Fwd: Workspace API

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Fwd: Workspace API

Stéphane Ducasse


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>
> Date: February 12, 2009 2:38:41 PM CEST
> To: Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>,  stephane ducasse <[hidden email]
> >
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Workspace API
>
> Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>> I am close enough to Stef to affirm you that he respects your work  
>> and
>> he is really willing to have a look at your code. As I do. I said  
>> that
>> I would look at your SUnit extension a long while ago. However Stef
>> and I are extremely busy. We are leading a group of 8 people, which
>> suck up all our time. Really.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alexandre
> Why do you need to look at my code? I am not speaking up because you  
> are
> not gathering up my meagre useless coding crumbs.
>
> The argument is not about code its about perspective and philosophy.
>
> MC1.5 is a loadable tool it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't
> then the way forward is to consider contributing to the MC1.5 effort  
> to
> make it work. That is the philosophy choice, inclusive or exclusive.
>
> Will you make the philosophy choice to treat MC as a community project
> or your project, which is it to be? That choice takes no time at all  
> to
> make. You make the choice and then you can put your time and effort  
> into
> working with the consequences.
>
> I am concerned because your philosophy leads you to continue to fork
> stuff that doesn't need to be forked and should not be forked for the
> good of the community.
>
> Another trivial example: Workspace is another tool, it could be
> loadable, it need not be part of the kernel.
> Variants of Workspace could be available. Whatever is done it could be
> loadable and work in all images. There is no reason at all why my old
> production image that is still in 3.8 cant load a newer implementation
> of Workspace (since ScriptManager loads successfully)
>
> SUnit is a loadable framework it is something that should be managed  
> as
> a resource for everyone. Why does the pharo team insist on controlling
> it and forking. I am not asking you to "look at my code" in SUnit. In
> fact I doubt that the filters are actually working at the moment. Some
> of my code in SUnit was really rubbish until recent improvements.
>
> I am asking you to adopt a philosophy of seeing
> MC/SUnit/Workspace/Compiler/Collections etc as a community resource,
> with a repository squeaksource/Testing that the community maintains.  
> Not
> something that pharo does its own thing on.
>
> If you dont, then I cant write a package that loads into Squeak and
> Pharo (because MC wont necessarily be compatible) or Tests run in  
> squeak
> and Pharo (because SUnit will be incompatible).  Why don't you see  
> this
> level of compatibility as important?
>
> So again I am not complaining about the fact that you haven't looked  
> at
> this or that bit of code. Your response of "we havent had time to look
> at that " winds me up, because I hear it as "we havent had time to  
> audit
> your potentially inferior code that might be below us to use." and  
> that
> very attitude misses the point completely.
>
> All of Stef objections, demonstrate that this is how he sees it.
>
> I am complaining that you see the issue as a bunch of "potentially
> inferior" code contributions to your cause, rather than "we have
> something to contribute to the community of SUnit and MC users,  
> because
> MC and SUnit are frameworks that everyone uses and depends on."
>
> regards
>
> Keith
>


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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

Damien Cassou
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> So again I am not complaining about the fact that you haven't looked
>> at
>> this or that bit of code. Your response of "we havent had time to look
>> at that " winds me up, because I hear it as "we havent had time to
>> audit
>> your potentially inferior code that might be below us to use." and
>> that
>> very attitude misses the point completely.
>>
>> All of Stef objections, demonstrate that this is how he sees it.
>>
>> I am complaining that you see the issue as a bunch of "potentially
>> inferior" code contributions to your cause, rather than "we have
>> something to contribute to the community of SUnit and MC users,
>> because
>> MC and SUnit are frameworks that everyone uses and depends on."


We believe your work (MC, SUnit, Sake and Packages) is important
enough for an integration into Pharo. We don't want to consider it as
an external package. But for that, Pharo's maintainers must have a
look at the code and decide if it is safe to include. Your code is not
of lower quality.

Have a nice day and please continue working on these tools


--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

MrGwen
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On Thursday 12 February 2009 15:51:14 Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> Begin forwarded message:
> > From: Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>
> > Date: February 12, 2009 2:38:41 PM CEST
> > To: Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>,  stephane ducasse
> > <[hidden email]
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Workspace API
> >
> > Alexandre Bergel wrote:
> >> Hi Keith,
> >>
> >> I am close enough to Stef to affirm you that he respects your work
> >> and
> >> he is really willing to have a look at your code. As I do. I said
> >> that
> >> I would look at your SUnit extension a long while ago. However Stef
> >> and I are extremely busy. We are leading a group of 8 people, which
> >> suck up all our time. Really.
> >>

One of the guy that suck up all your time thanks you ....

Cheers,
Gwenael

> >> Regards,
> >> Alexandre
> >
> > Why do you need to look at my code? I am not speaking up because you
> > are
> > not gathering up my meagre useless coding crumbs.
> >
> > The argument is not about code its about perspective and philosophy.
> >
> > MC1.5 is a loadable tool it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't
> > then the way forward is to consider contributing to the MC1.5 effort
> > to
> > make it work. That is the philosophy choice, inclusive or exclusive.
> >
> > Will you make the philosophy choice to treat MC as a community project
> > or your project, which is it to be? That choice takes no time at all
> > to
> > make. You make the choice and then you can put your time and effort
> > into
> > working with the consequences.
> >
> > I am concerned because your philosophy leads you to continue to fork
> > stuff that doesn't need to be forked and should not be forked for the
> > good of the community.
> >
> > Another trivial example: Workspace is another tool, it could be
> > loadable, it need not be part of the kernel.
> > Variants of Workspace could be available. Whatever is done it could be
> > loadable and work in all images. There is no reason at all why my old
> > production image that is still in 3.8 cant load a newer implementation
> > of Workspace (since ScriptManager loads successfully)
> >
> > SUnit is a loadable framework it is something that should be managed
> > as
> > a resource for everyone. Why does the pharo team insist on controlling
> > it and forking. I am not asking you to "look at my code" in SUnit. In
> > fact I doubt that the filters are actually working at the moment. Some
> > of my code in SUnit was really rubbish until recent improvements.
> >
> > I am asking you to adopt a philosophy of seeing
> > MC/SUnit/Workspace/Compiler/Collections etc as a community resource,
> > with a repository squeaksource/Testing that the community maintains.
> > Not
> > something that pharo does its own thing on.
> >
> > If you dont, then I cant write a package that loads into Squeak and
> > Pharo (because MC wont necessarily be compatible) or Tests run in
> > squeak
> > and Pharo (because SUnit will be incompatible).  Why don't you see
> > this
> > level of compatibility as important?
> >
> > So again I am not complaining about the fact that you haven't looked
> > at
> > this or that bit of code. Your response of "we havent had time to look
> > at that " winds me up, because I hear it as "we havent had time to
> > audit
> > your potentially inferior code that might be below us to use." and
> > that
> > very attitude misses the point completely.
> >
> > All of Stef objections, demonstrate that this is how he sees it.
> >
> > I am complaining that you see the issue as a bunch of "potentially
> > inferior" code contributions to your cause, rather than "we have
> > something to contribute to the community of SUnit and MC users,
> > because
> > MC and SUnit are frameworks that everyone uses and depends on."
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

Stéphane Ducasse
>>>> I am close enough to Stef to affirm you that he respects your work
>>>> and
>>>> he is really willing to have a look at your code. As I do. I said
>>>> that
>>>> I would look at your SUnit extension a long while ago. However Stef
>>>> and I are extremely busy. We are leading a group of 8 people, which
>>>> suck up all our time. Really.
>>>>
>
> One of the guy that suck up all your time thanks you ....

Gweanael, come on. You know what alex meant. And yes I'm really busy  
with the group.
I can show you what it means to organize WCRE, ESUG, budgeting things
and writing postdoc, phd, doing presentations ....

Stef

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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

keith1y
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou

>
> We believe your work (MC, SUnit, Sake and Packages) is important
> enough for an integration into Pharo. We don't want to consider it as
> an external package.
I think that you should consider it as an external package, because it
IS an external package.

And it is used by code that is not Pharo code. I think in an open source
environment where everyone is short on time and energy it is rude not
to. Those who fixed it before, invested their time and energy
contributing to a solution and to an ideal, knowing that others would
fix it in future and do the same, and it would continue to be useful. I
consider the fact that Pharo team ignored Edgars contribution to squeak
as extremely rude for the same reason.

When I took up the role of maintaining MC1.5, I did so with the express
purpose of integrating all of the MC forks for the benefit of the whole
community.  If I had known that this idea was conceptually a waste of
time then I wouldn't have bothered. I did it because I wanted overrides
to actually work, and because I thought people would be enthusiastic for
it to actually work. How on earth do you do anything practical with MC1?
It drove me nuts.

There should be one stream of development for MC, any more makes no
sense. Again this is a philosophical choice, you either see the sense in
it or you don't. The fact that you will not adopt the choice of treating
MC as an external package for the benefit of all, and you continue to
develop MC1 within pharo is in by book extremely insulting to the amount
of effort that has been made on your behalf.

I say again it is an external package, and the repo is OPEN, so use it,
and if you find it isnt up to scratch (the tests arent), then join in
and fix it. Instead you appear to be cocking a snook at everyones
contributions, and going your own way.

Perhaps you guys are still not understanding what LPF is for. If you
want to change something to make it integrate well with Pharo but this
would make it incompatible with other squeak, then we have a mechanism
for backporting compatibility to older users. That mechanism is LPF, and
S/P, thats what it is there for. If you maintain it as an external package.
> But for that, Pharo's maintainers must have a
> look at the code and decide if it is safe to include.
Why? As I said its not their package, its an external package.
> Your code is not
> of lower quality.
>  
Thanks, my code quality really depends on sleep, there must be a
correlation there.
> Have a nice day and please continue working on these tools
>  
I am just speaking up because I found code in Pier that was not
compatible with Squeak, so I worry where this is all going.

Keith

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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

Lukas Renggli
> When I took up the role of maintaining MC1.5, I did so with the express
> purpose of integrating all of the MC forks for the benefit of the whole
> community.  If I had known that this idea was conceptually a waste of
> time then I wouldn't have bothered. I did it because I wanted overrides
> to actually work, and because I thought people would be enthusiastic for
> it to actually work. How on earth do you do anything practical with MC1?
> It drove me nuts.

I have a hard time to trust a system that references 6 undefined
variables and that sends twice as many undefined messages (see
attached screenshot).

> Perhaps you guys are still not understanding what LPF is for.

I honestly do not understand what LPF means. It is probably because I
am not a native speaker.

> I am just speaking up because I found code in Pier that was not
> compatible with Squeak, so I worry where this is all going.

I still don't know what kind of problem you encountered with Pier?
Please file a bug at <http://code.google.com/p/pier/>.

I exclusively use Pharo for the development and deployment of Pier,
Seaside and my other public and commercial projects. I know and trust
the people that are behind Pharo, they push forward in the right
direction. They maintain a good balance between clean-up, new features
and building a trustworthy stable system.

It obvious that external packages will break sooner or later and that
framework developers have to pay attention to portability. At some
point there will probably be no way around a Squeak specific platform
class, if people want to use Seaside in Squeak?

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

keith1y

> I honestly do not understand what LPF means. It is probably because I
> am not a native speaker.
>
>  
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/228650.html

Keith

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Re: Fwd: Workspace API

keith1y
In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> When I took up the role of maintaining MC1.5, I did so with the express
>> purpose of integrating all of the MC forks for the benefit of the whole
>> community.  If I had known that this idea was conceptually a waste of
>> time then I wouldn't have bothered. I did it because I wanted overrides
>> to actually work, and because I thought people would be enthusiastic for
>> it to actually work. How on earth do you do anything practical with MC1?
>> It drove me nuts.
>>    
>
> I have a hard time to trust a system that references 6 undefined
> variables and that sends twice as many undefined messages (see
> attached screenshot).
>
>  
Well spotted, I wouldn't know about that, because I don't use Lint.
Unfortunately I don't have time to fix it until April 7th.

Keith

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