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Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

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Damien Cassou

Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
licenseclean))
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
<[hidden email]>

[ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.

On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

_______________________________________________
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Gary Chambers-4

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]>
To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]>; "David
Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
MITlicenseclean))

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
> licenseclean))
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>
> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Benoit St-Jean

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

If that helps, I get 7316ms !!

Pharo0.1
Latest update: #10373

On Windows XP, SP3
Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM

Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Gary Chambers <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]>
To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]>; "David
Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
MITlicenseclean))

_______________________________________________
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Gary Chambers-4

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

Ouch! Wonder why...

(2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound (clownfish)).

260ms is best time recorded.

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM

Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

If that helps, I get 7316ms !!

Pharo0.1
Latest update: #10373

On Windows XP, SP3
Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM

Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Gary Chambers <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]>
To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]>; "David
Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
MITlicenseclean))

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
> licenseclean))
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>
> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

In reply to this post by Damien Cassou

here 308 ms
heheheh :)
so we are not that bad.
Stef

On Jul 9, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:

> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun

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Adrian Lienhard

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

[ToolSet default browse: ClassBuilder selector: nil] timeToRun

in the latest Pharo image (dev09.07.2) on a MacBook Pro:

OBPackageBrowser: 1474ms
OBSytemBrowser: 529ms
Browser: 376ms

So, its not per se OmniBrowser, but the OB *package* browser that is
terribly slow.

Adrian

On Jul 9, 2009, at 20:32 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> here 308 ms
> heheheh :)
> so we are not that bad.
> Stef
>
> On Jul 9, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:
>
>> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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[hidden email]
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johnmci

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

As an example here I took the Pharo0.1-10371dev09.07.1 image

and looked for all senders of '=='

That takes *SO* long you wonder what is going on, well the fans spin
up on my macbook pro, keyboard gets hot..
Actually I'm not sure if it ever comes back.

If I then do look for all implementors of '==' , there is one, and ask
for all senders via the menu, that takes a few seconds
but then clicking on a sender, which then shows the list of senders
for that sender takes well seconds, minutes?
Sorry completely un-usable.

On 9-Jul-09, at 11:47 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> [ToolSet default browse: ClassBuilder selector: nil] timeToRun
>
> in the latest Pharo image (dev09.07.2) on a MacBook Pro:
>
> OBPackageBrowser: 1474ms
> OBSytemBrowser: 529ms
> Browser: 376ms
>
> So, its not per se OmniBrowser, but the OB *package* browser that is
> terribly slow.
>
> Adrian

=
=
=
========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter:
squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
=
=
=
========================================================================

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Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.

The good news is that _hopefully_ profiling will reveal a clue as to where the time goes.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:12 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

As an example here I took the Pharo0.1-10371dev09.07.1 image

and looked for all senders of '=='

That takes *SO* long you wonder what is going on, well the fans spin up on my macbook pro, keyboard gets hot..
Actually I'm not sure if it ever comes back.

If I then do look for all implementors of '==' , there is one, and ask for all senders via the menu, that takes a few seconds but then clicking on a sender, which then shows the list of senders for that sender takes well seconds, minutes?
Sorry completely un-usable.

On 9-Jul-09, at 11:47 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

Lukas Renggli

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.

Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.

This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning
package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for
every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

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Michael Rueger-6

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a
>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same
>> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found
>> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.
>
> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.
>
> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the
> owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the
> package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost
> instantly.

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

+ aLargeInteger :)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Rueger
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:10 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a
>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as
>> in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that
>> Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.
>
> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.
>
> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning
> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for
> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly.

Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user doesn't care why something is slow.

michael

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

In reply to this post by Gary Chambers-4

Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual change to the default? My real question is what would I do to script setting the standard tool set as the default?

Bill

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

Ouch! Wonder why...

(2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound (clownfish)).

260ms is best time recorded.

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM

Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

If that helps, I get 7316ms !!

Pharo0.1
Latest update: #10373

On Windows XP, SP3
Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM

Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Gary Chambers <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...

Regards, Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]>
To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]>; "David
Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
MITlicenseclean))

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
> licenseclean))
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>
> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!

Adrian Lienhard

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

Good question... I was also puzzled because changing the ToolSet does
not change the browser.

try

SystemBrowser askForDefault

or directly do

SystemBrowser default: Browser

Cheers,
Adrian

On Jul 9, 2009, at 23:41 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual
> change to the default? My real question is what would I do to
> script setting the standard tool set as the default?
>
> Bill
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]
> ] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
> Ouch! Wonder why...
> (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371,
> Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound
> (clownfish)).
>
> 260ms is best time recorded.
>
> Regards, Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
> If that helps, I get 7316ms !!
>
> Pharo0.1
> Latest update: #10373
>
> On Windows XP, SP3
> Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM
>
> Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoit St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> (Albert Einstein)
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gary Chambers <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN]
> Pharo MITlicenseclean))
>
> As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
> With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...
>
> Regards, Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>; "David
> Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
> Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
>> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
>> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
>> licenseclean))
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>>
>> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
>> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Damien Cassou
>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>
>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> >
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> ________________________________
> [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo!
> Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your
> favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/>
>
> ________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

In reply to this post by Michael Rueger-6

yes probably but I really needed that when curving out etoy
On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Michael Rueger wrote:

> Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a
>>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same
>>> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found
>>> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.
>>
>> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.
>>
>> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the
>> owning package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the
>> package for every method is removed the sender browser opens almost
>> instantly.
>
> Then we should remove or at least temporarily disable it. The user
> doesn't care why something is slow.
>
> michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard

welcome to squeak....
On Jul 10, 2009, at 6:31 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> Good question... I was also puzzled because changing the ToolSet does
> not change the browser.
>
> try
>
> SystemBrowser askForDefault
>
> or directly do
>
> SystemBrowser default: Browser
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> On Jul 9, 2009, at 23:41 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>
>> Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual
>> change to the default? My real question is what would I do to
>> script setting the standard tool set as the default?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]
>> ] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
>> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
>> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
>> MITlicenseclean))
>>
>> Ouch! Wonder why...
>> (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371,
>> Arial 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound
>> (clownfish)).
>>
>> 260ms is best time recorded.
>>
>> Regards, Gary
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
>> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
>> MITlicenseclean))
>>
>> If that helps, I get 7316ms !!
>>
>> Pharo0.1
>> Latest update: #10373
>>
>> On Windows XP, SP3
>> Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM
>>
>> Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> Benoit St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>> (Albert Einstein)
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Gary Chambers <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
>> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN]
>> Pharo MITlicenseclean))
>>
>> As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
>> With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...
>>
>> Regards, Gary
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Damien Cassou" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>> To: "Pharo Development" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> ; "David
>> Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
>> Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
>> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN]
>> Pharo
>> MITlicenseclean))
>>
>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
>>> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
>>> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
>>> licenseclean))
>>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>>>
>>> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
>>> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Damien Cassou
>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>>
>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-project mailing list
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>> ________________________________
>> [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo!
>> Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your
>> favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli

Im wirting a real package object to replace package info.
I hope to have something by the end of the summer.

Stef

On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a
>> 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same
>> as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found
>> that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.
>
> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.
>
> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning
> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for
> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly.
>
> Lukas
>
> --
> Lukas Renggli
> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

In reply to this post by Michael Rueger-6

methodDisplayStringForClass: class selector: sel

^ String streamContents: [ :s |
s nextPutAll: class name ;
nextPutAll: ' ' ; nextPutAll: sel ;
nextPutAll: ' {' ;
nextPutAll: ((class organization categoryOfElement: sel) ifNil:
['']) ;
nextPutAll: '} ']

"
nextPut: $[ ;
nextPutAll: (PackageOrganizer default mostSpecificPackageOfClass:
class ifNone: [PackageInfo named: '**unpackaged**']) packageName ;
nextPut: $]]."

On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:10 PM, Michael Rueger wrote:

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Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli

On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote:

OUCH!!!!  That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and  had a prompt reply.  After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.


Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.

This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning
package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for
every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly.

Lukas

Hmmm, really? I do have a fast machine, and it ran in 1,7 seconds for me, but when I run TimeProfileBrowser on the block (first time, later runs alot of stuff is already cached and thus won't show up as prominently if you do TimeProfile on opening a batch of windows ), I get the following percentages:
- 32% building the dynamic "all" category
    - 19% reading all subclass selectors (these are then cached).
    - 13% reading the timestamp of the compiledMethods /(these are then cached) from sources to see if they're recent
- 20% finding extension classes, amongst other things PackageInfo here spends half that time doing an includes: check with an OrderedCollection with 174 elements...
-41% building the OB UI.
-7% GC'ing

A good increase in response time could probably be seen by, as you said, not selecting all category by default, instead promising of it's calculation (In VisualWorks anyways, for those who don't know, it's the same as a fork which returns a value, but blocks if the value it attempted to be used before it's finished calculated).

2 small Performance "bugs" I encountered while checking the methods:
OBPackagesOrClassNode>>addUnpackagedCategories: categories to: pkgs does:
    SystemOrganization categories asSet difference: categories
Looking at what the includes check in difference: is done against, it's clear the code should be:
    SystemOrganization categories difference: categories asSet.
Difference: 500 repetitions in the debugger I had open at the time: 10866 ms vs 581 ms. (20 times faster)

PackageInfo >> externalClasses
reads:
    myClasses := self classesAndMetaClasses.
then does an includes: check, could add an asSet on end there:
    myClasses := self classesAndMetaClasses asSet.
Difference: 500 repetitions in the debugger I had open at the time: 105444ms vs 11447 ms (9 times faster)

With these 2 changes, the 20% in finding extension classes was reduced to 11%.

Cheers,
Henry

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UseSetForIncludes.1.cs (822 bytes) Download Attachment

keith1y

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote:

> On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task.
>>>
>>
>> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph.
>>
>> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the owning
>> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package for
>> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly.
>>
>> Lukas
>>
>>

I don't know if this helps but in MC1.5 Matthew sped up the PackageInfo
routines for scanning the image by a factor of 10 or so.

Keith

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Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard

Adrian,

Thanks for the clarification. Taking note of Gary's emphasis of the standard toolset, I dug a little and came up with this:

ToolSet default:StandardToolSet.
SystemBrowser default:Browser.

Does that do the job?

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 11:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo MITlicenseclean))

Good question... I was also puzzled because changing the ToolSet does not change the browser.

try

SystemBrowser askForDefault

or directly do

SystemBrowser default: Browser

Cheers,
Adrian

On Jul 9, 2009, at 23:41 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Dumb question: what part of ToolSet askForDefault makes the actual
> change to the default? My real question is what would I do to script
> setting the standard tool set as the default?
>
> Bill
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]
> ] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:30 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
> Ouch! Wonder why...
> (2.8 Quad core here, Vista 64bit SP1, 4GB ram, Pharo-core-10371, Arial
> 10 fonts via FreeType *StandardToolSet*, image backgound (clownfish)).
>
> 260ms is best time recorded.
>
> Regards, Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Benoit St-Jean<mailto:[hidden email]>
> To:
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email].
> inria.fr
> >
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability andlook-
> and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re:[ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
> If that helps, I get 7316ms !!
>
> Pharo0.1
> Latest update: #10373
>
> On Windows XP, SP3
> Dual Core, 3GHz, 2Gb RAM
>
> Vanilla Pharo image with FFI & ODBC packages loaded.
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoit St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> (Albert Einstein)
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gary Chambers
> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:01:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
> As I mentioned on squeak-dev...
> With the StandardToolSet I get 300ms or less...
>
> Regards, Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Damien Cassou"
> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> To: "Pharo Development"
> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
> .inria.fr
> >>; "David
> Röthlisberger" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:22 PM
> Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and
> look-and-feel(was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo
> MITlicenseclean))
>
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Andreas Raab <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
>> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The
>> future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT
>> licenseclean))
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> foundation.org
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> [ToolSet default browse: Behavior selector: nil] timeToRun.
>>
>> On my box this takes 506 msecs in Squeak 3.10, using Pharo it's at
>> 5020 msecs. That's 10x slower.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Damien Cassou
>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>
>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]
>> .inria.fr
>> >
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email].
> inria.fr
> >
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> ________________________________
> [http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ca/iotg_search.jpg]Yahoo!
> Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your
> favourite sites. Download it now! <http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com/>
>
> ________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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