Google visibility?
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Has anybody looked into SEO'ing any of the great documentation and archived questions on the mailing list?
It strikes me that I often can't find the answer to questions I have on Google, but they are often answered in material that I can find when I look manually for some time or am pointed at it by an experienced member of the community. I also miss Pharo - content on Stackoverflow, it is a very efficient way to get past road blocks quickly. Any thoughts or history to bring me up to speed with? cheers, Siemen |
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Google already is capable on focusing on Pharo related websites.
The core of our documentation is located on 3 websites World.st , this sites includes a forum website for all the Smalltalk related mailing lists Stackoverflow, Pharo has its own tag and a ton of answered questions Github.com, here are located all the Pharo books So to search all documentation about Spec on only these 3 websites you use the following search query pharo spec site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com There are other ways to customize a google search query , please look at google search documentation On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 11:38, Siemen Baader <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Google visibility?
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and slack is closed, right ?
> On 13 Jan 2017, at 01:36, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Google already is capable on focusing on Pharo related websites. > > The core of our documentation is located on 3 websites > > World.st , this sites includes a forum website for all the Smalltalk related mailing lists > Stackoverflow, Pharo has its own tag and a ton of answered questions > Github.com, here are located all the Pharo books > > So to search all documentation about Spec on only these 3 websites you use the following search query > > pharo spec site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com > > There are other ways to customize a google search query , please look at google search documentation > On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 11:38, Siemen Baader <[hidden email]> wrote: > Has anybody looked into SEO'ing any of the great documentation and archived questions on the mailing list? > > It strikes me that I often can't find the answer to questions I have on Google, but they are often answered in material that I can find when I look manually for some time or am pointed at it by an experienced member of the community. > > I also miss Pharo - content on Stackoverflow, it is a very efficient way to get past road blocks quickly. > > Any thoughts or history to bring me up to speed with? > > cheers, > Siemen |
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Slack encrypts the message history and it only stores 10.000 messages You could use the Slack search feature On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 08:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: and slack is closed, right ? |
Re: Google visibility?
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so it is not publicly available/visible/indexable ?
so everything written there basically disappears ? > On 13 Jan 2017, at 09:01, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Slack encrypts the message history and it only stores 10.000 messages > > You could use the Slack search feature > > https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202528808-Search-for-messages-and-files > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 08:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > and slack is closed, right ? > > > > > On 13 Jan 2017, at 01:36, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > Google already is capable on focusing on Pharo related websites. > > > > > > The core of our documentation is located on 3 websites > > > > > > World.st , this sites includes a forum website for all the Smalltalk related mailing lists > > > Stackoverflow, Pharo has its own tag and a ton of answered questions > > > Github.com, here are located all the Pharo books > > > > > > So to search all documentation about Spec on only these 3 websites you use the following search query > > > > > > pharo spec site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com > > > > > > There are other ways to customize a google search query , please look at google search documentation > > > On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 11:38, Siemen Baader <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Has anybody looked into SEO'ing any of the great documentation and archived questions on the mailing list? > > > > > > It strikes me that I often can't find the answer to questions I have on Google, but they are often answered in material that I can find when I look manually for some time or am pointed at it by an experienced member of the community. > > > > > > I also miss Pharo - content on Stackoverflow, it is a very efficient way to get past road blocks quickly. > > > > > > Any thoughts or history to bring me up to speed with? > > > > > > cheers, > > > Siemen > > > > > |
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It eventually disappears , it keep the last 10.000 messages No it's not publicly visible quite the contrary , Slack prioritize privacy because it's meant to be used by teams working on commercial projects which are the ones more likely to pay for a slack subscription. If you want to search as a teams's history you need to gain access as a guest or a member , in both cases you will need an invite. So it makes little sense for Slack to give Google Acess to its teams history. If you as a team want to have unlimited messages then you will need to pay for the Slack subscription. Of course none can stop us from creating a bot that will copy the messages to an HTML website , that Google can search, hence lifting the 10k limit as well. Or even better commit those messages to a github repo that can be loaded as a project inside a Pharo image
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 10:05, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: so it is not publicly available/visible/indexable ? |
Re: Google visibility?
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so it is not a good idea for an open source project, as I feared.
> On 13 Jan 2017, at 09:15, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > It eventually disappears , it keep the last 10.000 messages > > No it's not publicly visible quite the contrary , Slack prioritize privacy because it's meant to be used by teams working on commercial projects which are the ones more likely to pay for a slack subscription. > > If you want to search as a teams's history you need to gain access as a guest or a member , in both cases you will need an invite. So it makes little sense for Slack to give Google Acess to its teams history. > > If you as a team want to have unlimited messages then you will need to pay for the Slack subscription. > > Of course none can stop us from creating a bot that will copy the messages to an HTML website , that Google can search, hence lifting the 10k limit as well. Or even better commit those messages to a github repo that can be loaded as a project inside a Pharo image > On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 10:05, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > so it is not publicly available/visible/indexable ? > > so everything written there basically disappears ? > > > > > On 13 Jan 2017, at 09:01, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > Slack encrypts the message history and it only stores 10.000 messages > > > > > > You could use the Slack search feature > > > > > > https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202528808-Search-for-messages-and-files > > > > > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 08:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > and slack is closed, right ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 13 Jan 2017, at 01:36, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Google already is capable on focusing on Pharo related websites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The core of our documentation is located on 3 websites > > > > > > > > > > > > > > World.st , this sites includes a forum website for all the Smalltalk related mailing lists > > > > > > > Stackoverflow, Pharo has its own tag and a ton of answered questions > > > > > > > Github.com, here are located all the Pharo books > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So to search all documentation about Spec on only these 3 websites you use the following search query > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pharo spec site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are other ways to customize a google search query , please look at google search documentation > > > > > > > On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 11:38, Siemen Baader <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > > Has anybody looked into SEO'ing any of the great documentation and archived questions on the mailing list? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It strikes me that I often can't find the answer to questions I have on Google, but they are often answered in material that I can find when I look manually for some time or am pointed at it by an experienced member of the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also miss Pharo - content on Stackoverflow, it is a very efficient way to get past road blocks quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts or history to bring me up to speed with? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > > > > > Siemen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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Neither is IRC but that has not stopped irc users from creating bots that keep track of a irc channel's message history in logs that are automatically uploaded to websites searchable by google. Unlike Slack , IRC is even worse not even it does not store the last 10k messages , it does not even store ANY message , yet it's by very far the most popular chat client for open source projects
Proving that even the worse idea can be turned to the best idea very easily On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 10:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: so it is not a good idea for an open source project, as I feared. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
unless we pay.
they basically kidnap our messages and demand a ransom for them (and is expensive)… and the model seems to work, everybody prefers using that than a searchable tool :( I would prefer to use an open tool, but well… slack gives us a lot of features and life is like this :( Esteban > On 13 Jan 2017, at 09:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > so it is not publicly available/visible/indexable ? > so everything written there basically disappears ? > >> On 13 Jan 2017, at 09:01, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Slack encrypts the message history and it only stores 10.000 messages >> >> You could use the Slack search feature >> >> https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202528808-Search-for-messages-and-files >> >> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 08:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> and slack is closed, right ? >> >> >> >>> On 13 Jan 2017, at 01:36, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Google already is capable on focusing on Pharo related websites. >> >>> >> >>> The core of our documentation is located on 3 websites >> >>> >> >>> World.st , this sites includes a forum website for all the Smalltalk related mailing lists >> >>> Stackoverflow, Pharo has its own tag and a ton of answered questions >> >>> Github.com, here are located all the Pharo books >> >>> >> >>> So to search all documentation about Spec on only these 3 websites you use the following search query >> >>> >> >>> pharo spec site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com >> >>> >> >>> There are other ways to customize a google search query , please look at google search documentation >> >>> On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 11:38, Siemen Baader <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> Has anybody looked into SEO'ing any of the great documentation and archived questions on the mailing list? >> >>> >> >>> It strikes me that I often can't find the answer to questions I have on Google, but they are often answered in material that I can find when I look manually for some time or am pointed at it by an experienced member of the community. >> >>> >> >>> I also miss Pharo - content on Stackoverflow, it is a very efficient way to get past road blocks quickly. >> >>> >> >>> Any thoughts or history to bring me up to speed with? >> >>> >> >>> cheers, >> >>> Siemen >> >> >> >> >> > > |
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There are open source alternatives
This https://rocket.chat And this https://riot.im/app/#/directory On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 at 10:26, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: unless we pay. |
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Am 13.01.17 um 09:25 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano:
> unless we pay. > they basically kidnap our messages and demand a ransom for them (and is expensive)… and the model seems to work, everybody prefers using that than a searchable tool :( no, you give them to them for free and liberally. People don't understand the difference and tend to shout out: bad guys, we need more laws! > > I would prefer to use an open tool, but well… slack gives us a lot of features and life is like this :( Is the usenet still around? It had all of what you ask for, without the colors and emojis, though. The ones from my generation may remember comp.lang.smalltalk and subforums. It was a great way to publicly discuss things... Sorry for this, but I couldn't hold it back. .. and please, be careful before you shout: Google groups! > Joachim |
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... it's official now: I don't know the difference between discussion
groups and a chat.... So forget my last post, or simply accept that I'm not a chat fan. Often enough, I hardly understand what I am talking about, so a typical chat session is far beyond my horizon ;-) Joachim |
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> Am 13.01.2017 um 09:36 schrieb [hidden email]: > > ... it's official now: I don't know the difference between discussion groups and a chat.... > > So forget my last post, or simply accept that I'm not a chat fan. > Often enough, I hardly understand what I am talking about, so a typical chat session is far beyond my horizon ;-) > So, the chat might be exactly the medium for you because you can edit messages afterwards ;) Norbert |
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Am 13.01.17 um 09:38 schrieb Norbert Hartl:
> > So, the chat might be exactly the medium for you because you can edit messages afterwards ; > > Norbert Or somebody should revoke my internet users' licence ;-) Joachim |
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
"Is the usenet still around? It had all of what you ask for, without the colors and emojis, though" Everything is still around and kicking, usenets , bbs , Amiga, Amstrad, Atari , dos and a much more All of the actively developed with colors, emojis , acess to internet, 3D graphics, movies, sound, music and integrated with many modern technologies because vintage will always be super cool and enjoyable It may surprise Pharo developers since for many of them is kinda like a taboo to a admit the true age of Pharo legacy code, but there a ton of people that prefer the simplicity and elegance of 30 year old technology over new technology anyway. Obviously because they are aware how easy it is to integrate old with new. I was recently at the Athens comic con festival and one of the main attractions was an area dedicated to vintage computers and consoles with a very active community, they were even televised because they allowed anyone to use these computers and because the con was a huge success . I was pleasantly surprise to see people who enjoyed using these computers were not people raised with amigas and Amstrad and ataris but also kids raised with modern pcs , PS4 , Xbox one etc. Showing that anyone can enjoy old technology. |
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Okay, now that I helped hitchhike this
thread into completely different spheres... ;-)
I don't think this is only a question of enjoying old tech or vintage fanboyhood. It is also about questonable added value of new technologies. I remember the days when all my newsgroups were in my Mail client (opera or thunderbird). Stuff was easy and you could search stuff. Everything was in one place., be it chess related, car repair tips or computing stuff. I used the same GUI for all of that. And everybody went there, not to a number of othjer places. These days we use StackOverflow. Or ServerFault. Or Google+/Groups. Or Facebook, or Xing or Twitter or you name it. Sure, we have bots to copy everything from everywhere to anywehre else. But, hey, where's the value of this. Even worse: if somebody happens to drop by comp.lang.smalltalk, they must have the impression this is a long gone technology, because we now discuss elsewhere and left that space to pill and investment bandits and trolls. But, hey, we're off-topic now.... Joachim ;-) Am 13.01.17 um 09:58 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis:
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel [hidden email] Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 |
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Google Groups .... seriously ? Google groups were never popular and practically almost none cares about it, its one the thousands failed abandonware products of Google. G+ is not in a much better state either. Mailing lists and IRC is still by far the most popular with open source projects. Anything else is far less. "
" Essentially the title of the thread is "what I can search pharo related with google search" .... so , no we are not. In order to be off topic we will have to discuss something that is not pharo and google search related. So let me rest assure you , you are way on topic, nothing to worry about. Actually I have to thank you because with Google Groups you reminded me another site to add to that google search query, Reddit. Not as active as world.st but active enough , so add that to that query |
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To be honest, I think our answer
doesn't really fit to the original post ;-)
The OP wanted to express their worries about the fact that it is not easy to find content for Pharo, even though it is there. This is more a critique that says: the content is hard to find if you just know a keyword to look for. As soon as I know I have to enter this into Google: pharo spec
site:world.st OR site:stackoverflow.com OR site:github.com OR
site:reddit.com/r/smalltalk/
I am in the lucky position to not need that know how anymore, because I know the places. It's like "once you are in front of the store, you'll know how to find it!". ;-) So the topic of this thread is that maybe some SEO is needed rather than educating people in searching better ;-) So we were both off-topic like hell ;-) Joachim |
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On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:14 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, that was my point.. Thanks for the discussion though :) Perhaps it would make sense to add that custom search to Pharo.org. I looked into it, but it seemed that one has to pay for that.. Maybe am wrong. -- Siemen |
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I though that my example made this clear, apparently it did not so let me try again.
No SEO is not a problem SEO is not a problem because we have made the smart move as a community to host our projects and discussions and documentation to existing google friendly websites like Github, world.st and stackoverflow. As such its very easy to find documentation about Pharo. The problem here is what makes Google special, what made it the No1 search engine. You see before Google there was this search engine called AltaVista, AltaVista was doing what is relevant to a SEO , it was basically searching for sites and bringing up accurate search results . So if Google search was doing just that we will still be using AltaVista and Google would have never existed. However what Google devs did that made a huge diffirence was to design an algorithm using AI techniques that not only returned accurate results but also related results. This made it possible to withstand spelling errors or differentiate between search results using the same name etc. Also customised the experience by keeping track of user's preferences via google analytics. As such this poses a problem, that Google not only is able to find a vast majority of the Pharo documentation because as I said we host it in websites taking advantage of SEO but also related info. This poses a problem because Google mixes up pharo results with pharao results, or maybe its still pharo but its a book, or a music band etc. The query I provided eliminates a problem that SEO cannot eliminate , removing the search results that is highly likely to not be related to OUR pharo. However even if this query provides a nice solution it is not waterproof. For example it does not include many of the blogs that keep track of pharo progress and document many of its parts. For example Ben recently posted a very nice guide for UFFI. Also there is no need for this query if you search for specific class or method names since its far less likely that Google will return irrelevant results. Also another problem is the rapid improvement of Pharo, this something begineers are not aware because its easy to underestimate how fast Pharo is moving mainly because of the fact is not popular. But Pharo moves forward very fast. So fast that is easy to fall in the trap of finding the right method and right class but not the up to date version, thus you need also date and time based search as well that google also provides. Also you may prefer to find PDFs because you will like a guide or in depth tutorial instead of some random discussion , or a two pages tutorial in that case you will add to the query filteype:PDF and so on Learning how to search with Google is an art by itself and no bringing it inside the Pharo image wont make a big difference to newcomers because we still need to implement a complex GUI to accommodate for many different needs. So we will be wasting time recreating Google inside the Pharo image and you will be using a tool that still requires to learn things similar what you need to learn for using Google search. No matter the language you are learning the workflow is similar, start with a beginner friendly guide or book, join a forum and ask for directions, take a look at youtube tutorials and learn how to use Google. Pharo or no Pharo, you will lose a great deal of efficiency if you do not learn how to use Google. So no we do not need to SEO world.st , stackoverflow, github , or slideshare they are doing a pretty good job Smalltalkhub and blog posts may not be SEO but a) Smalltalkhub is a dead project no longer maintained other than making sure the server is online b) we cannot force people to SEO their blogs, thats up to them |
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