guess that the language of the VAR agreement protects itself  
 from the obvious potential loopholes.

-Charles

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:12:14 -0400, James Robertson <[hidden email]>  
wrote:



--
Charles A. Monteiro

Nowak, Helge escreveu:
> Dear Martin,
>
> why wouldn't you be able to force your customer to use your tool only on one server or only for
> three seats? That's the way software licenses are sold. And if you preclude reselling of your tool everybody is on the safe side.
>
Helge,

The scenario Martin describes is not of selling a 'software license' but
more a 'custom development' (as the name of the job already implied).

In this case these kind of commercial relationships are seen more like a
sell of services like an engineering consultation and not at all as a
sofware license.

In fact, technically you got paid for all the efforts for the
development so the recipient expects no strings attached to the deal.

Hope this helps in this discussion,

--
Cesar Rabak
GNU/Linux User 52247.
Get counted: http://counter.li.org/

Dear Cesar,

the scenario you describe is a system integrator situation. Or, to be more precise: when you are doing one-time projects and your customer gets/has the rights to the source code you are in a system integrator situation. When you just sell a sealed application this is a VAR situation just discussed.

In a system integrator situation you need a System Integrator license and your customer needs - obviously - an own Corporate or VAR license. There are no strings anywhere.

See: http://smalltalk.cincom.com/prodinformation/index.ssp?content=systemintegrator

HTH
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Cesar Rabak [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Montag, 24. April 2006 20:36
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: AW: Re: AW: Free Software and Cincom Smalltalk
Non-Commercial


Nowak, Helge escreveu:
> Dear Martin,
>
> why wouldn't you be able to force your customer to use your tool only on one server or only for
> three seats? That's the way software licenses are sold. And if you preclude reselling of your tool everybody is on the safe side.
>
Helge,

The scenario Martin describes is not of selling a 'software license' but
more a 'custom development' (as the name of the job already implied).

In this case these kind of commercial relationships are seen more like a
sell of services like an engineering consultation and not at all as a
sofware license.

In fact, technically you got paid for all the efforts for the
development so the recipient expects no strings attached to the deal.

Hope this helps in this discussion,

--
Cesar Rabak
GNU/Linux User 52247.
Get counted: http://counter.li.org/

Nowak, Helge escreveu:
> Dear Cesar,
>
> the scenario you describe is a system integrator situation. Or, to be more precise: when you are doing one-time projects and your customer gets/has the rights to the source code you are in a system integrator situation. When you just sell a sealed application this is a VAR situation just discussed.
>
> In a system integrator situation you need a System Integrator license and your customer needs - obviously - an own Corporate or VAR license. There are no strings anywhere.
>
> See: http://smalltalk.cincom.com/prodinformation/index.ssp?content=systemintegrator
>
> HTH

Yes, at least for me ;-) enlightning.

Thanks,

--
Cesar Rabak
GNU/Linux User 52247.
Get counted: http://counter.li.org/