Fwd: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!

> From: Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
> Date: May 17, 2013 9:48:22 AM GMT+02:00
> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>, Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]>, esug-list <[hidden email]>, Amber ML <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>
> Il 16/05/2013 22:35, Alejandro F. Reimondo ha scritto:
>> I can't accept a dependency on your changes to sources
>> of your projects after my last download.
>
> Yes, I think this is fair.
>
>> In case where we open smalltalk tools (compact or WI8 mode)
>> we have a link to show the sources in the page, and the
>> link works ok... if the tools work.
>> So, developers (who can see source) can read the license.
>
> That's not enough.  Everyone must be able to read the license and the
> copyright notice, not just developers who can see the source.
>
> It's not just "the source" that is a derivative work.  S8 is a
> derivative work, period.
>
>>> Your FAQ cannot stay evasive as it is now, it must include
>>> the proper copyright notice.
>>
>> broken link (we will repair asap to point to a page
>> with actual license terms).
>
> Fixed now.  But it is still prone to misunderstanding.  If you really
> want to keep the "This question is incorrect" paragraph, I suggest you
> move this sentence
>
>   It is frequently asked if "S8 source code" is derivative work of
>   other MIT licensed sources (please read license terms).
>
> to the end (after "For people interested in...") and rewrite it as:
>
>   S8 is a derivative work of other programs made available under the
>   MIT license (please read license terms).
>
> Just moving the sentence this way would stop sounding arrogant.
>
> Paolo
>
>> Ale.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <[hidden email]>; "Paolo
>> Bonzini" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "esug-list" <[hidden email]>; "Amber ML"
>> <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not
>> Amber!
>>
>>
>> Ale, thanks for your answer.
>>
>> Again, your email is untouched at the bottom of this one.
>>
>> First, **Amber and Jtalk are the same project**. It was simply renamed:
>> https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/commit/1af622cf99ce11d248525fd9b6b072fd1d7b9398
>>
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2011-September/053788.html
>>
>>
>>
>> So I would appreciate if you could put the right name and website link,
>> of course
>> stating that you took the code in september 2011, to not include more
>> recent contributions.
>> Here you can find the right names to include:
>> https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/contributors?from=2011-03-13&to=2011-09-20&type=c
>>
>> A link to this page would be perfectly fine too I think (I'm not a
>> license expert).
>>
>>
>>
>> While adding the copyright notice, please put it somewhere visible on
>> the website.
>> Your FAQ cannot stay evasive as it is now, it must include the proper
>> copyright notice.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nico
>>
>>
>> On May 16, 2013, at 8:21 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo"
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Nicolas,
>>>
>>> At the time I adapted my works to jTalk, Amber did not exist.
>>> The last snapshot of Jtalk I have downloaded was
>>> sept,27 2011 (date taken from my backups, and it was downloaded
>>> for update of dev. repository, not to use in S8 at that time).
>>> I will copy the exact lines present in jtalk license file to make
>>> it exact (hope tomorrow will be online).
>>> If I put Amber as origin, it will be honored people not
>>> related/responsible to the sources.
>>>
>>>> If you could only clearly state on your website that s8
>>>> is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk)
>>>
>>> It is not "based on Amber", Amber was not published
>>> at the time I read the code.
>>>
>>>> with a link and the license,
>>>> it would completely solve the issue.
>>>
>>> Will edit our license including exact lines of jtalk's
>>> LICENSE  file.
>>>
>>>> Getting the license file is currently almost impossible
>>>> unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think
>>>> that's good enough, sorry.
>>>
>>> It is easy; press the "License terms" link present at any
>>> contribution page or evaluate
>>> the expression (with objects, evaluating is as easy
>>> as navigating files) in any image running S8.
>>>
>>>> Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT,
>>>> all I require from you is
>>>> to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**.
>>>
>>>> What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of
>>>> S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as
>>>> compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on**
>>>> Amber with modifications and additions to it.
>>>
>>> I think you have not read a good part; and you are
>>> interested in promoting your actual product Amber.
>>> S8 has today a lot of frameworks -more than 40 at U8 site,
>>> and +300 contribution pages; more than 16mb of .st files-
>>> running on diferent platforms/devices.
>>>
>>> The point here is that I can't help you saying that S8 is based
>>> on Amber; because it is based in a number of sources but
>>> not Amber.
>>>
>>>> I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's
>>>> at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt,
>>>> and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that
>>>> this will not be needed).
>>>
>>> Please review your links.
>>> It is similarity to Jtalk code what you find familiar.
>>>
>>>> I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today
>>>> as they were resolved in Amber during its development over
>>>> the last 2 years.
>>>
>>> Don't want to have a longer license string. :-P
>>> Anyone finding an issue can solve it changing his/her
>>> code base, and adding license lines to reference origins.
>>>
>>>> I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me
>>>> here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are
>>>> doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all.
>>>
>>> Ok, please go to your records and check the dates.
>>> I have no downloads of Amber, so I can't check if it has
>>> more diference to Jtalk than we can find for S8.
>>> What I can say is that S8 is not a kernel, it is a lot of
>>> COMPLETE frameworks to implement real apps
>>> with smalltalk running multiple devices and platforms.
>>> It is not something to read in a day.
>>>
>>>> Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I
>>>> ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ale.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton"
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: "esug-list" <[hidden email]>; "Amber ML"
>>> <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM
>>> Subject: Re: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not
>>> Amber!
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Ale,
>>>
>>> Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your
>>> response as you asked.
>>>
>>> If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based
>>> on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license,
>>> it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is
>>> currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find
>>> it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is
>>> based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is
>>> to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**.
>>>
>>> What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of
>>> S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as
>>> compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with
>>> modifications and additions to it.
>>>
>>> I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's
>>> at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can
>>> point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will
>>> not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today
>>> as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2
>>> years.
>>>
>>> I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me
>>> here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are
>>> doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I
>>> ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Nico
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo"
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Nico,
>>>>
>>>> As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not
>>>> subscribed,
>>>> please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make
>>>> the point clear
>>>> to persons that can read your asumptions about S8.
>>>>
>>>> I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about
>>>> S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we
>>>> are doing"
>>>> using the current implementation just now. [*]
>>>> S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our
>>>> objetives
>>>> at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in
>>>> http://www.smalltalking.net
>>>> web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de
>>>> Objetos Virtuales")
>>>> and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I
>>>> personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation
>>>> of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but
>>>> also
>>>> on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic
>>>> ambiences,
>>>> high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations
>>>> about
>>>> what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...)
>>>>
>>>> I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we
>>>> are doing; without enough information about us.
>>>> It is something frequently observed here, most people interested
>>>> in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources)
>>>> but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot.
>>>> The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more
>>>> than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker
>>>> leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and
>>>> written code or it's contents).
>>>>
>>>> On your first paragraph:
>>>>> After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber
>>>>> [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I
>>>>> really don't like the statements on the website about the license and
>>>>> origin of the project [3].
>>>>
>>>> (wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation
>>>> as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code
>>>> to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I
>>>> leaved
>>>> that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in
>>>> jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted
>>>> to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago.
>>>>
>>>> S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be
>>>> considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple
>>>> open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image).
>>>> It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other
>>>> work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code.
>>>> I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words.
>>>> I am interested in always evolving systems (running
>>>> in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences
>>>> with people in motion (more than "one" history).
>>>>
>>>> On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual...
>>>>
>>>> The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating
>>>> the following expression in a workspace:
>>>>
>>>> Smalltalk current licenseTerms
>>>>
>>>> it returns aString with the license terms
>>>> in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to
>>>> loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation)
>>>> e.g. if you point your  chrome browser to
>>>> http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html
>>>> you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license
>>>> under that conditions/time of execution.
>>>>
>>>> In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds
>>>> to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture,
>>>> e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites
>>>> you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including
>>>> other "origins".
>>>> It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices
>>>> including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or
>>>> browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks
>>>> I have written for that kind of applications.
>>>>
>>>> To try to understand the situation please consider that you made
>>>> wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text.
>>>> ---your refs---
>>>> "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/
>>>> ------------------
>>>>
>>>> U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development
>>>> using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking
>>>> association to promote the use of smalltalk under the
>>>> guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region).
>>>>
>>>> There is not enough public information in written form
>>>> about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write
>>>> papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce
>>>> more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach
>>>> masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk).
>>>> Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about
>>>> other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most
>>>> of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-)
>>>>
>>>> [*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 (
>>>> http://www.stic.st/ )
>>>> and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the
>>>> code :-)
>>>> I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can
>>>> meet
>>>> to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8;
>>>> and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in
>>>> the last decades.
>>>> I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other
>>>> will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do
>>>> when we are on a keyboard :-)
>>>>
>>>> all the best,
>>>> Ale.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton"
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: "esug-list" <[hidden email]>; "Amber ML"
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <[hidden email]>;
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM
>>>> Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicolas Petton
>>> http://www.nicolas-petton.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicolas Petton
>> http://www.nicolas-petton.fr
>>
>>
>>
>