Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

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Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
Dear all,

for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
Squeak list yet.

Best,

Michael


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
Subject: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...
To: Pharo Development <[hidden email]>, A
friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome
<[hidden email]>


Dear Pharoers :)

this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications.
Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books
we will
take into account a window of  5 years. So you are requested to vote
for the best book of the last 5 years.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT

Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board.
_______________________________________________
Pharo-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users

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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

stephane ducasse-2

On Sep 6, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
> Squeak list yet.

like what?
I'm curious to learn.

>
> Best,
>
> Michael
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
> Subject: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...
> To: Pharo Development <[hidden email]>, A
> friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Dear Pharoers :)
>
> this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications.
> Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books
> we will
> take into account a window of  5 years. So you are requested to vote
> for the best book of the last 5 years.
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT
>
> Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board.
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users
>


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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
Hi,

Am 07.09.2010 um 07:15 schrieb stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>
>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>> Squeak list yet.
>
> like what?
> I'm curious to learn.

so am I. :-)

Best,

Michael

>

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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

stephane ducasse-2
> Am 07.09.2010 um 07:15 schrieb stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>>> Squeak list yet.
>>
>> like what?
>> I'm curious to learn.
>
> so am I. :-)

A smiley does not solve everything so I let you smile.

Stef


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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
... fair enough.

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:53 AM, stephane ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Am 07.09.2010 um 07:15 schrieb stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>>>> Squeak list yet.
>>>
>>> like what?
>>> I'm curious to learn.
>>
>> so am I. :-)
>
> A smiley does not solve everything so I let you smile.
>
> Stef
>
>
>

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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Andreas.Raab
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse-2
On 9/6/2010 10:15 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:

>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>> Squeak list yet.
>
> like what?
> I'm curious to learn.

Like "conflict of interest"?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest)

"A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization
is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt
the motivation for an act in the other."

Given that you're both the author of half of the books as well as
president of ESUG (the organizer) it's pretty clear that you're stuck in
a conflict of interest situation. Inviting the Pharo community to
participate and not others only shows how deep the conflict of interest
goes - the president of ESUG shouldn't favor individual communities,
should he?

Cheers,
   - Andreas

>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Stéphane Ducasse<[hidden email]>
>> Date: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
>> Subject: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...
>> To: Pharo Development<[hidden email]>, A
>> friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome
>> <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>> Dear Pharoers :)
>>
>> this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications.
>> Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books
>> we will
>> take into account a window of  5 years. So you are requested to vote
>> for the best book of the last 5 years.
>>
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT
>>
>> Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users
>>
>
>
>


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Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

stephane ducasse-2
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>>> Squeak list yet.
>>
>> like what?
>> I'm curious to learn.
>
> Like "conflict of interest"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest)
>
> "A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other."
>
> Given that you're both the author of half of the books as well as president of ESUG (the organizer) it's pretty clear that you're stuck in a conflict of interest situation. Inviting the Pharo community to participate and not others only shows how deep the conflict of interest goes - the president of ESUG shouldn't favor individual communities, should he?

Thanks andreas for this welcome mail.
of course that esug does not something is not the wish of everybody.
And people will vote not us. And this is not my fault if I spent my nights trying to get better a smalltalk world.
Everybody can write books: a book is a word + a word + a word a lot of time, even you can do it.
Now yesterday I had a difficult day
        - five visitors (one chilean, one argentinian, noury, luc, mariano and a team of 9 people to synchronize).
You see I even forgot to send the mail to the seaside mailing-list.

Thanks again for such encouragement.

Stef (talking small).
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Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
Dear all,

addendum (quote from Stéphane):

"I forgot to mention that the deadline is until wednesday 15 september at noon."

Best,

Michael

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Michael Haupt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
> Squeak list yet.
>
> Best,
>
> Michael
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
> Subject: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...
> To: Pharo Development <[hidden email]>, A
> friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Dear Pharoers :)
>
> this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications.
> Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books
> we will
> take into account a window of  5 years. So you are requested to vote
> for the best book of the last 5 years.
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT
>
> Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board.
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users
>

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Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Andreas.Raab
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse-2
Ah, a good old-fashioned "Stefane Ducasse is pissed" post. Hadn't had
one in a while. You really need to *read* the Wikipedia article on
conflict of interest before sending one of your hate mails. Conflicts of
interest happen everywhere, to me, to you, to many people. The important
part is to recognize them and to act accordingly. Here is the second
paragraph from Wikipedia:

"A conflict of interest can only exist if a person or testimony is
entrusted with some impartiality; a modicum of trust is necessary to
create it. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent from
the execution of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be
discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs."

It should be obvious that a person who is both organizer of a contest as
well as participant is in a potential conflict of interest situation. If
you recognize the conflict you can deal with it. It can be as simple as
being explicit that you expect others to spread the invitation, for
example by including "please redistribute this announcement as widely as
possible in the Smalltalk community".

Having said all that my original point still stands, namely that your
invitation of the Pharo community specifically to vote is a clear
expression of an unrecognized and unmitigated conflict of interest. You
need to learn to recognize such situations and to act less emotionally.
Conflicts of interests happen to all of us, they can be dealt with
calmly and reasonably. And I expect the president of ESUG to be able to
act in such a way.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

On 9/7/2010 12:51 AM, stephane ducasse wrote:

>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>>>> Squeak list yet.
>>>
>>> like what?
>>> I'm curious to learn.
>>
>> Like "conflict of interest"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest)
>>
>> "A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other."
>>
>> Given that you're both the author of half of the books as well as president of ESUG (the organizer) it's pretty clear that you're stuck in a conflict of interest situation. Inviting the Pharo community to participate and not others only shows how deep the conflict of interest goes - the president of ESUG shouldn't favor individual communities, should he?
>
> Thanks andreas for this welcome mail.
> of course that esug does not something is not the wish of everybody.
> And people will vote not us. And this is not my fault if I spent my nights trying to get better a smalltalk world.
> Everybody can write books: a book is a word + a word + a word a lot of time, even you can do it.
> Now yesterday I had a difficult day
> - five visitors (one chilean, one argentinian, noury, luc, mariano and a team of 9 people to synchronize).
> You see I even forgot to send the mail to the seaside mailing-list.
>
> Thanks again for such encouragement.
>
> Stef (talking small).
>


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Re: Fwd: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
Hi,

COI notwithstanding, it is probably OK to expect ESUG list readers to
assume the roles of forwarders to their particular sub-communities.

Best,

Michael

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9/6/2010 10:15 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Michael Haupt wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> for some more or less conceivable reason, this hasn't made it to the
>>> Squeak list yet.
>>
>> like what?
>> I'm curious to learn.
>
> Like "conflict of interest"?
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest)
>
> "A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is
> involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the
> motivation for an act in the other."
>
> Given that you're both the author of half of the books as well as president
> of ESUG (the organizer) it's pretty clear that you're stuck in a conflict of
> interest situation. Inviting the Pharo community to participate and not
> others only shows how deep the conflict of interest goes - the president of
> ESUG shouldn't favor individual communities, should he?
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
>
>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Stéphane Ducasse<[hidden email]>
>>> Date: Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
>>> Subject: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5
>>> years...
>>> To: Pharo Development<[hidden email]>, A
>>> friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Pharoers :)
>>>
>>> this year ESUG would like to reward effort made in book publications.
>>> Since we want to push new books but that it takes time to write books
>>> we will
>>> take into account a window of  5 years. So you are requested to vote
>>> for the best book of the last 5 years.
>>>
>>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q2LKKDT
>>>
>>> Stef on the behalf of the ESUG board.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Noury Bouraqadi-2
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse-2
Sorry Andreas. I don't see the conflict of interest.
You cleary missunderstood the point.

ESUG is just an engine for moving the Smalltalk community forward.
The ESUG board will not decide which is the best book, this is why the vote is open to the community.
Nevertheless, ESUG board members likewise other Smalltalkers can submit their work.

We spent time listing books about Smalltalk.  And one of our conclusion is that the community is not very strong on this point, since we have only few authors (Andrès Valloud, Stéphane, ...). And we are lucky to have them.

The goal of ESUG is to promote Smalltalk.
Showing that  Smalltalk books are valuable and encouraging people to write is the point here.

We want MORE SMALLTALK BOOKS!
This is the message that everybody should remember.

Noury
http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury
----
-18th International Smalltalk Joint Conference, September 13 -17 2010 Barcelona, Spain.
http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2010

-18ème Journées Francophones des Systèmes Multi-Agents (JFSMA), 18-20 october 2010, Mahdia, Tunisia.
http://www.ltim.org/jfsma10/accueil.php

-The SIMPAR 2010 International Workshop on Dynamic languages for RObotic and Sensors systems (DYROS), november 2010 - Darmstadt, Germany.
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/wikka.php?wakka=DYROS10

-4th Argentinian Smalltalks Conference November 11th - 13th, 2010, Concepción del Uruguay, Entre Ríos, Argentina
http://www.fast.org.ar/


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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

SergeStinckwich
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry Andreas. I don't see the conflict of interest.
> You cleary missunderstood the point.
>
> ESUG is just an engine for moving the Smalltalk community forward.
> The ESUG board will not decide which is the best book, this is why the vote is open to the community.
> Nevertheless, ESUG board members likewise other Smalltalkers can submit their work.
>
> We spent time listing books about Smalltalk.  And one of our conclusion is that the community is not very strong on this point, since we have only few authors (Andrès Valloud, Stéphane, ...). And we are lucky to have them.
>
> The goal of ESUG is to promote Smalltalk.
> Showing that  Smalltalk books are valuable and encouraging people to write is the point here.
>
> We want MORE SMALLTALK BOOKS!
> This is the message that everybody should remember.

I think we need more translations also ! We have only Squeak by
Example in english and french. The same for Pharo by Example.
I was wondering that maybe this is difficult for people who don't have
the energy or the skill to  setup a repository for translation.
Maybe we should use an infrastructure like the one used for FLOSS
Manuals (http://en.flossmanuals.net/ ) in order to be able to launch
new translations very easily.

What is the community thinking about that ?

Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
Serge,

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Serge Stinckwich
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think we need more translations also ! We have only Squeak by
> Example in english and french. The same for Pharo by Example.
> I was wondering that maybe this is difficult for people who don't have
> the energy or the skill to  setup a repository for translation.
> Maybe we should use an infrastructure like the one used for FLOSS
> Manuals (http://en.flossmanuals.net/ ) in order to be able to launch
> new translations very easily.
>
> What is the community thinking about that ?

more translations: yes please, and I'm willing to contribute, but
infrastructure is key. I don't have a clue about what is possible in
terms of infrastructures for multi-language documentation/book
projects, but if it provides good tracking capabilities (e.g.,
alerting translators to languages B..Z when a substantial content-wise
(not just language polishing) change is done in the version of
language A), that would be worthwhile.

Best,

Michael

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Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

SergeStinckwich
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Michael Haupt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Serge,
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think we need more translations also ! We have only Squeak by
>> Example in english and french. The same for Pharo by Example.
>> I was wondering that maybe this is difficult for people who don't have
>> the energy or the skill to  setup a repository for translation.
>> Maybe we should use an infrastructure like the one used for FLOSS
>> Manuals (http://en.flossmanuals.net/ ) in order to be able to launch
>> new translations very easily.
>>
>> What is the community thinking about that ?
>
> more translations: yes please, and I'm willing to contribute, but
> infrastructure is key. I don't have a clue about what is possible in
> terms of infrastructures for multi-language documentation/book
> projects, but if it provides good tracking capabilities (e.g.,
> alerting translators to languages B..Z when a substantial content-wise
> (not just language polishing) change is done in the version of
> language A), that would be worthwhile.

Yes, so maybe first step is to investigate the different open-source
alternatives and after that we deploy an infrastructure somewhere and
asking some ESUG funds ;-)

At the moment, i'm only aware of the FLOSS manual infrastructure,
mainly used by OLPC (but not only).
We could also used a Pier infrastructure like the one provided for
http://book.seaside.st/book
but there is no support for translations.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
Serge,

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Serge Stinckwich
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> At the moment, i'm only aware of the FLOSS manual infrastructure,
> mainly used by OLPC (but not only).

browsing the web page, I found
http://en.flossmanuals.net/OpenTranslationTools/ - it looks like a
good entry point for completely oblivious people like me. :-) It has a
list of open-source translation systems ...

Is there a comprehensive feature list for the FLOSS infrastructure
somewhere? Something to make one accomodated with it, like a quick
start how-to? (Couldn't find one. Probably blindness.)

Best,

Michael

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Stéphane Rollandin
In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
> I think we need more translations also !
>
> What is the community thinking about that ?

IMHO, considering how close is reading and writing Smalltalk code to
reading and writing English text, I don't see how translating books will
be enough to spread Smalltalk in the world: one has to read english to
make sense of most methods usage... I believe Smalltalk is doomed to be
a programming language for English speakers; that's unfortunate but I
don't see a way out of that situation.

Stef



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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
Hi Stéphane,

2010/9/7 Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]>:
> IMHO, considering how close is reading and writing Smalltalk code to reading
> and writing English text, I don't see how translating books will be enough
> to spread Smalltalk in the world: one has to read english to make sense of
> most methods usage... I believe Smalltalk is doomed to be a programming
> language for English speakers; that's unfortunate but I don't see a way out
> of that situation.

eh, Java and Ruby use lots of English words as well, and look at their
success. In fact, most programming languages adopt English as the
language for keywords and such.

But that is probably not what you mean, right? Are you alluding to
Smalltalk "grammar" and the way it is related to English?

I think I recall a blog post by Canol Gökel, wherein he compared
Smalltalk and Turkish grammars and found them to be surprisingly
similar. Let me see ... yes, here it is:
http://smalltalk.gnu.org/blog/zuluuuuuu/smalltalk-and-turkish

Following Canol's thoughts, Smalltalk seems to be closer to Turkish
than to English after all. :-)

That aside, I really don't think it's a big problem. People doing
programming typically pick up their share of required English quickly
as they go along learning the language.

If you really insist on turning Smalltalk more, say, French, how about
"simply" translating all keyword messages to French? (I'd be more on
the German side, was I to pursue such a quest.)

Would I prefer

persons collect: [ :p | p firstName ]

over

personen sammle: [ :p | p vorname ]

?

Best,

Michael

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Bèrto ëd Sèra
Hi!

If you really insist on turning Smalltalk more, say, French, how about
"simply" translating all keyword messages to French? (I'd be more on
the German side, was I to pursue such a quest.)
 
Too bad you'd have to include a translator for non-French (German or whatever) maintainers of your code, AND I strongly doubt you can write a method name in Arabic or Cyrillic (let alone Chinese). It could work, in a way, but it'd really need basic infrastructure.

Bèrto


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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Stéphane Rollandin
In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3

> But that is probably not what you mean, right? Are you alluding to
> Smalltalk "grammar" and the way it is related to English?

Both, yes. About keywords: lots of languages have English keywords but
in Smalltalk case, keywords are *all* we have, so the problem takes
another dimension...

> If you really insist on turning Smalltalk more, say, French, how about
> "simply" translating all keyword messages to French?

Sure, "simply"... :)

BTW I would love to be proved wrong, as I'm the first to be bitten by
this: when I show my code to friends, I have to translate what it means...

Stef



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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-users] Vote for the best Smalltalk book of the last 5 years...

Michael Haupt-3
In reply to this post by Bèrto ëd Sèra
Hi,

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Bèrto ëd Sèra <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Too bad you'd have to include a translator for non-French (German or
> whatever) maintainers of your code,

you mean like the one we currently have for non-English speakers? ;-)

> AND I strongly doubt you can write a method name in Arabic or Cyrillic (let alone Chinese). It could work, in a
> way, but it'd really need basic infrastructure.

Sure. I was just fantasising a bit. I think the Germanised example looks weird.

Best,

Michael

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