Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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old (very) good ones are here: Esteban
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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Le 06/03/2017 à 20:30, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
> >> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:43, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> Le 06/03/2017 à 18:43, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit : >>> which VM are you using? >>> >>> this: >>> >>> **PrimitiveFailure** >>> findSubstring:in:startingAt:matchTable: >>> >>> indicates that you are not using a PharoVM… am I right? >> >> I'm using >> https://dl.bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/pharo-linux-x86_64threaded.d7cda15.zip > > old (very) They were new when you announced them. Then they started to segfault, and I must have missed the message where you announced you had a new place for them ;) > good ones are here: > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo-spur64/linux/ > > or here: > > https://dl.bintray.com/pharo-project/pharo-vm/ I've used the one on http://files.pharo.org [1], and it works... as soon as I removed FreeTypeFontProvider current updateFromSystem from my image building script... It seems to be timing out one way or another. Thanks! Thierry [1] http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad
french university with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. <sorry I could not resist> > >> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> We should make it available from the catalog :) > > Yes, it most certainly should be. > > If only we could then tell user to type > > Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter > > to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) > > Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> > >> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >>>> >>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html >>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if >>>> you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >>>> >>>> Also, I see >>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme >>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >>>> >>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >>> >>> I don’t know. >>> It shouldn’t :) >>> >>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and >>> they should be in catalog) :) >>> >>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the >>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware >>> of the two themes policy). >> >> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >> >>> >>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >> >> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for >> P7, yes. >> >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward >> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And >> showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in >> the system. >> >> -- Pavel >> >> >> >> Esteban >> >>> >>> -- Pavel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano >>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, >>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and >>>>> I like in general all this new additions. >>>> >>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated >>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: >>>> My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, >>>> and allow people to install other themes from catalog. >>>> >>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and >>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already >>>> happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and >>>> we needed to clean up, not without problems. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> Esteban >>>> >>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed >>>> to control the flow of issues... >>>> >>>>> >>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a >>>>> good thing. >>>>> >>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen >>>>> version? >>>>> >>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I >>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use >>>>> linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits >>>>> version. >>>>> >>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why >>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. >>>>> >>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that >>>>> meant: >>>>> >>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo >>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that >>>>> causes a callback problem). >>>>> >>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in >>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. >>>>> >>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train >>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >>>>> >>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) >>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need >>>>> them) >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> Esteban >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
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The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem.
Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right… Uko > On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: > > One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university > with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can > go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. > Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. > > <sorry I could not resist> > >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >> >> Yes, it most certainly should be. >> >> If only we could then tell user to type >> >> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >> >> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >> >> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >> >>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >>>>> >>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >>>> >>>> I don’t know. >>>> It shouldn’t :) >>>> >>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :) >>>> >>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy). >>> >>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >>> >>>> >>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >>> >>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes. >>> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >>> >>> -- Pavel >>> >>> >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>>> >>>> -- Pavel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Esteban >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog. >>>>> >>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems. >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> Esteban >>>>> >>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues... >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version? >>>>>> >>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line. >>>>>> >>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant: >>>>>> >>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem). >>>>>> >>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them) >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers, >>>>>> Esteban >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> > > > -- > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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I know, it is just a conflict in goals/objectives/target audience.
I think we can only solve that with 2 versions, an edu and a pro version, that maybe should only differ in a couple of preferences and defaults. > On 6 Mar 2017, at 22:55, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: > > The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. > > Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right… > > Uko > >> On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university >> with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can >> go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >> Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >> >> <sorry I could not resist> >> >>> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >>> >>> Yes, it most certainly should be. >>> >>> If only we could then tell user to type >>> >>> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >>> >>> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >>> >>> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >>> >>>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>>> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >>>>> >>>>> I don’t know. >>>>> It shouldn’t :) >>>>> >>>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :) >>>>> >>>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy). >>>> >>>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >>>> >>>>> >>>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >>>> >>>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >>>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes. >>>> >>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >>>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >>>> >>>> -- Pavel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Esteban >>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Pavel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Esteban >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers, >>>>>> Esteban >>>>>> >>>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues... >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >>>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) >>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>> Esteban >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> > > |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by Uko2
This is not only when teaching. I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. We need an "Airplane mode" switch. Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. Phil On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
I am not sure. I think that there may be many-many distributions. Because now we are talking about one feature of Spotter. There is definitely another tool that has controversial usage. Even with QualityAssistant there are rules which are useful for novices, but annoying for some experienced developers. So then you can have Pro and Newb versions. But as the result you will have Pro/Fast-Internet, Newb/Fast-Internet, Pro/Slow-Internet, Newb/Slow-Internet. I think you get an idea. Yes, now I’m also upset that the feature is not active by default (although I just saved the setting and forgot about it). But in a long run I think that we need a way to modularly compose images for our needs.
Uko > On 6 Mar 2017, at 23:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I know, it is just a conflict in goals/objectives/target audience. > > I think we can only solve that with 2 versions, an edu and a pro version, that maybe should only differ in a couple of preferences and defaults. > >> On 6 Mar 2017, at 22:55, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. >> >> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time anyway convincing the other side that we are right… >> >> Uko >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad french university >>> with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros only and we can >>> go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >>> Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >>> >>> <sorry I could not resist> >>> >>>> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >>>> >>>> Yes, it most certainly should be. >>>> >>>> If only we could then tell user to type >>>> >>>> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >>>> >>>> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >>>> >>>> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >>>> >>>>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>>> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I see https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t know. >>>>>> It shouldn’t :) >>>>>> >>>>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and they should be in catalog) :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the two themes policy). >>>>> >>>>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >>>>> >>>>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >>>>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait for P7, yes. >>>>> >>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >>>>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >>>>> >>>>> -- Pavel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Esteban >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Pavel >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Esteban >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phil >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like in general all this new additions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people to install other themes from catalog. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to clean up, not without problems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed to control the flow of issues... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a good thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) frozen version? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why Spotter does not shows search line. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that meant: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >>>>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a callback problem). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in general deserves a lot of testing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip (linux) >>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need them) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>> >> >> > > |
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In reply to this post by philippeback
On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is not only when teaching. > > I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. > > Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. > > We need an "Airplane mode" switch. That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent mode button on the background, or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. cheers -ben > > Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. > > Phil > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities >> with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and >> they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their >> offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now >> we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. >> Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the >> plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do >> a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) >> Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of >> automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to >> have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can >> install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing >> you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. >> >> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just >> set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time >> anyway convincing the other side that we are right… >> >> Uko >> >> > On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> > One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad >> > french university >> > with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros >> > only and we can >> > go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >> > Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >> > >> > <sorry I could not resist> >> > >> >> >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >> >> >> >> Yes, it most certainly should be. >> >> >> >> If only we could then tell user to type >> >> >> >> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >> >> >> >> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >> >> >> >> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >> >> >> >>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >>> >> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html >> >>>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you >> >>>>> put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Also, I see >> >>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme >> >>>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >> >>>> >> >>>> I don’t know. >> >>>> It shouldn’t :) >> >>>> >> >>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and >> >>>> they should be in catalog) :) >> >>>> >> >>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the >> >>>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the >> >>>> two themes policy). >> >>> >> >>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >> >>> >> >>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >> >>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait >> >>> for P7, yes. >> >>> >> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >> >>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward >> >>> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed >> >>> again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >> >>> >> >>> -- Pavel >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Esteban >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- Pavel >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Esteban >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Phil >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano >> >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, >> >>>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like >> >>>>>> in general all this new additions. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated >> >>>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea >> >>>>> is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people >> >>>>> to install other themes from catalog. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and >> >>>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened >> >>>>> that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to >> >>>>> clean up, not without problems. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> cheers, >> >>>>> Esteban >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed >> >>>>> to control the flow of issues... >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a >> >>>>>> good thing. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) >> >>>>>> frozen version? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I >> >>>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and >> >>>>>> mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why >> >>>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that >> >>>>>> meant: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >> >>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo >> >>>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a >> >>>>>> callback problem). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in >> >>>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train >> >>>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip >> >>>>>> (linux) >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need >> >>>>>> them) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> cheers, >> >>>>>> Esteban >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> > >> >> > |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo. Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100% Phil On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by philippeback
:) I think that just having a setting and turning it on in the preferences is the way to go. Stef
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by philippeback
On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 04:03:12PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo. > > Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100% To me it seems like bad engineering. One does not query a network synchronously and expect things to just work (or work at all). We should take a hint from Node and JS and promises about handling this. This is a basic requirement that any novice JS web developer knows how to handle. Speaking of the opposite, I noticed that loading projects in Pharo 6 no longer completely freezes the UI (unlike 5), which is *thumbs up*. :) Peter > > Phil > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and > > does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of > > the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would > > make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude > > the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. > > > > Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No > > Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for > > pharo tool developers to use ? Yes > > > > I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big > > compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to > > working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to > > attract a lot more new users. > > > > My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo > > code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by > > the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but > > thats a completely different thing. > > > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > > >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for- > >> Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> > >> wrote: > >> > This is not only when teaching. > >> > > >> > I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. > >> > > >> > Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. > >> > > >> > We need an "Airplane mode" switch. > >> > >> That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. > >> Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, > >> so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent > >> mode button on the background, > >> or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. > >> > >> cheers -ben > >> > >> > > >> > Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. > >> > > >> > Phil > >> > > >> > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities > >> >> with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I > >> tried) and > >> >> they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in > >> their > >> >> offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. > >> Until now > >> >> we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one > >> exactly. > >> >> Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the > >> >> plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed > >> to do > >> >> a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) > >> >> Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it > >> of > >> >> automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be > >> to > >> >> have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can > >> >> install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is > >> nothing > >> >> you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. > >> >> > >> >> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them > >> just > >> >> set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time > >> >> anyway convincing the other side that we are right… > >> >> > >> >> Uko > >> >> > >> >> > On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that > >> bad > >> >> > french university > >> >> > with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 > >> Euros > >> >> > only and we can > >> >> > go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. > >> >> > Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. > >> >> > > >> >> > <sorry I could not resist> > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> We should make it available from the catalog :) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes, it most certainly should be. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If only we could then tell user to type > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter > >> >> >> > >> >> >> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email] > >> > > >> >> >>>> wrote: > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email] > >> >: > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator- > >> simple/7294/artifact/report.html > >> >> >>>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should > >> b/c if you > >> >> >>>>> put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Also, I see > >> >> >>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate- > >> code-from-SublimishTheme > >> >> >>>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> I don’t know. > >> >> >>>> It shouldn’t :) > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it > >> (and > >> >> >>>> they should be in catalog) :) > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the > >> >> >>>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not > >> aware of the > >> >> >>>> two themes policy). > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. > >> >> >>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait > >> >> >>> for P7, yes. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme > >> >> >>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it > >> forward > >> >> >>> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. > >> And showed > >> >> >>> again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in > >> the system. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- Pavel > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Esteban > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> -- Pavel > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Esteban > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Phil > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano > >> >> >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email] > >> > > >> >> >>>>>> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Hi, > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my > >> use, > >> >> >>>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, > >> and I like > >> >> >>>>>> in general all this new additions. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated > >> >> >>>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated > >> DarkMetalTheme: My idea > >> >> >>>>> is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and > >> allow people > >> >> >>>>> to install other themes from catalog. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility > >> and > >> >> >>>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already > >> happened > >> >> >>>>> that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we > >> needed to > >> >> >>>>> clean up, not without problems. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> cheers, > >> >> >>>>> Esteban > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I > >> failed > >> >> >>>>> to control the flow of issues... > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements > >> so a > >> >> >>>>>> good thing. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) > >> >> >>>>>> frozen version? > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. > >> If I > >> >> >>>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that > >> use linux and > >> >> >>>>>> mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example > >> why > >> >> >>>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that > >> >> >>>>>> meant: > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI > >> >> >>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for > >> Cairo > >> >> >>>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that > >> causes a > >> >> >>>>>> callback problem). > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in > >> >> >>>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the > >> train > >> >> >>>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip > >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip > >> >> >>>>>> (linux) > >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip > >> (mac) > >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you > >> need > >> >> >>>>>> them) > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> cheers, > >> >> >>>>>> Esteban > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by philippeback
I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello.
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Dimitris,
but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have? Uko
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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Guys,
Please stop speculating, no it is not Monticello, no it is not HTTP access, no it is not networking itself, it is DNS resolution, in a very specific situation: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName-sometimes-hangs-when-there-is-no-network Note also that many, many people deploy Pharo in production contexts with heavy multi threading and networking loads with great success - that would not be possible if we did not get the basics right. Sven > On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:31, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Dimitris, > > but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have? > > Uko > >> On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello. >> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo. >> >> Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100% >> >> Phil >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. >> >> Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No >> Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes >> >> I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users. >> >> My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing. >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > This is not only when teaching. >> > >> > I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. >> > >> > Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. >> > >> > We need an "Airplane mode" switch. >> >> That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. >> Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, >> so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent >> mode button on the background, >> or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> > >> > Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. >> > >> > Phil >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities >> >> with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and >> >> they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their >> >> offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now >> >> we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. >> >> Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the >> >> plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do >> >> a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) >> >> Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of >> >> automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to >> >> have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can >> >> install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing >> >> you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. >> >> >> >> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just >> >> set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time >> >> anyway convincing the other side that we are right… >> >> >> >> Uko >> >> >> >> > On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad >> >> > french university >> >> > with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros >> >> > only and we can >> >> > go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >> >> > Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >> >> > >> >> > <sorry I could not resist> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, it most certainly should be. >> >> >> >> >> >> If only we could then tell user to type >> >> >> >> >> >> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >> >> >> >> >> >> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >> >> >> >> >> >>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html >> >> >>>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you >> >> >>>>> put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Also, I see >> >> >>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme >> >> >>>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I don’t know. >> >> >>>> It shouldn’t :) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and >> >> >>>> they should be in catalog) :) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the >> >> >>>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the >> >> >>>> two themes policy). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >> >> >>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait >> >> >>> for P7, yes. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >> >> >>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward >> >> >>> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed >> >> >>> again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- Pavel >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Esteban >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> -- Pavel >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Esteban >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Phil >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano >> >> >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Hi, >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, >> >> >>>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like >> >> >>>>>> in general all this new additions. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated >> >> >>>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea >> >> >>>>> is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people >> >> >>>>> to install other themes from catalog. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and >> >> >>>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened >> >> >>>>> that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to >> >> >>>>> clean up, not without problems. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> cheers, >> >> >>>>> Esteban >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed >> >> >>>>> to control the flow of issues... >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a >> >> >>>>>> good thing. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) >> >> >>>>>> frozen version? >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I >> >> >>>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and >> >> >>>>>> mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why >> >> >>>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that >> >> >>>>>> meant: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >> >> >>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo >> >> >>>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a >> >> >>>>>> callback problem). >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in >> >> >>>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train >> >> >>>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip >> >> >>>>>> (linux) >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need >> >> >>>>>> them) >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> cheers, >> >> >>>>>> Esteban >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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In reply to this post by Uko2
Then fix Monticello and Spotter. Blocking the main thread this way is a very bad coding practice that coders should be aware of because even with a spaceship mode will still happen. Why make an extremely complex partially documented environment, even more complex. It's a Spotter bug not a Pharo design flaw. Plus an airplane mode makes zero sense, this 2017 , everything is connected to the internet nowadays. Airplane mode is used only on airplanes and even in their case it's supposed to be temporary for take off and landing. Disconnects and slow downs should be one of the first thing any code must deal with. Disabling internet connection ability is not a bug fix is monkey patching.
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 at 10:32, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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No it is not a Spotter bug, Spotter uses multi threading very well. So well you did not see it ;-)
UI Monticello actions do indeed block the main UI thread, like almost all other tool actions. That is not necessarily bad, you want to wait for them. Monticello HTTP operations do have proper timeouts on networking. > On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:45, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Then fix Monticello and Spotter. Blocking the main thread this way is a very bad coding practice that coders should be aware of because even with a spaceship mode will still happen. Why make an extremely complex partially documented environment, even more complex. It's a Spotter bug not a Pharo design flaw. Plus an airplane mode makes zero sense, this 2017 , everything is connected to the internet nowadays. Airplane mode is used only on airplanes and even in their case it's supposed to be temporary for take off and landing. Disconnects and slow downs should be one of the first thing any code must deal with. Disabling internet connection ability is not a bug fix is monkey patching. > On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 at 10:32, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: > Dimitris, > > but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have? > > Uko > >> On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello. >> >> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo. >> >> Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100% >> >> Phil >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. >> >> Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No >> Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes >> >> I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users. >> >> My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing. >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > This is not only when teaching. >> > >> > I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. >> > >> > Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. >> > >> > We need an "Airplane mode" switch. >> >> That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. >> Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, >> so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent >> mode button on the background, >> or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> > >> > Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. >> > >> > Phil >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities >> >> with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and >> >> they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their >> >> offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now >> >> we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. >> >> Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the >> >> plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do >> >> a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) >> >> Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of >> >> automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to >> >> have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can >> >> install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing >> >> you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. >> >> >> >> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just >> >> set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time >> >> anyway convincing the other side that we are right… >> >> >> >> Uko >> >> >> >> > On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad >> >> > french university >> >> > with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros >> >> > only and we can >> >> > go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >> >> > Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >> >> > >> >> > <sorry I could not resist> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, it most certainly should be. >> >> >> >> >> >> If only we could then tell user to type >> >> >> >> >> >> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >> >> >> >> >> >> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >> >> >> >> >> >>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html >> >> >>>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you >> >> >>>>> put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Also, I see >> >> >>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme >> >> >>>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I don’t know. >> >> >>>> It shouldn’t :) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and >> >> >>>> they should be in catalog) :) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the >> >> >>>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the >> >> >>>> two themes policy). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >> >> >>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait >> >> >>> for P7, yes. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >> >> >>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward >> >> >>> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed >> >> >>> again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- Pavel >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Esteban >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> -- Pavel >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Esteban >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Phil >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano >> >> >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> >> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Hi, >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, >> >> >>>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like >> >> >>>>>> in general all this new additions. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated >> >> >>>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea >> >> >>>>> is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people >> >> >>>>> to install other themes from catalog. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and >> >> >>>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened >> >> >>>>> that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to >> >> >>>>> clean up, not without problems. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> cheers, >> >> >>>>> Esteban >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed >> >> >>>>> to control the flow of issues... >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a >> >> >>>>>> good thing. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) >> >> >>>>>> frozen version? >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I >> >> >>>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and >> >> >>>>>> mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why >> >> >>>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that >> >> >>>>>> meant: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >> >> >>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo >> >> >>>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a >> >> >>>>>> callback problem). >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in >> >> >>>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train >> >> >>>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip >> >> >>>>>> (linux) >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >> >> >>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need >> >> >>>>>> them) >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> cheers, >> >> >>>>>> Esteban >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > |
Re: Frozen is melted (can you guys please be patient?)
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On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 11:09 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: No it is not a Spotter bug, Spotter uses multi threading very well. So well you did not see it ;-) Frankly I never had an issue with Spotter and my internet connection used to be abysmal, top 200kb/s if I was lucky , sometime dropping down to 10kb/s. Still happen at times but it has been fixed and now I get a usual 1mb/s and I feel like I am in heaven. I use monticello and Spotter all the time, Spotter never went cookoo on me. Monticello on the other hand has this bad habit when one makes a local commit, I am using only git with pharo for ages now via filetree, of contacting servers which to me at least makes zero sense , after it was explained to me why it became bellow zero sense. So basically if the connection is dropped , Monticello fails which is bad , but if connection becomes slow, Monticello freezes which is much worse. And to be Frank once more, I have stopped (not completely I still using it part time) using Pharo since I failed to integrate it to my workflow and I am back coding in Python for reasons that are technical and personal. Nonetheless I want to see Pharo succeed and for doing so we live in a time that simplicity of code design is a huge deal to a world of ever evolving more complex code. So my object is simple: Do not make Pharo code more complex , please. Of course I can be blamed for wanting to turn Pharo into Python, but I do not mind such blame. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Yes, you are right Sven.
When I disable network the Spotter is not freezing. Do we have a way to do the DNS resolution asynchronously? I mean, is it doable in Pharo 7 or it is a big problem. I’m not an expert in the questions that require VM, but it seams that http requests can be executed without blocking the UI thread, is it possible to resolve DNS in the same way? Uko P.S. why there are TWO checkboxes in Settings for the catalog plugin in Spotter? And they are not synchronized by the way, so you need to turn on both. > On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:41, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Guys, > > Please stop speculating, no it is not Monticello, no it is not HTTP access, no it is not networking itself, it is DNS resolution, in a very specific situation: > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName-sometimes-hangs-when-there-is-no-network > > Note also that many, many people deploy Pharo in production contexts with heavy multi threading and networking loads with great success - that would not be possible if we did not get the basics right. > > Sven > >> On 9 Mar 2017, at 09:31, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Dimitris, >> >> but AFAIK when Spotter freezes it’s not using Metacello. It does an http request to pharo catalog. Isn’t this a problem with http request blocking the only thread that we have? >> >> Uko >> >>> On 9 Mar 2017, at 08:23, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I do not need to, the problem is obvious as the sun when one uses Monticello which can easily freeze the image on a slow connection. Still it's a Monticello problem, not a Pharo problem. But then that's not the most serious problem with Monticello. >>> >>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 at 17:04, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> I see you are not teaching to people or running demos in a crowd with Pharo. >>> >>> Otherwise, you would get the point I can tell you 100% >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Frankly I fail to see the problem, if a tool connects to the internet and does not have some sort of timeout or speed check then is the obligation of the tool to fix that and not of Pharo to offer an airplane mode. Its would make an already complex pharo environment even more complex. Not to exclude the fact that having two mode will create useless confusion for beginners. >>> >>> Offer a new mode for Pharo ? No >>> Offer methods that check internet connectivity and internet speed for pharo tool developers to use ? Yes >>> >>> I feel that Pharo can be simplified down to 1% without the need for a big compromise on features. Maybe it does not matter for us that are used to working with Blender but its a huge deal for beginners and if we want to attract a lot more new users. >>> >>> My dream is that version 8 be dedicated ONLY to simplifying the Pharo code, by removing all the extra fat. No new bug fixes (unless created by the removal of the code), no new features. I know we have bootstrap , but thats a completely different thing. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19818/Support-for-Airplane-mode-in-Pharo for keeping track of this >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 6:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> This is not only when teaching. >>>> >>>> I was at a conference today and showcased some Grafoscopio. >>>> >>>> Spotty wifi and crowded bandwith makes it bad looking. >>>> >>>> We need an "Airplane mode" switch. >>> >>> That is a cool way to describe it. A well know paradigm. >>> Its a setting that probably would change daya to day more than any other, >>> so perhaps it would even be reasonable to have this as a permanent >>> mode button on the background, >>> or the task bar much like MS Windows taskbar status icons. >>> >>> cheers -ben >>> >>>> >>>> Maybe can we have that available in the session from the settings. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The problem is that there are people who give lectures in universities >>>>> with bad internet (internet is bad in most of the universities I tried) and >>>>> they done want freezes. On the other hand we have people who sit in their >>>>> offices with fast machines, fast internet and they want features. Until now >>>>> we were looking at how to satisfy one of the groups and which one exactly. >>>>> Why not to try finding a solution for both. For example we can have the >>>>> plugging enabled by default and have Spotter measuring the time needed to do >>>>> a query. Whenever the time surpasses frustration limit (10 sec? I duno) >>>>> Spotter will ask if the user wants to turn off the plugin, of turns it of >>>>> automatically and tells where to re-enable it. The other way would be to >>>>> have known plugins to appear at the bottom of Spotter, and a user can >>>>> install/enable them with one click. So when you search but there is nothing >>>>> you know that there are more plugins that may solve your problem. >>>>> >>>>> Yes it is more complicated to implement in in a smart way rather them just >>>>> set the default boolean value of a setting, but we spend too much time >>>>> anyway convincing the other side that we are right… >>>>> >>>>> Uko >>>>> >>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 21:30, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> One day I would like to invite you to give a lecture in a not that bad >>>>>> french university >>>>>> with a not that good network. Each time Pharo freezes you pay me 5 Euros >>>>>> only and we can >>>>>> go and pay some really expensive restaurant with your money. >>>>>> Simple on my machine it times out every five minutes. >>>>>> >>>>>> <sorry I could not resist> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 19:51, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We should make it available from the catalog :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, it most certainly should be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If only we could then tell user to type >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shift-Enter Sublimish Enter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to install it using Spotter right from the catalog ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, I couldn't resist ... <ducking> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2017-03-06 9:29 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 09:22, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2017-03-06 8:20 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:57, [hidden email] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Issue-Validator-simple/7294/artifact/report.html >>>>>>>>>> is not integrated for some Monkey reason anyway - still should b/c if you >>>>>>>>>> put sublimish, you need a decent matching Spotter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, I see >>>>>>>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19796/Remove-duplicate-code-from-SublimishTheme >>>>>>>>>> on 5/3. If this moves forward, why not the other one? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> BTW Sublimish was an extra thing. Who got that in image? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don’t know. >>>>>>>>> It shouldn’t :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What we should do is to create a page for themes and links to it (and >>>>>>>>> they should be in catalog) :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, it was me who proposed the slice and yes, I was aware of the >>>>>>>>> fact that I should not do it because of code freeze (I was not aware of the >>>>>>>>> two themes policy). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it is not a policy, it is just the idea I have :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We can remove it again, I will prepare a slice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> problem with it is that is makes ripples. >>>>>>>> If community want it (is nice), we can include it, but I would wait >>>>>>>> for P7, yes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19801/Remove-SublimishTheme >>>>>>>> At least it was an advertisement for this theme that moved it forward >>>>>>>> and the integration of it helped to improve the dark theme too. And showed >>>>>>>> again how much we need the concept of palettes used strictly in the system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Pavel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- Pavel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phil >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano >>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 6 Mar 2017, at 07:17, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, let me be clear: I *like* sublimish theme (not for my use, >>>>>>>>>>> but I like it), and I like (a lot) the windows list on spotter, and I like >>>>>>>>>>> in general all this new additions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> By the way, even if I like it, I would not have integrated >>>>>>>>>> SublimishTheme. For same reason I didn’t integrated DarkMetalTheme: My idea >>>>>>>>>> is to have just two themes *in image*: one white, one dark, and allow people >>>>>>>>>> to install other themes from catalog. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why? Because each class inside image becomes our responsibility and >>>>>>>>>> then a maintainability issue. With themes in particular already happened >>>>>>>>>> that existing themes became abandonware inside the image and we needed to >>>>>>>>>> clean up, not without problems. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ps: which means also yes: that issue got integrated because I failed >>>>>>>>>> to control the flow of issues... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And I know, most of those additions are usability enhancements so a >>>>>>>>>>> good thing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But can you guys stop pushing new features into a (in theory) >>>>>>>>>>> frozen version? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pharo 7 will arrive soon… *if* we can fix all things missing. If I >>>>>>>>>>> can suggest an orientation, it would be good, for those that use linux and >>>>>>>>>>> mac (windows is not ready), to test and help fix 64bits version. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are still plenty of bugs to fix there, like for example why >>>>>>>>>>> Spotter does not shows search line. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Last week I added support to Athens and SDL2 in 64bits but that >>>>>>>>>>> meant: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - some important changes in UFFI >>>>>>>>>>> - discover something that seems is failing on callbacks for Cairo >>>>>>>>>>> (no idea if it is a callbacks problem or an image problem that causes a >>>>>>>>>>> callback problem). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would say all this and the fact we are working on 64bits in >>>>>>>>>>> general deserves a lot of testing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I will add links in Pharo page to download 64bits (I’m at the train >>>>>>>>>>> now), but in the mean time you can download all from here: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo-64.zip >>>>>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-linux-latest.zip >>>>>>>>>>> (linux) >>>>>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/pharo64-mac-latest.zip (mac) >>>>>>>>>>> http://files.pharo.org/get-files/60/sources.zip (in case you need >>>>>>>>>>> them) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > |
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