[Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]

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[Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]

Juan Vuletich-4
FYI...

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Hi Folks,

Thanks for suggesting all this, Ron.
(inline)

Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

>
> I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this
> conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that
> the goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving
> those goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems
> that selecting the right fork for the right job “may” not have been
> possible without the split. There are a number of new developments
> coming, (in the VM, Spoon, Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible
> that one big monolithic Squeak may have made it more difficult for
> all. It seems that we are closer to having split up the components
> then we had thought.
>

I agree.

> I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point
> which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything
> else. Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then
> building Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like
> something that might help bring the communities back together. Will
> Github or SmalltalkHub help to accomplish this? If this were a goal
> would either do more than the other?
>

I believe that the option that allows for a minimal image that can grow
is something close to the package support in Cuis, that is extremely
compact, doesn't require Monticello and relies on Github (or similar)
for version control. I like the idea of building each distribution from
a single point. That single point could be not far from current Cuis. I
believe that Cuis, removing Morphic, programming tools, and any other
non-kernel image or Cuis specific stuff, could become that single point.

If the people behind other Squeak distributions and Squeak derived
projects want to go ahead with this, I volunteer for building that
starting point by removing from Cuis any stuff that anybody doesn't want
in there. Then, the Cuis distribution would be built by loading a set of
packages on top of it. The same could be done for the projects that
adhere to this idea. Some of those packages could be shared. For
instance, for Cuis, I'd be more than happy to use the Compiler package
that Eliot works on. But, most likely, I'd not use the same Morphic
package as Squeak. This could reduce the effort due to code duplication.

> I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have
> it work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed
> such so that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in
> every fork so knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is
> different since nobody expects that with some work it will run on
> Oinq, I mean Cog (my name for the vm didn’t stick).
>

Qwaq for the voice of the duck, and Oinq for the pig, right? :)

> It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some
> movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement is
> preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work
> with SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a
> boost? If Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?
>

Cuis doesn't include Monticello. I believe that a more compact and
simpler implementation of package support, together with Github for
version control, repositories, etc. is better. We are already using this
with Cuis, and the results are good. It would be quite improbable that I
could be persuaded of pre-loading Monticello into Cuis.

> Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some
> similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the
> entire Smalltalk community.
>

Agreed. Especially if it helps making the system (Cuis in my case)
simpler, easy to understand, and manage.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

> All the best,
>
> *Ron Teitelbaum*
>
> /Head Of Engineering/
>
> *3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting*
>
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum>
>
> www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>
>
> 3d ICC on G+
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts>
>
> *From:* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of
> *Juan Vuletich (mail lists)
> *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
> *To:* dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>
> Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of
> objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see
> http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html .
>
> Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used
> to that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe
> you can help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Juan Vuletich
>
> Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How
>     compatible is Cuis to Squeak ?
>
>     By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk
>     (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a
>     backup plan.
>
>     I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit
>     pull rm add .
>
>     I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a
>     beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is
>     Cuis, etc etc
>
>     Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some
>     people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally
>     try find ways to make things work together.
>
>     But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on
>     Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier.
>     But better late than never I guess :D
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:* Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     *To:* dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>; The general-purpose Squeak
>     developers list <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
>     *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>
>     Hi Dimitris,
>
>     With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages.
>     We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let
>     git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line
>     terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages.
>     For example see
>
>     https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d
>     .
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Juan Vuletich
>
>     Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>         SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will
>         be dead.
>
>         I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I
>         was a python developer.
>
>         And I love squeak too.
>
>         I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved
>         by smalltalk.
>
>         Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of
>         ruby and python projects, js and many more.
>
>         I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense
>         intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.
>
>         I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies,
>         but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects
>         and support the smalltalk solutions instead.
>
>         I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its
>         hard to compete with products that are designed full time by
>         big teams and matured through thousands of use cases.
>
>         My vote goes to Github.
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         *From:* Göran Krampe <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>         *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>         <[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>         *Sent:* Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
>         *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>
>
>         Hi folks!
>
>         As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays
>         both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other
>         related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of
>         some interest.
>
>         First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but
>         we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some
>         things worth noting:
>
>         - SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package
>         *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from
>         the very beginning.
>
>         - Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but
>         when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it
>         would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over"
>         several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at
>         the same time SS was great and has served us very well in its
>         own right.
>
>         - Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't
>         have that amount of free time anymore.
>
>         - SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.
>
>         - Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these
>         days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole
>         dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to
>         solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly
>         some line noise - it is not that complicated.
>
>         - This also means that for a very, very long time package
>         management and source code management will be forever
>         "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine!
>         Again, let's just embrace it and go.
>
>         - The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just
>         code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the
>         hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a
>         Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
>         Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!
>
>         - Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I
>         haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close
>         to working?
>
>         - Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice
>         system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for
>         it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader
>         will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.
>
>
>         So my advice would be:
>
>         1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we
>         get ready to ditch it. Really.
>
>         2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and
>         Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello
>         even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are
>         lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy
>         from. I have written two configurations these last two days
>         and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)
>
>         3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work
>         fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not
>         Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason
>         Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into
>         "Pharohub".
>
>         Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid
>         architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish
>         features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right
>         there in the browser!
>
>         Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding
>         fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better,
>         better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and
>         Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have
>         projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
>         functions for EXACTLY that.
>
>         Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the
>         Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can
>         ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no
>         reason not to.
>
>         regards, Göran
>
>



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Re: [Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]

garduino
Thanks by share.

About repositories I feel very comfortable working with GitHub and really I can't saw any sense to the development effort of SmalltalkHub only to? Being built in smalltalk? But paying the price of being isolated of all the rest of the developers that are currently using GitHub....

Just an opinion.

Cheers.


2012/12/25 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>
FYI...

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Subject:        Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
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Hi Folks,

Thanks for suggesting all this, Ron.
(inline)

Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that the goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the split. There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon, Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak may have made it more difficult for all. It seems that we are closer to having split up the components then we had thought.


I agree.

I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else. Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then building Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that might help bring the communities back together. Will Github or SmalltalkHub help to accomplish this? If this were a goal would either do more than the other?


I believe that the option that allows for a minimal image that can grow is something close to the package support in Cuis, that is extremely compact, doesn't require Monticello and relies on Github (or similar) for version control. I like the idea of building each distribution from a single point. That single point could be not far from current Cuis. I believe that Cuis, removing Morphic, programming tools, and any other non-kernel image or Cuis specific stuff, could become that single point.

If the people behind other Squeak distributions and Squeak derived projects want to go ahead with this, I volunteer for building that starting point by removing from Cuis any stuff that anybody doesn't want in there. Then, the Cuis distribution would be built by loading a set of packages on top of it. The same could be done for the projects that adhere to this idea. Some of those packages could be shared. For instance, for Cuis, I'd be more than happy to use the Compiler package that Eliot works on. But, most likely, I'd not use the same Morphic package as Squeak. This could reduce the effort due to code duplication.

I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in every fork so knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is different since nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name for the vm didn’t stick).


Qwaq for the voice of the duck, and Oinq for the pig, right? :)

It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement is preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost? If Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?


Cuis doesn't include Monticello. I believe that a more compact and simpler implementation of package support, together with Github for version control, repositories, etc. is better. We are already using this with Cuis, and the results are good. It would be quite improbable that I could be persuaded of pre-loading Monticello into Cuis.

Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the entire Smalltalk community.


Agreed. Especially if it helps making the system (Cuis in my case) simpler, easy to understand, and manage.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

All the best,

*Ron Teitelbaum*

/Head Of Engineering/

*3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting*

[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum>

www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>

3d ICC on G+ <https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts>

*From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Juan Vuletich (mail lists)
*Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
*To:* dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
*Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..


Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html .

Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used to that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you can help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.

Cheers,

Juan Vuletich

Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:

    Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How
    compatible is Cuis to Squeak ?

    By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk
    (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a
    backup plan.

    I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit
    pull rm add .

    I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a
    beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is
    Cuis, etc etc

    Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some
    people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally
    try find ways to make things work together.

    But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on
    Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier.
    But better late than never I guess :D

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *From:* Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
    *To:* dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>; The general-purpose Squeak
    developers list <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
    *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
    *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..


    Hi Dimitris,

    With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages.
    We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let
    git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line
    terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages.
    For example see

    https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d
    .

    Cheers,

    Juan Vuletich

    Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>:


        SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will
        be dead.

        I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I
        was a python developer.

        And I love squeak too.

        I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved
        by smalltalk.

        Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of
        ruby and python projects, js and many more.

        I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense
        intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.

        I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies,
        but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects
        and support the smalltalk solutions instead.

        I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its
        hard to compete with products that are designed full time by
        big teams and matured through thousands of use cases.

        My vote goes to Github.

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        *From:* Göran Krampe <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
        *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list
        <[hidden email]
        <mailto:[hidden email]>>
        *Sent:* Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
        *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..



        Hi folks!

        As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays
        both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other
        related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of
        some interest.

        First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but
        we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some
        things worth noting:

        - SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package
        *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from
        the very beginning.

        - Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but
        when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it
        would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over"
        several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at
        the same time SS was great and has served us very well in its
        own right.

        - Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't
        have that amount of free time anymore.

        - SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.

        - Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these
        days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole
        dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to
        solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly
        some line noise - it is not that complicated.

        - This also means that for a very, very long time package
        management and source code management will be forever
        "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine!
        Again, let's just embrace it and go.

        - The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just
        code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the
        hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a
        Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
        Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!

        - Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I
        haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close
        to working?

        - Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice
        system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for
        it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader
        will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.


        So my advice would be:

        1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we
        get ready to ditch it. Really.

        2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and
        Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello
        even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are
        lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy
        from. I have written two configurations these last two days
        and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)

        3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work
        fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not
        Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason
        Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into
        "Pharohub".

        Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid
        architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish
        features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right
        there in the browser!

        Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding
        fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better,
        better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and
        Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have
        projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
        functions for EXACTLY that.

        Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the
        Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can
        ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no
        reason not to.

        regards, Göran





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Arduino Software  http://www.arduinosoftware.com
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greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogspot.com
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Re: [Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]

Angel Java Lopez
+100 GitHub

GH is the greatest thing since sliced bread ;-) fork, pull request, issues, good markdown support, GitHub pages, all you need for social coding

@ajlopez
github:ajlopez

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Germán Arduino <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks by share.

About repositories I feel very comfortable working with GitHub and really I can't saw any sense to the development effort of SmalltalkHub only to? Being built in smalltalk? But paying the price of being isolated of all the rest of the developers that are currently using GitHub....

Just an opinion.

Cheers.



2012/12/25 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>
FYI...

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Hi Folks,

Thanks for suggesting all this, Ron.
(inline)

Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that the goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the split. There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon, Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak may have made it more difficult for all. It seems that we are closer to having split up the components then we had thought.


I agree.

I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else. Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then building Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that might help bring the communities back together. Will Github or SmalltalkHub help to accomplish this? If this were a goal would either do more than the other?


I believe that the option that allows for a minimal image that can grow is something close to the package support in Cuis, that is extremely compact, doesn't require Monticello and relies on Github (or similar) for version control. I like the idea of building each distribution from a single point. That single point could be not far from current Cuis. I believe that Cuis, removing Morphic, programming tools, and any other non-kernel image or Cuis specific stuff, could become that single point.

If the people behind other Squeak distributions and Squeak derived projects want to go ahead with this, I volunteer for building that starting point by removing from Cuis any stuff that anybody doesn't want in there. Then, the Cuis distribution would be built by loading a set of packages on top of it. The same could be done for the projects that adhere to this idea. Some of those packages could be shared. For instance, for Cuis, I'd be more than happy to use the Compiler package that Eliot works on. But, most likely, I'd not use the same Morphic package as Squeak. This could reduce the effort due to code duplication.

I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in every fork so knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is different since nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name for the vm didn’t stick).


Qwaq for the voice of the duck, and Oinq for the pig, right? :)

It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement is preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost? If Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?


Cuis doesn't include Monticello. I believe that a more compact and simpler implementation of package support, together with Github for version control, repositories, etc. is better. We are already using this with Cuis, and the results are good. It would be quite improbable that I could be persuaded of pre-loading Monticello into Cuis.

Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the entire Smalltalk community.


Agreed. Especially if it helps making the system (Cuis in my case) simpler, easy to understand, and manage.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

All the best,

*Ron Teitelbaum*

/Head Of Engineering/

*3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting*

[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum>

www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>

3d ICC on G+ <https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts>

*From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Juan Vuletich (mail lists)
*Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
*To:* dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
*Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..


Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html .

Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used to that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you can help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.

Cheers,

Juan Vuletich

Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:

    Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How
    compatible is Cuis to Squeak ?

    By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk
    (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a
    backup plan.

    I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit
    pull rm add .

    I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a
    beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is
    Cuis, etc etc

    Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some
    people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally
    try find ways to make things work together.

    But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on
    Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier.
    But better late than never I guess :D

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *From:* Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
    *To:* dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>; The general-purpose Squeak
    developers list <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
    *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
    *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..


    Hi Dimitris,

    With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages.
    We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let
    git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line
    terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages.
    For example see

    https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d
    .

    Cheers,

    Juan Vuletich

    Quoting dimitris chloupis <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>:


        SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will
        be dead.

        I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I
        was a python developer.

        And I love squeak too.

        I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved
        by smalltalk.

        Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of
        ruby and python projects, js and many more.

        I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense
        intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.

        I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies,
        but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects
        and support the smalltalk solutions instead.

        I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its
        hard to compete with products that are designed full time by
        big teams and matured through thousands of use cases.

        My vote goes to Github.

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        *From:* Göran Krampe <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
        *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list
        <[hidden email]
        <mailto:[hidden email]>>
        *Sent:* Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
        *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..



        Hi folks!

        As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays
        both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other
        related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of
        some interest.

        First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but
        we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some
        things worth noting:

        - SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package
        *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from
        the very beginning.

        - Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but
        when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it
        would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over"
        several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at
        the same time SS was great and has served us very well in its
        own right.

        - Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't
        have that amount of free time anymore.

        - SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.

        - Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these
        days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole
        dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to
        solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly
        some line noise - it is not that complicated.

        - This also means that for a very, very long time package
        management and source code management will be forever
        "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine!
        Again, let's just embrace it and go.

        - The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just
        code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the
        hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a
        Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
        Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!

        - Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I
        haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close
        to working?

        - Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice
        system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for
        it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader
        will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.


        So my advice would be:

        1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we
        get ready to ditch it. Really.

        2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and
        Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello
        even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are
        lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy
        from. I have written two configurations these last two days
        and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)

        3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work
        fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not
        Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason
        Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into
        "Pharohub".

        Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid
        architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish
        features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right
        there in the browser!

        Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding
        fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better,
        better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and
        Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have
        projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
        functions for EXACTLY that.

        Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the
        Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can
        ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no
        reason not to.

        regards, Göran





_______________________________________________
Cuis mailing list
[hidden email]
http://jvuletich.org/mailman/listinfo/cuis_jvuletich.org



--
============================================
Germán S. Arduino  <gsa @ arsol.net>   Twitter: garduino
Arduino Software  http://www.arduinosoftware.com
PasswordsPro  http://www.passwordspro.com
greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogspot.com
============================================

_______________________________________________
Cuis mailing list
[hidden email]
http://jvuletich.org/mailman/listinfo/cuis_jvuletich.org



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