Fwd: Universes? or Metacello meta repository

Hi

I value the idea that when we look for a software (for example SIXX)
we can find a version that is working. In the past we used Universes and
if was successful.
We cannot not have squeakmap and universe at the same time.
I discussed with damien briefly about that and he told me that we coud  
have
a metacello alternative.
Now I wonder if for pharo 1.0 it makes sense.
May be having a nice Universe for pharo would be good and important.

Dale what do you think?
Do you see metacello working in the story (may be for 1.1)?
Stef





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Hi Stef,

I know I am not Dale, but I will give my two cents anyway :).

I believe Metacello is a very nice piece of work and it should be a  
very strong contender for managing releases. The ui tools are not  
quite there yet, but it works very nicely for allowing someone to  
specify the exact configuration to be loaded.

There are a couple of large case studies that already work (including  
Moose :)).

Cheers,
Doru

On 16 Sep 2009, at 11:24, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

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www.tudorgirba.com

"From an abstract enough point of view, any two things are similar."




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On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I believe Metacello is a very nice piece of work and it should be a
> very strong contender for managing releases. The ui tools are not
> quite there yet, but it works very nicely for allowing someone to
> specify the exact configuration to be loaded.

I agree. Universes is cool but:

- it requires a dedicated server and only few people installed one already
- it only allows one administrator per package description
- the interface is well... not very nice :-)
- we would need to create a new universe from scratch

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Ok but for pharo1.0 it would be nice to have it :)
then after we plug metacello underneath

Doru with metacello will we be able to say
        I want to load in the past the version of moose which worked with  
pharo1.0
        even if now I'm working on pharo 3.2 (the real future :))

Stef
On Sep 16, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:


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Basically yes, but for that we just need a way to manage Pharo  
versions. So, as long as we can say what Pharo 1.0 is, we should be  
able to do that.

Cheers,
Doru


On 16 Sep 2009, at 13:29, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

--
www.tudorgirba.com

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be done."


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I am interested in learning how we could use metacello. Not for 1.0.  
Before we commit to it for 1.1 I think we would need to conduct an  
experiment in parallel to get a feel for it. We should also review the  
other proposals. Then commit to one proposal for 1.1 1.2 etc and make  
the process work.  Or we could stall 1.1 until we have a process in  
place but I think we will still have fixes coming in we will not want  
a lag. What do you think?

Cheers
Mike

On 16 Sep 2009, at 10:24, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

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> I agree. Universes is cool but:
>
> - it requires a dedicated server and only few people installed one already
> - it only allows one administrator per package description

Setting up an Universe server is simple: Just put the XML package
definition on some public HTTP server and version it with SVN. I
wouldn't bother about the server written in Smalltalk, it is hard to
setup and use. You want a consistent Universe anyway, not something
where everybody can submit their packages anytime.

> - the interface is well... not very nice :-)
> - we would need to create a new universe from scratch

The purple browser was nice.

Lukas

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My 2 cents.
It's very cool what there will be a packaging system. But i think what
it should allow distribution not only code, but asets too. Like
images, or css (for web application)

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 15:59, Michael Robers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> am interested in learning how we could use metacello. Not for 1.0.
> Before we commit to it for 1.1 I think we would need to conduct an
> experiment in parallel to get a feel for it. We should also review the
> other proposals. Then commit to one proposal for 1.1 1.2 etc and make
> the process work.  Or we could stall 1.1 until we have

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Mike

Yes this is a good idea.
read the blog of dale.
We are starting to manage all our project Moose, Mondrian, Glamour  
with metacello
I'm waiting that doru and dale release a version with fixed api to  
write a chapter for
Pharo by example2

Stef
On Sep 16, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Michael Robers wrote:


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Stef,

I think that the core of Metacello is very solid. Doru is using it for Moose (a large project) and I am using it for GLASS managing 20 some individual projects like Pier, Seaside 2.8 and Magritte. I am working on a Metacello configuration for Seaside 3.0 - almost 70 packages and around 30 sub projects ...

The API (DSL actually) and UI is still under development.

The API is usable but in a few places is probably more complex than it needs to be. The UI is virtually non-existent, but that is being worked on, right Doru:).

So far I've been able to maintain backwards compatibility for the API as Doru and I have moved the API forward, but until we've finalized things there's always the chance that we'd need to 'break' something.

If we have a good UI, then the changes in the API can be hidden to a large extent...

In the end it is probably prudent to wait a bit before going with widespread usage of Metacello within Pharo and use it only in the places with particularly difficult configuration issues...

Within the next month I will be facing a similar decision - I am pushing hard on Seaside 3.0 on top of GemStone 2.4 and Metacello is an integral part of the effort. I will need to decide whether the API is mature enough at that time to push out the GLASS release.

Dale

----- "Stéphane Ducasse" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| Hi
|
| I value the idea that when we look for a software (for example SIXX)
| we can find a version that is working. In the past we used Universes
| and
| if was successful.
| We cannot not have squeakmap and universe at the same time.
| I discussed with damien briefly about that and he told me that we coud
|  
| have
| a metacello alternative.
| Now I wonder if for pharo 1.0 it makes sense.
| May be having a nice Universe for pharo would be good and important.
|
| Dale what do you think?
| Do you see metacello working in the story (may be for 1.1)?
| Stef
|
|
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Pharo-project mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Stef,

Under Metacello, when you a release a version, the complete list of Monticello files are recorded with the version (including load order dependencies).

So Metacello is designed to make it possible to load old versions of projects into new images.

It is also possible to record the versions of all of the projects that you are using, so you can record the exact version of Seaside, Magritte and Pier you are using at a particular point in time, and then you load that exact configuration into a different image at any time in the future.

Dale
----- "Stéphane Ducasse" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| Ok but for pharo1.0 it would be nice to have it :)
| then after we plug metacello underneath
|
| Doru with metacello will we be able to say
| I want to load in the past the version of moose which worked with  
| pharo1.0
| even if now I'm working on pharo 3.2 (the real future :))
|
| Stef
| On Sep 16, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:
|
| > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>
|
| > wrote:
| >> I believe Metacello is a very nice piece of work and it should be
| a
| >> very strong contender for managing releases. The ui tools are not
| >> quite there yet, but it works very nicely for allowing someone to
| >> specify the exact configuration to be loaded.
| >
| > I agree. Universes is cool but:
| >
| > - it requires a dedicated server and only few people installed one
|
| > already
| > - it only allows one administrator per package description
| > - the interface is well... not very nice :-)
| > - we would need to create a new universe from scratch
| >
| > --
| > Damien Cassou
| > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
| >
| > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
| > popular by not having them." James Iry
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Pharo-project mailing list
| > [hidden email]
| > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Pharo-project mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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good to know.

My questioning is more about the infrastructure that we will have to  
put in place to manage external project to get a
kind of universe for pharo based on metacello.
Because at the end, I thought that the proposal of damien was that  
external projects ie Sixx, Ob,....
could be managed used metacello but may be the author does not want so  
we will have to provide metacello
projects for those.

Stef

On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote:


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I remembered that. Now I was wondering about the following

if we can tag a config we get in essence an Universe: a set of  
packages wrking with a given tag.
But this is not quite the same.

One of the problem that universes solved is that if

MyApp requires
        AppA v1

YourApp requires
        AppA v3

I can load MyApp and YourApp separately but together thy may conflict  
or do not work

Now universe forces me and you to choose when we publish because there  
was only one AppA
the AppA for the current Universe.

Stef

On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote:


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When defining project references in Metacello, you can use a #>= operator which basically says that later versions are okay - this makes it possible for MyApp to specify AppA v1 but be able to use AppA v3 if it is already loaded...

The problem of conflicting requirements isn't solved but Metacello doesn't _force_ one to use a particular version unless you want it to (using #= as the operator forces that version to be loaded)...

Dale

----- "Stéphane Ducasse" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| I remembered that. Now I was wondering about the following
|
| if we can tag a config we get in essence an Universe: a set of  
| packages wrking with a given tag.
| But this is not quite the same.
|
| One of the problem that universes solved is that if
|
| MyApp requires
| AppA v1
|
| YourApp requires
| AppA v3
|
| I can load MyApp and YourApp separately but together thy may conflict
|
| or do not work
|
| Now universe forces me and you to choose when we publish because there
|  
| was only one AppA
| the AppA for the current Universe.
|
| Stef
|
| On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote:
|
| > Stef,
| >
| > Under Metacello, when you a release a version, the complete list of
|
| > Monticello files are recorded with the version (including load order
|  
| > dependencies).
| >
| > So Metacello is designed to make it possible to load old versions of
|  
| > projects into new images.
| >
| > It is also possible to record the versions of all of the projects  
| > that you are using, so you can record the exact version of Seaside,
|
| > Magritte and Pier you are using at a particular point in time, and
|
| > then you load that exact configuration into a different image at any
|  
| > time in the future.
| >
| > Dale
| > ----- "Stéphane Ducasse" <[hidden email]> wrote:
| >
| > | Ok but for pharo1.0 it would be nice to have it :)
| > | then after we plug metacello underneath
| > |
| > | Doru with metacello will we be able to say
| > | I want to load in the past the version of moose which worked
| with
| > | pharo1.0
| > | even if now I'm working on pharo 3.2 (the real future :))
| > |
| > | Stef
| > | On Sep 16, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:
| > |
| > | > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Tudor Girba
| <[hidden email]>
| > |
| > | > wrote:
| > | >> I believe Metacello is a very nice piece of work and it should
| be
| > | a
| > | >> very strong contender for managing releases. The ui tools are
| not
| > | >> quite there yet, but it works very nicely for allowing someone
| to
| > | >> specify the exact configuration to be loaded.
| > | >
| > | > I agree. Universes is cool but:
| > | >
| > | > - it requires a dedicated server and only few people installed
| one
| > |
| > | > already
| > | > - it only allows one administrator per package description
| > | > - the interface is well... not very nice :-)
| > | > - we would need to create a new universe from scratch
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | > Damien Cassou
| > | > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
| > | >
| > | > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes
| them
| > | > popular by not having them." James Iry
| > | >
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Pharo-project mailing list
| > | > [hidden email]
| > | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- 
| > project
| > |
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Pharo-project mailing list
| > | [hidden email]
| > |
| http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Pharo-project mailing list
| > [hidden email]
| > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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