Frustrated with Squeak and Magma

I'm having a hard time getting Magma installed.

I go to http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2657 which suggests
installing Magma via Monticello, which I have no idea how to use and
I've been avoiding trying to have to use. I add the URL it gives as a
repository and view it in the Monticello browser. I see various
packages. When I click particular files it makes Squeak completely
unresponsive while it downloads information on that file, for each
one.

I select the Magma client and server but when I click the "load"
button I get scary errors about it depending on many classes that
start with "Ma" which I don't have. I figure it's other stuff also
hosted on that repository so I tell it to proceed and load regardless.
I start doing this with several other packages in order until I get
actual message not understood errors.

I want to scream because I have no idea whether I'm doing things right
or not and I can't figure out how to help myself.

Could someone post an image with Seaside and Magma up and working
properly? (I got Seaside to work just fine - it just worked.)

Thanks.

Warren
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Warren Henning wrote:
> Could someone post an image with Seaside and Magma up and working
> properly?

There was one posted just 14 hours ago, on this very list. See:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/seaside/2006-September/008949.html

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On 9/5/06, Yanni Chiu <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/seaside/2006-September/008949.html
>

Sorry, I didn't read it because of the cryptic title. Thanks.
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On 9/5/06, Yanni Chiu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Warren Henning wrote:
> > Could someone post an image with Seaside and Magma up and working
> > properly?
>
> There was one posted just 14 hours ago, on this very list. See:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/seaside/2006-September/008949.html

It comes preloaded with Seaside ready to go. What's the admin/username
password set as?
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On 9/5/06, Warren Henning <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It comes preloaded with Seaside ready to go. What's the admin/username
> password set as?
>

Oh, seaside/admin, which I found by printing out: WAUserConfiguration
allInstances do: [:ea | Transcript show: ea localValues; cr].
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the html object being passed to renderContentOn is of class
WARenderCanvas, not WAHTMLRenderer? i tried the changes in the
tutorial ( http://beta4.com/seaside2/tutorial.html ), it didn't work
(message not understood), then i tried changing it back to the way it
was before and it still didn't work. it didn't want to let me do
anchorWithAction. i don't understand.

warren
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Warren Henning wrote:
> the html object being passed to renderContentOn is of class
> WARenderCanvas, not WAHTMLRenderer? i tried the changes in the
> tutorial ( http://beta4.com/seaside2/tutorial.html ), it didn't work
> (message not understood), then i tried changing it back to the way it
> was before and it still didn't work. it didn't want to let me do
> anchorWithAction. i don't understand.
>
> warren
Dear Warren,

there are two rendering API's, one is provided by WAHtmlRenderer and the
newer one is provided
by WARenderCanvas. Each component selects which to use by setting
#rendererClass

It appears that the tutorial is using the old one #anchorWithAction is
an WAHtmlRenderer method.

Keith

               
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Warren Henning wrote:
> On 9/5/06, Warren Henning <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It comes preloaded with Seaside ready to go. What's the admin/username
>> password set as?
>>
>
> Oh, seaside/admin, which I found by printing out: WAUserConfiguration
> allInstances do: [:ea | Transcript show: ea localValues; cr].  
In the latest preloaded image this information is written in the
workspace notes
(it may have been missing from the earlier preloaded image notes)

Keith

               
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"Warren Henning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm having a hard time getting Magma installed.
>
> I go to http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2657 which suggests
> installing Magma via Monticello, which I have no idea how to use and
> I've been avoiding trying to have to use.

Developing with Squeak these days and refusing to learn Monticello is
pretty hard.

> I add the URL it gives as a
> repository and view it in the Monticello browser. I see various
> packages. When I click particular files it makes Squeak completely
> unresponsive while it downloads information on that file, for each
> one.

Yes, it actually downloads the complete revision since they are zip
files and needs to b decompressed in order to be analyzed and shown info
about.
 
> I select the Magma client and server but when I click the "load"
> button I get scary errors about it depending on many classes that

Is there any reason why you did not read the entire Swiki page above? :)
Even though it doesn't spit it out in BOLD it actually does tell you
which packages to install. If you want the easiest to get started with
option I would suggest you install the latest of: MagmaServerLoader

Since it contains both client and server side code you can then run
Magma "locally" and do not have to set up another Squeak process acting
as server.

> I want to scream because I have no idea whether I'm doing things right
> or not and I can't figure out how to help myself.

Reading more than the first paragraph of the mentioned swiki page is a
good start. :) :)

regards, Göran
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On 9/6/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Reading more than the first paragraph of the mentioned swiki page is a
> good start. :) :)

You're pretty clever and stuff, I'm impressed. The best way to grow
the Squeak community is to poorly document everything and then be
snotty to people who find it frustrating (don't let this stop you from
claiming Smalltalk is God's gift to computer programming). I recommend
more gradients, more pictures of mouses, and possibly other measures
to to make the UI widgets even more non-standard, less usable, and
ugly than they already are. Keep driving away new people and you'll be
a winner.
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Hi Warren,

> > Reading more than the first paragraph of the mentioned swiki page is a
> > good start. :) :)

I wrote the wiki page which describes how to integrate Magma and Seaside on
Squeak 3.8.

If you are willing to pursue this, could you describe how far you got.

Brent
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On Sep 6, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Warren Henning wrote:
>
> You're pretty clever and stuff, I'm impressed. The best way to grow
> the Squeak community is to poorly document everything and then be
> snotty to people who find it frustrating (don't let this stop you from
> claiming Smalltalk is God's gift to computer programming). I recommend
> more gradients, more pictures of mouses, and possibly other measures
> to to make the UI widgets even more non-standard, less usable, and
> ugly than they already are. Keep driving away new people and you'll be
> a winner.

You must remember that for a lot of people on this list English may  
not be there first language. The nuances that come natural for some  
my not for others.  Also informal textual dialog lacks expression and  
it is quite easy to take things the wrong way.

As for your above comments. Better documentation and native UIs are  
two things that have seen a lot of discussion and need a lot of work.  
The great thing about the Seaside/Squeak community at the moment is  
that it is small but because of it's size resources are limited. If  
you want to improve on things just jump right in, get familiar with a  
project, and add some polish.

The Magma developers have done a tremendous amount of work to provide  
a product at no cost. I have experienced some frustration at Magma  
installation as well but we must remember that the Magma team has  
gifted you a tremendous amount of code and knowledge. I for one am  
thankful for their efforts.

Respect is a two way street.

Thanks
Will

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Hi Warren!

"Warren Henning" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 9/6/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Reading more than the first paragraph of the mentioned swiki page is a
> > good start. :) :)
>
> You're pretty clever and stuff, I'm impressed.

Mmmm.

> The best way to grow
> the Squeak community is to poorly document everything and then be
> snotty to people who find it frustrating (don't let this stop you from
> claiming Smalltalk is God's gift to computer programming). I recommend
> more gradients, more pictures of mouses, and possibly other measures
> to to make the UI widgets even more non-standard, less usable, and
> ugly than they already are. Keep driving away new people and you'll be
> a winner.

Oh boy. Ok, let me take this as a list (and yes, I am a bit annoyed
while writing this and I know I should not post in that state of mind -
but whatever):

1. I sprinkled my email with smileys. They have a meaning. Sure, there
was a little itsy bit of "criticism" in there - because the Swiki page
about Magma installation is short and explains what to install. Take it.

2. I would say that your original post was a bit "snotty" as you put it
- but *without* the smileys:
        "I want to scream because I have no idea whether I'm doing things right
        or not and I can't figure out how to help myself."

3. I actually wrote *answers* didn't I? Do you think I bothered to write
down answers and post them to you only in order to be "snotty"? No. I
was trying to help you and also making a little point (I admit) that you
might have read the installation note a little bit more closely. I stand
by that.

4. This continuous notion (among many newcomers) that we (oldtimers or
whatever) are somehow in debt to "you" is beyond me. We welcome
beginners and we are aware of several issues with Squeak etc - but we
sure don't need to feel guilty for not doing things that you seem to
think that we should be doing or should already have done. In short - we
owe you nada. This is open source. Dig in, be happy, have fun, get help,
help us - ...or don't.

5. Magma is a one man tour de force (Chris Muller). He has documented it
quite a bit, I use Magma and it is a marvellous piece of software. If
you have a question about it he might appreciate that you actually post
to the mailinglist of Magma (and not Seaside). Chris is always awfully
helpful.

6. The best way to get really fast help is actually to meet up on IRC.
If you happen to drop by and see "gokr", then that is me. I will gladly
help you with Squeak, I know quite a bit of how things work and I gladly
spend some of my time helping newbies - as many can attest.

7. Even if Seaside is an active list you might be better off using
Squeak-dev. More people.

8. Racking down on Squeak and "us" doesn't really make us feel *more*
inclined to help. Just a reflection.

Ok, "my steam is blown off" and now I am happy again. :)

So welcome to our community and let's start over! Any other question? (I
am being sincere, really) And did you get Magma installed? Did my
answers help?

regards, Göran
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> I select the Magma client and server but when I click the "load"
> button I get scary errors about it depending on many classes that
> start with "Ma" which I don't have. I figure it's other stuff also
> hosted on that repository so I tell it to proceed and load
> regardless.
> I start doing this with several other packages in order until I get
> actual message not understood errors.

Hi Warren, for future reference, the page "Installing Magma" can offer
guidance.

  http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/2657

 - Chris

PS - I will notice Magma-specific questions quickly on the Magma
mailing list.

  http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5818





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Hi warren

I can understand that you get mad at us (especially with the mouse :))
But we are trying to improve the situation. Look at 3.9 when it will  
be out.
Just let us know what is getting in your way so that we can improve.

Smalltalk and seaside are cool. Now this is clear that this could  
better (and I can tell
you that can be an order of magnitude much harsher than you :)). What  
I suggest is
report the problems and when you will have fun and master that help us.
Because we also need to sleep :)

Stef


On 6 sept. 06, at 17:39, Warren Henning wrote:

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