Gestures on OSX
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Now that Lion supports the same kinds of gestures that IOS has for quite some time, will VW be going that way?
James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Am 19.08.2011 um 00:26 schrieb James Robertson:
> Now that Lion supports the same kinds of gestures that IOS has for > quite some time, will VW be going that way? Without glitch-free native graphics performance and smooth animations, this would not really make sense. The point with gestures is their "physical" feel and that heavily relies on animation. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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I think that we should not accept that VW is on a dead road for the desktop. Or no longer interesting to make client server applications as mentioned in an earlier threat. Notice that once these things were VW's strongest points !! Cairo animations now even work on OSX and I would be happy to integrate the zoom and pan gestures in my "glitch free animations". We better join forces to concentrate on modern looks and feelings instead of the never ending store and tools story ... What happened to skinny, grid and Pango ? These are now all pushed away as "side projects" instead of the main thing to get full support for ! From my naïve point of view you will need a total lack of common sense to choose VW for a new desktop application as long as these prerequisites are not fulfilled !! So please Cincom you're allowed to stop the Bach story we now want "Lady Gaga" and "The Black eyed peas" to enter the scene ! and I am very convinced that it can be done. And in order to help you change your mind never forget that good looking girls are often very complicated, extremely expensive, but Oh my got what a pleasure..... @+Maarten, -----Original Message----- From: "andre" <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, 19 August, 2011 11:14 To: "James Robertson" <[hidden email]> Cc: "VWNC NC" <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Gestures on OSX Am 19.08.2011 um 00:26 schrieb James Robertson: > Now that Lion supports the same kinds of gestures that IOS has for > quite some time, will VW be going that way? Without glitch-free native graphics performance and smooth animations, this would not really make sense. The point with gestures is their "physical" feel and that heavily relies on animation. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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> I think that we should not accept that VW is on a dead road for the > desktop. Is it? While progress is moving forward painfully slow, this is due to limited human resources and a small market size, but it is nevertheless still moving. If you are willing to put 50% of your development effort into adding and polishing the things that VW does not deliver of the box, you can get quite acceptable results. I did so and am enjoying fast, flicker- free and smooth native graphics and a platform faithful Look & Feel on OSX. > the never ending store and tools story In contrast to working on the virtual machines in C/ObjC, coding in Smalltalk is a comfortable and rewarding experience ;-) Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by jarober
Did you have anything more
specific in mind? The gestures in Mac OS X seem to me to fall into
several different categories
- the largest category are ones that don't concern the application, and just work automatically: app expose, mission control, show desktop, etc. - ones that apply to the application but work pretty much automatically: two finger scrolling, two-finger click as right-click - application-specific ones: zoom in/out, rotate, possibly swipe between pages The last ones are the only ones where it seems to me that there's much to do, and that they would primarily be things users would want to do in their own applications. We could conceivably provide the ability to scale the browsers, or scale VW windows in general - there's actually some ability to do that, but it has some issues, and so the majority of the work would be the ongoing work on updating the underlying graphics and text frameworks. Rotate would be similar, and swipe between pages, if the application has a concept of pages, should be simpler (but seems intended for full-screen apps) As far as gesture-specific work the obvious thing we need to do is make sure that application-specific gestures are available to the application, but that's a fairly small thing. Or was there something else you had in mind?
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Well, I had in mind the ability to recognize gestures and use them in applications.
On Aug 19, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Alan Knight wrote:
James Robertson _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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In reply to this post by andre
Hmm,....you are politically very correct, but are you sure these new tools are gaining you back the 50% of the time you just lost improving the UI ?
Human ressource management is also a matter of priorities and doing things in the right order. The priority has been the web right. But if I look into my mail directories I see 3728 VW messages, 4516 seaside messages + another 1112 Pier and Margritte related things. These obviously unjustified numbers could give a naïve person the impression that the web is pretty much dominated by the Squeak Pharo world. As only idiots never change their minds, It is maybe time to reconsider .... Le 19 août 2011 à 19:13, andre a écrit : > >> I think that we should not accept that VW is on a dead road for the >> desktop. > > Is it? While progress is moving forward painfully slow, this is due to > limited human resources and a small market size, but it is > nevertheless still moving. > > If you are willing to put 50% of your development effort into adding > and polishing the things that VW does not deliver of the box, you can > get quite acceptable results. I did so and am enjoying fast, flicker- > free and smooth native graphics and a platform faithful Look & Feel on > OSX. > >> the never ending store and tools story > > In contrast to working on the virtual machines in C/ObjC, coding in > Smalltalk is a comfortable and rewarding experience ;-) > > Andre > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Alan Knight-2
> We could conceivably provide the ability to scale the browsers, or > scale VW windows in general - there's actually some ability to do > that, but it has some issues ... Zooming into windows or rotating a page on the grahpics level is pretty useless. The application needs to have a specific notion of zooming, e.g. increase/decrease detail. I'm using this for score sheets in music applications. The same goes for page rotation which usually also changes the page layout and structure. > ... and so the majority of the work would be the ongoing work on > updating the underlying graphics and text frameworks. Indeed. Gestures that get suddenly recognized and -- bang! --- switch to something different instantly just don't cut it. It's the simulated physics (velocity/mass) and the animated transitions that make gestures work. Unless there is a plan for moving the entire GUI to OpenGL or something, VisualWorks is farther away from that than from anything else at this time. I'd rather focus on the basics that are overdue since decades, than trying to mimic something that can only fail. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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In reply to this post by Maarten Mostert
On 8/19/2011 12:51 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > We better join forces to concentrate on modern looks and feelings instead of the never ending store and tools story ... I hope you do understand that when you say this you reposition VW to be for the NC and 'small shop' audiences only? Where I work we have about 10 people publishing into the same projects so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to handle our development process without hassle. Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team size grows beyond three? R - _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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> so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to
> handle our development process without hassle. I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store problems were now solved. > Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team > size grows beyond three? Obviously no, I just want VW to look more modern !! But never mind about this, and sorry If I woke you up. I remember a guy who had this strong opinion that DOS applications looked as modern as windows apps. Rgrds, @+Maarten, _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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On 8/22/2011 3:46 PM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote:
>> so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to >> handle our development process without hassle. > I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store problems were now solved. Unfortunately no, Store has finally been picked up after almost a decade of stagnation. The framework has been ported to Glorp and atomic compilation works reliably now, so it is now ready to start addressing the deficiencies we see in the Store model and workflow. The new Store tools introduced in 7.7.1 led to tremendous trauma here.... > >> Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team >> size grows beyond three? > Obviously no, I just want VW to look more modern !! We all do, but not at the cost of tools, or SOAP compatibility, or VM stability, etc etc etc... > But never mind about this, and sorry If I woke you up. I remember a guy who had this strong opinion that DOS > applications looked as modern as windows apps. Now you mention it: if our development environment looked just a little more like a dos application I could use it without being forced to reach for the mouse 'all the time'. That would surely boost my productivity :-) R - _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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On Aug 22, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Reinout Heeck wrote: > On 8/22/2011 3:46 PM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: >>> so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to >>> handle our development process without hassle. >> I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store problems were now solved. > Unfortunately no, Store has finally been picked up after almost a decade > of stagnation. > The framework has been ported to Glorp and atomic compilation works > reliably now, so it is now ready to start addressing the deficiencies we > see in the Store model and workflow. > The new Store tools introduced in 7.7.1 led to tremendous trauma here.... > Funny that you bring that up. We are looking at the update from VW 7.6 to 7.8, and we have <a lot> of tools built on top of Store. Those are going to have to be redone or abandoned <snip> James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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James
Before you spend a lot of time porting to 7.8 you should first determine if the window resize flashing is acceptable, you might want to hold off until this is fixed. Terry =========================================================== Terry Raymond Crafted Smalltalk 80 Lazywood Ln. Tiverton, RI 02878 (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> =========================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Robertson > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:39 AM > To: VWNC NC > Subject: Re: [vwnc] No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX > > > On Aug 22, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Reinout Heeck wrote: > > > On 8/22/2011 3:46 PM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: > >>> so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to > >>> handle our development process without hassle. > >> I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store problems were now solved. > > Unfortunately no, Store has finally been picked up after almost a decade > > of stagnation. > > The framework has been ported to Glorp and atomic compilation works > > reliably now, so it is now ready to start addressing the deficiencies we > > see in the Store model and workflow. > > The new Store tools introduced in 7.7.1 led to tremendous trauma here.... > > > > > Funny that you bring that up. We are looking at the update from VW 7.6 to 7.8, and we have <a lot> of > tools built on top of Store. Those are going to have to be redone or abandoned > > > <snip> > James Robertson > http://www.jarober.com > [hidden email] > > > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Well, 7.6 is in support category "F", so not upgrading is a bigger problem
On Aug 22, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Terry Raymond wrote: > James > > Before you spend a lot of time porting to 7.8 you should > first determine if the window resize flashing is acceptable, > you might want to hold off until this is fixed. > > Terry > > =========================================================== > Terry Raymond > Crafted Smalltalk > 80 Lazywood Ln. > Tiverton, RI 02878 > (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] > <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> > =========================================================== > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Robertson >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 11:39 AM >> To: VWNC NC >> Subject: Re: [vwnc] No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Reinout Heeck wrote: >> >>> On 8/22/2011 3:46 PM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: >>>>> so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to >>>>> handle our development process without hassle. >>>> I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store problems were now solved. >>> Unfortunately no, Store has finally been picked up after almost a decade >>> of stagnation. >>> The framework has been ported to Glorp and atomic compilation works >>> reliably now, so it is now ready to start addressing the deficiencies we >>> see in the Store model and workflow. >>> The new Store tools introduced in 7.7.1 led to tremendous trauma here.... >>> >> >> >> Funny that you bring that up. We are looking at the update from VW 7.6 to 7.8, and we have <a lot> of >> tools built on top of Store. Those are going to have to be redone or abandoned >> >> >> <snip> >> James Robertson >> http://www.jarober.com >> [hidden email] >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> vwnc mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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In reply to this post by jarober
The newer mechanisms
provide a good deal of backward protocol compatibility, so a lot of that
sort of tools should port with relatively little difficulty, though of
course it depends on exactly how deep into the internals they go. And
the newer models should be a great deal easier to deal with, even if
something has to be rewritten.
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Re: Store backward compatibility (was: Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX)
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On 22.08.2011 20:45, Alan Knight wrote:
> The newer mechanisms provide a good deal of backward protocol > compatibility, so a lot of that sort of tools should port with > relatively little difficulty ... except the timestamp API Old Store objects: - DBRecord>>timeStamp is an integer and has a rather odd offset ("based on August 16, 1993 7:19:47"). - StoreForGlorpVWUI adds #timestamp (note the lowercase "s"), which returns the same value New Store objects: - StoreSourceObject>>timestamp (lowercase "s") is a Timestamp object (UTC). #localTimestamp returns a timestamp adjusted for the local timezone. - StoreObject>>timeStamp returns "(Dialect smalltalkAt: #EmTimeStamp) now.". AFAIK EmTimeStamp is a class of the base libraray of VisualAge. - StoreBlessing>>timeStamp returns the timestamp of the blessing would be easier to use if - DBRecord>>timestamp returns a Timestamp object - StoreObject>>timeStamp is either removed or compatible with the old "timestamp" _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: No longer MODERN ???? was /// Re: Gestures on OSX
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In reply to this post by Alan Knight-2
Since about 2 weeks we're updating from 7.6 to 7.8.
So far it goes easier than expected and we do have many store "extensions" to better support a 10+ development team. These store extensions have to be partly rewritten indeed, but with the "new store", some of these extensions are becoming much simpler to implement. The product we develop & sell is webbased, so a modern look & feel of VW is not important for us. In contrary to better team development support, which is extremely important for us. (and there is still much to win in the area) greetings, Mathieu van Echtelt On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Alan Knight <[hidden email]> wrote: > The newer mechanisms provide a good deal of backward protocol compatibility, > so a lot of that sort of tools should port with relatively little > difficulty, though of course it depends on exactly how deep into the > internals they go. And the newer models should be a great deal easier to > deal with, even if something has to be rewritten. > > ________________________________ > James Robertson > 22 August, 2011 11:39 AM > > > > Funny that you bring that up. We are looking at the update from VW 7.6 to > 7.8, and we have <a lot> of tools built on top of Store. Those are going to > have to be redone or abandoned > > > <snip> > James Robertson > http://www.jarober.com > [hidden email] > > > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > ________________________________ > Reinout Heeck > 22 August, 2011 11:15 AM > > On 8/22/2011 3:46 PM, Maarten MOSTERT wrote: > > so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to > handle our development process without hassle. > > I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store > problems were now solved. > > Unfortunately no, Store has finally been picked up after almost a decade > of stagnation. > The framework has been ported to Glorp and atomic compilation works > reliably now, so it is now ready to start addressing the deficiencies we > see in the Store model and workflow. > The new Store tools introduced in 7.7.1 led to tremendous trauma here.... > > > Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team > size grows beyond three? > > Obviously no, I just want VW to look more modern !! > > We all do, but not at the cost of tools, or SOAP compatibility, or VM > stability, etc etc etc... > > > But never mind about this, and sorry If I woke you up. I remember a guy > who had this strong opinion that DOS > applications looked as modern as windows apps. > > Now you mention it: > if our development environment looked just a little more like a dos > application I could use it without being forced to reach for the mouse > 'all the time'. > That would surely boost my productivity :-) > > > R > - > > ______________________________ > _________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > ________________________________ > Maarten MOSTERT > 22 August, 2011 9:46 AM > > so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to > handle our development process without hassle. > > I just thought (probably naïvely) that with all the new tools the Store > problems were now solved. > > Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team > size grows beyond three? > > Obviously no, I just want VW to look more modern !! But never mind about > this, and sorry If I woke you up. I remember a guy who had this strong > opinion that DOS > applications looked as modern as windows apps. > > Rgrds, > > @+Maarten, > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > ________________________________ > Reinout Heeck > 22 August, 2011 8:43 AM > > > I hope you do understand that when you say this you reposition VW to be > for the NC and 'small shop' audiences only? > > > > Where I work we have about 10 people publishing into the same projects > so we *do* need Store to reach maturity and we *do* need the tools to > handle our development process without hassle. > > > Are you seriously suggesting Cincom give up customers whose dev team > size grows beyond three? > > > > R > - > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > ________________________________ > [hidden email] > 19 August, 2011 6:51 AM > > I think that we should not accept that VW is on a dead road for the desktop. > Or no longer interesting to make client server applications as mentioned in > an earlier threat. Notice that once these things were VW's strongest points > !! > Cairo animations now even work on OSX and I would be happy to integrate the > zoom and pan gestures in my "glitch free animations". > We better join forces to concentrate on modern looks and feelings instead of > the never ending store and tools story ... > What happened to skinny, grid and Pango ? These are now all pushed away as > "side projects" instead of the main thing to get full support for ! > From my naïve point of view you will need a total lack of common sense to > choose VW for a new desktop application as long as these prerequisites are > not fulfilled !! > So please Cincom you're allowed to stop the Bach story we now want "Lady > Gaga" and "The Black eyed peas" to enter the scene ! and I am very convinced > that it can be done. > > And in order to help you change your mind never forget that good looking > girls are often very complicated, extremely expensive, but Oh my got what a > pleasure..... > > @+Maarten, > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "andre" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Friday, 19 August, 2011 11:14 > To: "James Robertson" <[hidden email]> > Cc: "VWNC NC" <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [vwnc] Gestures on OSX > > > > > > Without glitch-free native graphics performance and smooth animations, > this would not really make sense. The point with gestures is their > "physical" feel and that heavily relies on animation. > > Andre > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > -- Willem Fenengastraat 4C 1096 BN Amsterdam www.ag5.nl Tel: 020-4630942 Fax: 020-4630946 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. Elk ongeoorloofd gebruik of verspreiding van dit bericht, geheel of gedeeltelijk is strikt verboden. This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. Any unauthorised use or dissemination of this message in whole or in part is strictly prohibited. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: Store backward compatibility
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In reply to this post by Holger Kleinsorgen-4
Those things are there
because of dialect compatibility, possibly somewhat historical at this
point. The original version of the StoreGlorp code was actually written
to run in Dolphin Smalltalk by John Brant to be able to read and write a
Store database from there, and it was ported to a number of other
dialects, including VisualAge. And a number of the objects in there have
methods for polymorphism with various other objects. And part of the
problem is that they are, or at least used to be, polymorphic with
different objects at different times. So I suspect the lowercase S
timestamp was added because VisualAge tends to use timeStamp
consistently, and VisualWorks wasn't very consistent and sometimes sent
one and sometimes the other. We could fairly easily make the
StoreObject>>timeStamp method return the same thing as timestamp
when not in VisualAge. Or return the seconds value. Although possibly it
would be better to just add a #timeStampAsTimestampObject for
polymorphism with DBObject and use that if you wanted code that could
use the two interchangeably.
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In reply to this post by Mathieu van Echtelt-2
Am 23.08.2011 um 09:35 schrieb Mathieu van Echtelt: > The product we develop & sell is webbased, so a modern look & feel of > VW is not important for us. That probably applies to many VW developers and I guess user surveys supported this. However, if surveys lead to conclusions like "will be mainly used for the web", this assumption becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It's no surprise that VW is mainly used for what it is /currently/ useful for. Developers with different ambitions move on to other things quickly and don't care. Judging from the talks I occasionally have with other interested developers, that ratio must be very high (90% ?). If VW was especially useful for cross-platform desktop products out of the box, we would see very different survey results (and many, many more customers for sure). I am absolutely convinced that VW is a killer environment for cross- platform desktop products, if only it supported a more slick UI and consistent OS integration. I'm not asking for rocket science, just what almost every other environment already can do. IMHO, it is well worth looking beyond the current user base and reaching for a bigger audience. I'm glad about the route Travis is taking now. Hopefully he will not let anyone stop him. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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+1
Giorgio
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
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