Google Summer Of Code 2010 news!!!

> "...to show the rest of the world what kind of things can be done in Smalltalk nowadays"

Yes. I really hate strange situation, when people "likes" smalltalk. Sometimes they even make some cryptic tools for smalltalk. But, when some end-user application needed, they don't choose smalltalk for it. Even if they have a choice. Don't know about ESUG, but in RSUG (Russian Smalltalk Users Group) it's a common situation.

Generally, I hate the situation, when it's "cool" to make system tools, tools for developing, tools for tools for developing, fremeworks, sometimes really very cool and usefull...but somewhy it's "not cool" to use all this staff to make real applications to solve real problems. What all this cool stuff for then, huh?

> The idea is to present potential newcomers to Smalltalk with a viable stack that could be picked up as is, to give a
> starting point for developing web applications.

I working for SmallPOS (http://squeaksource.com/SmallPOS.html) project for some time. And it's very close to what you talking about. Even more, it tends to be real application, with real shop using it for trading. I made it opensource for exactly same reason - to show possibilities, to give an example can be used to learn, to give a starting point to not start new application from scratch and finally - fight this strange situation with rarely practical application of smalltalk.

> edit
> copy
> search
> display in list
> display in report
> a stuff or a list of stuff.

Yes, all this and lot of details. I trying to use Magritte+GLORP+Seaside+Scriptaculous enviroment. It was a good (and unexpectedly painfull) practical experience. So, you can find:
- generating of lists and tree-like lists from magritte descriptions
- list filters and list fast searches based on magritte descriports, too
- custom magritte descriptors, components and memento, custom magritte renderers and, generally, how to use Magritte descriptions for something new, not-yet-implemented
- using both full-generated, full-customized and _partially-customized_ (you don't touch component's structure, and you uses magrittes field editors, but you can fully control when they situated) web-forms
- using web-forms with table parts inside them
- nested editing (to add Order you need add person, to add person, you need to add City it lives at, to add a City you need to add a Country and so on)
- using GLORP with sometimes not-trivial mappings (not VERY untrivial I'm sorry)
- using (custom magritte) mementos to fight the absence of nested UnitOfWorks in GLORP, so nested editing becomes possible
- using AJAX to make interactive - and painless - webforms. You just added list of affected fields in metadescriptor of given field - and they will be updated via AJAX when form will be generated.
- using KomHttpServer to host files like icons and CSS-styles.

I beleive this list will be expanded 'till GSoC will begins. So, maybe it will help to solve problem

> The only thing I am concerned a bit is the scope of the project. It seems quite big.

Maybe using SmallPOS as a basis will make things easier and faster, and avoid some already-made efforts. Well, SmallPOS is not "web shop", it's POS, but it should be quite posible - and even not too hard - to convert it into webshop.  I especially tried to keep it as modular as possible. I want to try to use another persistence level and another GUI one day.

Another problem necessary to solve is: I try to keep code more or less clean, but due to time restrictins I can't totally avoid fast dirty tricks. I just trying to mark them for future fixes :)

Next, I absolutely do not worried about internationalisation. Taking into account SmallPOS practically (maybe even totally) have no hardcoded labels (they all comes from magritte descriptors or from domain-specific webforms) it's not a conceptual problem, but it makes fast education virtually impossible for non-russians.

Finaly, PayPal prohibits receiving money for russian users, so I can't make a paypal connector for e-business...I just can't test it ;)

So there are still a lot of work for a student, but, utilising ready results it may make things much easier - or, as an option, it make possible to reach much more shining results with great efforts ;)


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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:08 PM, stan shepherd wrote:
>
>> I know the deadline approaches, however- how does the community feel
>> about a project to implement a real demonstration system (along the
>> lines of defunct Sushi store)?

>> ...

>>
>> Do people think it's useful for me to develop a proposal?
>
> yes!
>>
>> Cheers,   ..Stan
>>
>> PS I realise that picking a component as part of the stack is fraught
>> with possibilities of offending supporters of an alternative project.
>> But more Smalltalkers overall means more potential users of each
>> project
>>
>

Hi, I had a first pass at a proposal. Feel free to improve upon it. The
major question is whether we should bite the bullet and nominate what
technologies we would use to build the reference implementation. It would
also make it easier to nominate the mentors, if they are to be experts in
the particular technologies. I think we had some volunteers previously for
Seaside/Grease related projects?


Smalltalk is enjoying a resurgence in its development, with a great deal of
development going into building out its abilities to underpin a web
framework.
Auctomatic was a recent startup built in Smalltalk, that received seed
funding from Y-Combinator and was acquired by Live Current Media. People who
build in Smalltalk know that it lends itself to fast development, and that
web aplications can be upgraded on the fly, without the need to take down
the server.

The goal of this project is to spread the use of Smalltalk to a wider
audience. The scope is to produce a reference implementation of a Smalltalk
stack, in the form of a working e-commerce site. The participants will
select and integrate the preferred technologies, and build on existing
demonstration systems. The result will make it much easier for potential new
Smalltalkers to evaluate the technology, by seeing a fully working example,
and then to get started on their own application by downloading that same
example as a working template.

The Smalltalk community, and in particular the open source Smalltalk
community, will benefit as follows:
improved quality and documentation of the technology stack at its interfaces
Availability of a one stop solution as the basis for new projects
better ability to attract new participants and projects to Smalltalk.

The student participant will gain experience of implementation of a real
world Smalltalk project, and of the practicalities of e-commerce
development. The student would be well positioned to participate in a
startup using the technology stack.


Cheers,    ...Stan


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2010/3/10 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:

>> What the starting point is will depend on to what extent Cog has
>>>> been open sourced  (Teleplace may choose to open source
>>>> single-threaded Cog initially, keeping back the threaded FFI for
>>>> a while, it may not open source Cog at all; we'll see :) ).
>>> May be I the only one to notice the:)   which I have problem to
>>> understand since for me it announces that COG may not be
>>> open-source.
>>
>> Isn't this what you wanted to allow companies to do, when you chose the
>> MIT license?  I don't understand, why should you care?

We  shouldn't. Well, except if previous annoucements strongly
suggested this would be the case...

>>
>> I see some irony...
> Not me. Freedom of choice is a political attitude. I understand GPL goal but I
> do not adhere to it. I respect people pushing it but not in my way. I'm not sure
> that we should debate that here but we do not have the single answer.
>
>

Not sure the goals differ much, but indeed these are two radically
different strategies.
The question is: would COG have ever started under a GPL derivative?
Who knows?
Since it did not happen, current choice is between an hypothetical
something MIT or nothing...
Bah, at least we already get a closure VM in Squeak.

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> 2010/3/11 Юрий Мироненко <[hidden email]>
>
>> > "...to show the rest of the world what kind of things can be done in
>> Smalltalk nowadays"
>>
>> Yes. I really hate strange situation, when people "likes" smalltalk.
>> Sometimes they even make some cryptic tools for smalltalk. But, when some
>> end-user application needed, they don't choose smalltalk for it. Even if
>> they have a choice. Don't know about ESUG, but in RSUG (Russian Smalltalk
>> Users Group) it's a common situation.
>>
>> Generally, I hate the situation, when it's "cool" to make system tools,
>> tools for developing, tools for tools for developing, fremeworks,
>> sometimes
>> really very cool and usefull...but somewhy it's "not cool" to use all
>> this
>> staff to make real applications to solve real problems. What all this
>> cool
>> stuff for then, huh?
>>
>> > The idea is to present potential newcomers to Smalltalk with a viable
>> stack that could be picked up as is, to give a
>> > starting point for developing web applications.
>>
>> I working for SmallPOS (http://squeaksource.com/SmallPOS.html) project
>> for
>> some time. And it's very close to what you talking about. Even more, it
>> tends to be real application, with real shop using it for trading. I made
>> it
>> opensource for exactly same reason - to show possibilities, to give an
>> example can be used to learn, to give a starting point to not start new
>> application from scratch and finally - fight this strange situation with
>> rarely practical application of smalltalk.
>>
>> > edit
>> > copy
>> > search
>> > display in list
>> > display in report
>> > a stuff or a list of stuff.
>>
>> Yes, all this and lot of details. I trying to use
>> Magritte+GLORP+Seaside+Scriptaculous enviroment. It was a good (and
>> unexpectedly painfull) practical experience. So, you can find:
>> - generating of lists and tree-like lists from magritte descriptions
>> - list filters and list fast searches based on magritte descriports, too
>> - custom magritte descriptors, components and memento, custom magritte
>> renderers and, generally, how to use Magritte descriptions for something
>> new, not-yet-implemented
>> - using both full-generated, full-customized and _partially-customized_
>> (you don't touch component's structure, and you uses magrittes field
>> editors, but you can fully control when they situated) web-forms
>> - using web-forms with table parts inside them
>> - nested editing (to add Order you need add person, to add person, you
>> need
>> to add City it lives at, to add a City you need to add a Country and so
>> on)
>> - using GLORP with sometimes not-trivial mappings (not VERY untrivial I'm
>> sorry)
>> - using (custom magritte) mementos to fight the absence of nested
>> UnitOfWorks in GLORP, so nested editing becomes possible
>> - using AJAX to make interactive - and painless - webforms. You just
>> added
>> list of affected fields in metadescriptor of given field - and they will
>> be
>> updated via AJAX when form will be generated.
>> - using KomHttpServer to host files like icons and CSS-styles.
>>
>> I beleive this list will be expanded 'till GSoC will begins. So, maybe it
>> will help to solve problem
>>
>> > The only thing I am concerned a bit is the scope of the project. It
>> seems
>> quite big.
>>
>> Maybe using SmallPOS as a basis will make things easier and faster, and
>> avoid some already-made efforts. Well, SmallPOS is not "web shop", it's
>> POS,
>> but it should be quite posible - and even not too hard - to convert it
>> into
>> webshop.  I especially tried to keep it as modular as possible. I want to
>> try to use another persistence level and another GUI one day.
>>
>> Another problem necessary to solve is: I try to keep code more or less
>> clean, but due to time restrictins I can't totally avoid fast dirty
>> tricks.
>> I just trying to mark them for future fixes :)
>>
>> Next, I absolutely do not worried about internationalisation. Taking into
>> account SmallPOS practically (maybe even totally) have no hardcoded
>> labels
>> (they all comes from magritte descriptors or from domain-specific
>> webforms)
>> it's not a conceptual problem, but it makes fast education virtually
>> impossible for non-russians.
>>
>> Finaly, PayPal prohibits receiving money for russian users, so I can't
>> make
>> a paypal connector for e-business...I just can't test it ;)
>>
>> So there are still a lot of work for a student, but, utilising ready
>> results it may make things much easier - or, as an option, it make
>> possible
>> to reach much more shining results with great efforts ;)
>>
>

Hi Юрий Мироненко ( is that Tallman? - I got your reply third hand  via
different lists  ;)   )

I wasn't aware of SmallPOS, and indeed it sounds like it could be a great
starting point for such a project. I'll try to load it up soon; are there
any screenshots etc available?

I'm glad you've used Magritte for it. Could this act as an abstraction layer
for the GUI side? I ask because there seems more action in JQueryUI than
Scriptaculous in the Seaside world. It would be perfect if the reference
application could be GUI agnostic. Similar argument for persistence
back-end.

re internationalisation, & putting on a marketing hat for a moment, the name
sounds a lot like the fatal disease smallpox. If you're willing to consider
rebranding, that could be worth considering. It could be the sort of thing
people only notice once your application becomes well known, and then
rebranding is difficult.

Also re internationalisation, it could be a nice to have feature that people
could provide translations for a given phrase in their own language, from
within the application. Not hard to do I think, but perhaps would need to be
moderated.

Thanks for the suggestion, and for supporting the idea,    ...Stan




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Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> So...I keep the proposal as it first version or do I change something ?
>

I think it can stay as is, as we're not specifying the technology stack
...Stan
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Mariano, the proposals are related in wanting to show the stack fully
integrated. The healthcare application wouldn't have the second benefit that
it could be set up ready to roll for a web business. I think that would be a
key deliverable of the process I had in mind. It sounds like SmallPOS would
be a closer fit from that point of view. So I'd prefer to keep them
separate; an attempt to do both projects as one would probably be too large
to get either part done.

Cheers,   ...Stan

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Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> 2010/3/11 Юрий Мироненко <[hidden email]>
>
>> > "...to show the rest of the world what kind of things can be done in
>> Smalltalk nowadays"
>>
>> Yes. I really hate strange situation, when people "likes" smalltalk.
>> Sometimes they even make some cryptic tools for smalltalk. But, when some
>> end-user application needed, they don't choose smalltalk for it. Even if
>> they have a choice. Don't know about ESUG, but in RSUG (Russian Smalltalk
>> Users Group) it's a common situation.
>>
>> Generally, I hate the situation, when it's "cool" to make system tools,
>> tools for developing, tools for tools for developing, fremeworks,
>> sometimes
>> really very cool and usefull...but somewhy it's "not cool" to use all
>> this
>> staff to make real applications to solve real problems. What all this
>> cool
>> stuff for then, huh?
>>
>> > The idea is to present potential newcomers to Smalltalk with a viable
>> stack that could be picked up as is, to give a
>> > starting point for developing web applications.
>>
>> I working for SmallPOS (http://squeaksource.com/SmallPOS.html) project
>> for
>> some time. And it's very close to what you talking about. Even more, it
>> tends to be real application, with real shop using it for trading. I made
>> it
>> opensource for exactly same reason - to show possibilities, to give an
>> example can be used to learn, to give a starting point to not start new
>> application from scratch and finally - fight this strange situation with
>> rarely practical application of smalltalk.
>>
>> > edit
>> > copy
>> > search
>> > display in list
>> > display in report
>> > a stuff or a list of stuff.
>>
>> Yes, all this and lot of details. I trying to use
>> Magritte+GLORP+Seaside+Scriptaculous enviroment. It was a good (and
>> unexpectedly painfull) practical experience. So, you can find:
>> - generating of lists and tree-like lists from magritte descriptions
>> - list filters and list fast searches based on magritte descriports, too
>> - custom magritte descriptors, components and memento, custom magritte
>> renderers and, generally, how to use Magritte descriptions for something
>> new, not-yet-implemented
>> - using both full-generated, full-customized and _partially-customized_
>> (you don't touch component's structure, and you uses magrittes field
>> editors, but you can fully control when they situated) web-forms
>> - using web-forms with table parts inside them
>> - nested editing (to add Order you need add person, to add person, you
>> need
>> to add City it lives at, to add a City you need to add a Country and so
>> on)
>> - using GLORP with sometimes not-trivial mappings (not VERY untrivial I'm
>> sorry)
>> - using (custom magritte) mementos to fight the absence of nested
>> UnitOfWorks in GLORP, so nested editing becomes possible
>> - using AJAX to make interactive - and painless - webforms. You just
>> added
>> list of affected fields in metadescriptor of given field - and they will
>> be
>> updated via AJAX when form will be generated.
>> - using KomHttpServer to host files like icons and CSS-styles.
>>
>> I beleive this list will be expanded 'till GSoC will begins. So, maybe it
>> will help to solve problem
>>
>> > The only thing I am concerned a bit is the scope of the project. It
>> seems
>> quite big.
>>
>> Maybe using SmallPOS as a basis will make things easier and faster, and
>> avoid some already-made efforts. Well, SmallPOS is not "web shop", it's
>> POS,
>> but it should be quite posible - and even not too hard - to convert it
>> into
>> webshop.  I especially tried to keep it as modular as possible. I want to
>> try to use another persistence level and another GUI one day.
>>
>> Another problem necessary to solve is: I try to keep code more or less
>> clean, but due to time restrictins I can't totally avoid fast dirty
>> tricks.
>> I just trying to mark them for future fixes :)
>>
>> Next, I absolutely do not worried about internationalisation. Taking into
>> account SmallPOS practically (maybe even totally) have no hardcoded
>> labels
>> (they all comes from magritte descriptors or from domain-specific
>> webforms)
>> it's not a conceptual problem, but it makes fast education virtually
>> impossible for non-russians.
>>
>> Finaly, PayPal prohibits receiving money for russian users, so I can't
>> make
>> a paypal connector for e-business...I just can't test it ;)
>>
>> So there are still a lot of work for a student, but, utilising ready
>> results it may make things much easier - or, as an option, it make
>> possible
>> to reach much more shining results with great efforts ;)
>>
>

Hi Юрий Мироненко ( is that Tallman? - I got your reply third hand  via
different lists  ;)   )

I wasn't aware of SmallPOS, and indeed it sounds like it could be a great
starting point for such a project. I'll try to load it up soon; are there
any screenshots etc available?

I'm glad you've used Magritte for it. Could this act as an abstraction layer
for the GUI side? I ask because there seems more action in JQueryUI than
Scriptaculous in the Seaside world. It would be perfect if the reference
application could be GUI agnostic. Similar argument for persistence
back-end.

re internationalisation, & putting on a marketing hat for a moment, the name
sounds a lot like the fatal disease smallpox. If you're willing to consider
rebranding, that could be worth considering. It could be the sort of thing
people only notice once your application becomes well known, and then
rebranding is difficult.

Also re internationalisation, it could be a nice to have feature that people
could provide translations for a given phrase in their own language, from
within the application. Not hard to do I think, but perhaps would need to be
moderated.

Thanks for the suggestion, and for supporting the idea,    ...Stan




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