Fwd: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But it is not Amber!

> From: Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But it is not Amber!
> Date: May 16, 2013 6:42:22 PM GMT+02:00
> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>, esug-list <[hidden email]>, Amber ML <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>
> Il 16/05/2013 17:38, Alejandro F. Reimondo ha scritto:
>> Hi Paolo,
>>
>> As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not
>> subscribed,
>> please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the
>> point clear
>> to persons that can read your email.
>
> Sure.
>
>>> The main system is at
>>> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html.  It has
>>> a "MIT Licensed" link to the license, but it fails to list the
>>> copyright holders.
>>
>> The page do not load ok if you are using IE.
>> Please try it on Chrome or other webbrowser.
>> In case you must load the page in IE, press F5 to refresh
>> the page a few times and it will work :-)
>
> I was using Firefox.
>
>> The license terms in an open system can change through time
>> and can be read in case the system is working ok.
>
> I think you're confusing permissive license terms with "public domain".
> When someone releases code under a permissive (non-copyleft) license,
> they are not giving away their copyright.  They are keeping the
> copyright, and granting to you the *license* to use the work according
> to the license text.  In the  MIT license you can read:
>
> * The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
> * included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
>
> Your website is including the permission notice, but not the copyright
> notice.  The source is including both, but there is no easy way to find
> it.  As things are, you are not respecting the license.
>
> Also, you're confusing ideas (which cannot be copyrighted) with code.
> Of course the _ideas_ in a modern Smalltalk environment formed slowly
> during the past 41 years.  And everybody is free to conceive a
> JavaScript implementation of Smalltalk.  But if the idea is "translated
> into code" by cut-and-paste of someone else's work, you must acknowledge
> that work and their authors.
>
> For example, the Stream libraries of GNU Smalltalk and Pharo implement
> the same interface.  I _never_ looked at Pharo code (much less
> cut-and-pasted it) when writing it, hence I can say that the entire
> copyright of that code is mine.  If I had taken code from Pharo, I
> should have added a "Copyright (C) 2011 the Pharo authors" or something
> like that.
>
> I'm sure there is no malice in your action, but you should correct the
> references to the license so that they also include the copyright
> holders.  And your FAQ should not contain evasive answers, nor downplay
> copyright.  If someone asked you if U8 is a derivative of Jtalk or
> Amber, the best thing to do is to answer that clearly, perhaps even
> provide a reference to the version of the code that you forked from.  It
> would let interested people backport bugfixes from Jtalk/Amber to U8,
> for example.
>
> Most importantly, remember that this is not about culture, it is about
> _law_.  Do the same thing tomorrow to someone less friendly than
> Nicolas, and you might get in court.
>
> I suggest reading
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source-software/github-needs-take-open-source-seriously-208046.
>
>> If the system has errors (the case with IE) it can fail to show
>> the license terms, at the current state of the system.
>
> This was not the case.
>
> Paolo
>
>> I have written a response to Nicolas with more information
>> about S8 images running on diferent execution environments
>> and license terms.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Ale.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paolo Bonzini" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Nicolas Petton" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "esug-list" <[hidden email]>; "Amber ML"
>> <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>; "Alejandro F.
>> Reimondo" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Esug-list] It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber… But
>> it is not Amber!
>>
>>
>> Il 16/05/2013 15:15, Nicolas Petton ha scritto:
>>>>> Now maybe I'm just too stupid and I " have not reached the
>>>>> understanding of Smalltalk required to adopt a POV consistent with
>>>>> S8"...
>>
>> This certainly makes no sense, apart from the snarkiness.
>>
>> The text that Guido found is from
>> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/147/index.html, but
>> there's no reason to believe that it extends to more than that project.
>>
>> The main system is at
>> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html.  It has
>> a "MIT Licensed" link to the license, but it fails to list the
>> copyright holders.
>>
>> The source code at
>> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/smalltalking/64/u8.image.js does
>> list copyright holders:
>>
>> ------------
>> S8 - Basic U8 image.
>> Copyright (C) 2013 - http://u8.smalltalking.net/u8.html
>> Copyright (C) 2013 Alejandro F. Reimondo
>> <[hidden email]> http://www.aleReimondo.com
>>
>> Parts of source code written for Jtalk, Copyright (C) 2011 by Nicolas
>> Petton <[hidden email]>
>> Also code and ideas from Clamato (http://clamato.net), written by Avi
>> Byrant.
>> The PetitParser library, published by Lukas Renggli
>> (http://lukas-renggli.ch) and released under the MIT license.
>> And people that contributed to Smalltalk on diverse media
>> years(decades) before this license holders claimed ownership.
>> -------------
>>
>> It would be nice if it were a bit easier to find...
>>
>> Paolo
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>