GUIs with Pharo / how to learn smalltalk

Hi,

I have two questions, a technical one and a more general one.

In broad strokes, what are people doing for GUIs? My guess would be using Morphic, but googling around you find more abuse than use, it looks like, and very little live links to up-to-date documentation. It makes me wonder: is there something other than Morphic which is being used? Or is everyone doing web apps? Or is there some other GUI toolkit I haven't found yet, and that's where all the action is? Whenever I see a neat Morphic window or something, I feel a bit like there's a party going on somewhere and I didn't get an invitation. Like the first rule of Morphic club is you don't talk about Morphic club.

The general question I have is basically, am I the problem? Is it that the documentation isn't where I expect to find it, or in the form I'm used to seeing, or that it isn't relevant somehow in the Smalltalk universe? Or is it all really intuitive except for me? :) I could accept that, I suppose, but how did you Smalltalk wizards become wizards? Did you just dive in and start reading the code in your own image? Was there some master Smalltalk wizard that you knew who showed you how to do these things? I'm currently reading Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns and it's one of the best programming books I've ever read. I see that there is a great deal of mastery of programming going around in Smalltalk circles, but I don't see the books that take you past beginner towards master, other than SBPP. So what's the trick going on here? How did you guys become excellent?

I hope none of this comes across as negative; I think surely it's that I'm missing something.

Thanks,

—
Daniel Lyons

Hi,

I have two questions, a technical one and a more general one.

In broad strokes, what are people doing for GUIs? My guess would be using Morphic, but googling around you find more abuse than use, it looks like, and very little live links to up-to-date documentation. It makes me wonder: is there something other than Morphic which is being used? Or is everyone doing web apps? Or is there some other GUI toolkit I haven't found yet, and that's where all the action is? Whenever I see a neat Morphic window or something, I feel a bit like there's a party going on somewhere and I didn't get an invitation. Like the first rule of Morphic club is you don't talk about Morphic club.

The general question I have is basically, am I the problem? Is it that the documentation isn't where I expect to find it, or in the form I'm used to seeing, or that it isn't relevant somehow in the Smalltalk universe? Or is it all really intuitive except for me? :) I could accept that, I suppose, but how did you Smalltalk wizards become wizards? Did you just dive in and start reading the code in your own image? Was there some master Smalltalk wizard that you knew who showed you how to do these things? I'm currently reading Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns and it's one of the best programming books I've ever read. I see that there is a great deal of mastery of programming going around in Smalltalk circles, but I don't see the books that take you past beginner towards master, other than SBPP. So what's the trick going on here? How did you guys become excellent?

I hope none of this comes across as negative; I think surely it's that I'm missing something.

Thanks,

—
Daniel Lyons

About the "How to learn Morphic ?" point, there is a cool PharoCast that shows basis http://www.pharocasts.com/2011/02/pharo-gui-with-polymorph.html.

About my own experience, I have learnt a bit by myself (RecentMessageList, Finder) and then I have pair programmed with Alain during last ESUG and learnt a lot :)

There is some stuff you can't guess because they are strange and a bit disturbing (who said "layout" ? ^^), but then you can put some halt almost everywhere (let me give you an advice, first create a subclass, then put a halt ^^).

But as said there is a lack of documentation, and I think than more pharocast could be a good way to change this. And since we are cleaning the system, I guess Morphic will come more and more understandable (I hope) ;)

I wish you good luck and I you have question do no hesitate :)

Ben

On Mar 25, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

Hi Daniel

I have two questions, a technical one and a more general one.

In broad strokes, what are people doing for GUIs? My guess would be using Morphic, but googling around you find more abuse than use, it looks like, and very little live links to up-to-date documentation. It makes me wonder: is there something other than Morphic which is being used? Or is everyone doing web apps? Or is there some other GUI toolkit I haven't found yet, and that's where all the action is? Whenever I see a neat Morphic window or something, I feel a bit like there's a party going on somewhere and I didn't get an invitation. Like the first rule of Morphic club is you don't talk about Morphic club.

Not really truth. :) Now we are cleaning the system and trying to make sure that we understand it.
However it does not prevent you to learn. Look at Benjamin: (a smart second year students), he built Finder and now he is building
Nautilus. Start by looking at some examples and ask for feedback. People will help you.
Now this is clear that the documentation is not at the level it should be.

The general question I have is basically, am I the problem?

No

Is it that the documentation isn't where I expect to find it, or in the form I'm used to seeing, or that it isn't relevant somehow in the Smalltalk universe?

If you can VisualWorks there is a lot of documentation.
Now they have engineers too.

Or is it all really intuitive except for me? :)

No I'm often puzzled too. The point is that I learn everyday more about the system and when I do not like the way it is done
I try to fix it. My main goal is to learn every day. Sometimes this is frustrating but in general it works.

I could accept that, I suppose, but how did you Smalltalk wizards become wizards?

I do not know. But probably starting to read
- mailing-list
- read the code
- break it by putting the wrong self halt at the wrong place
The cool aspect of Pharo is that it is really improving day after day.
And that when there is something ugly you can be sure that one of these days we will fix it. Now we should go step by step.

Did you just dive in and start reading the code in your own image?

Yes.
When I started been an harvester for Squeak, here is what I did.
read the bug report (there was none so it was easy)
read the submitted code and if I do not understand pass to the next one
until I find something that I can understand
I still do that everyday. My goal is to have read a lot of the code.

Was there some master Smalltalk wizard that you knew who showed you how to do these things?

I learned smalltalk alone.
Now if you can pair program with somebody this is much cooler.
You have pharoCasts, have a look at them.

I'm currently reading Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns

Excellent book

and it's one of the best programming books I've ever read. I see that there is a great deal of mastery of programming going around in Smalltalk circles, but I don't see the books that take you past beginner towards master,

You have smalltalk by example (even if it is for VW I like it). It is more about design than Pharo by example and I would like to have one like that in the future but too busy right now.

other than SBPP. So what's the trick going on here? How did you guys become excellent?

I hope none of this comes across as negative;

Not at all. We know our problems

I think surely it's that I'm missing something.

Thanks,

—

Daniel Lyons