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Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

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Ron Teitelbaum

Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Hello all,

I need to build something that shows the interaction of about 100,000 objects. The objects need to display by position and color. I have x,y positions and colors programmed. What is the best way to display these items?

I saw some of the simulation programs, and that looks like that may be what I need. If you have some tips for hooking the simulations up to my objects please let me know.

I tried just turning on and off single pixels but the result was too small. I could do some math and turn on more then one pixel to make the display larger but I thought I’d ask if anyone had some ideas for a better way to do this.

Thanks,

Ron Teitelbaum

Joshua Gargus-2

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

It's difficult to understand your needs. Is your data laid out in a grid? Can you have multiple objects with the same positions?

Depending on what you're trying to do, it might make sense to render them using OpenGL.

Josh

On Mar 27, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

Hello all,

I need to build something that shows the interaction of about 100,000 objects. The objects need to display by position and color. I have x,y positions and colors programmed. What is the best way to display these items?

I saw some of the simulation programs, and that looks like that may be what I need. If you have some tips for hooking the simulations up to my objects please let me know.

I tried just turning on and off single pixels but the result was too small. I could do some math and turn on more then one pixel to make the display larger but I thought I’d ask if anyone had some ideas for a better way to do this.

Thanks,

Ron Teitelbaum

Nicolas Cellier-3

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Hi Ron,

i don't know if it really answers your problem, but maybe you should have a
look at Kedama.

Nicolas

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Joshua Gargus-2

Each object has its own unique position. The grid is calculated to get the x,y. I tell the display how long each row is and it plots each object on rows and columns. It is actually plotting in circles as it moves down a group of rows at a time. Color is determined by what the objects are doing. I will look at OpenGL.

Thanks,

Ron

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Josh Gargus
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:52 PM
To: [hidden email]; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

It's difficult to understand your needs. Is your data laid out in a grid? Can you have multiple objects with the same positions?

Depending on what you're trying to do, it might make sense to render them using OpenGL.

Josh

On Mar 27, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

Hello all,

I saw some of the simulation programs, and that looks like that may be what I need. If you have some tips for hooking the simulations up to my objects please let me know.

Thanks,

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Nicolas Cellier-3

Thanks Nicolas,

I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and I was
wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
already have objects doing the work.

Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of nicolas cellier
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:55 PM
> To: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list'
> Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> i don't know if it really answers your problem, but maybe you should have
> a
> look at Kedama.
>
> Nicolas
>
>

Yoshiki Ohshima

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Ron,

> I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and I was
> wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
> already have objects doing the work.

What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".

-- Yoshiki

Mart-Mari Breedt

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Hallo,

I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!

Kind regards,

Mart-Mari

-----Original Message-----
From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Ron,

> I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
I was
> wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
> already have objects doing the work.

What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".

-- Yoshiki

Hans Baveco

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Mart-Mari,
It would really be interesting to hear a bit more about how you did this
visualization with OpenGL. Did you use a Croquet image for this?

Hans

-----Original Message-----
From: Mart-Mari Breedt [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: dinsdag 28 maart 2006 7:22
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Hallo,

I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!

Kind regards,

Mart-Mari

-----Original Message-----
From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Ron,

> I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
I was
> wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I

> already have objects doing the work.

What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".

-- Yoshiki

Mart-Mari Breedt

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Hi Hans,

Unfortunatly it was nothing so fancy. I basically had a C++ program that
contained classes definitions for the various objects and the OpenGL (in
C) component interfaced with this. So my problem was probadly a lot
simpler than your scenario because interfacing to the GUI component was
not that difficult. If you are really keen, I can dig up the code I
wrote way-back-then and send it to you.

Kind regards,

Mart-Mari

-----Original Message-----
From: Baveco, Hans [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 28 Maart 2006 11:19
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Mart-Mari,
It would really be interesting to hear a bit more about how you did this
visualization with OpenGL. Did you use a Croquet image for this?

Hans

-----Original Message-----
From: Mart-Mari Breedt [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: dinsdag 28 maart 2006 7:22
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Hallo,

I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!

Kind regards,

Mart-Mari

-----Original Message-----
From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Ron,

> I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
I was
> wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I

> already have objects doing the work.

What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".

-- Yoshiki

Nicholas Bennett

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

hans,

I had played around with http://www.cosmocows.com/OpenGL/ which gives a
foreign function interface to wrapper on the opengl dlls under windows.

They have a 'full world window' car game, but under that there is a straight
binding to a subset of the opengl functions.

I had wanted to learn a little 'raw' opengl so this was perfect for me. It's
a little fussy due to dll versions etc; on my old win98 it crashes, on one
of my xp machines it insists on updating the entire world window - but
generally I can have an 'opengl morph' that open gl renders to and regular
morphs for controls etc. I had no trouble extending the function coverage to
support opengl 'picking' etc.

The nice thing is that you can have quite a large area rendering many frames
/ second with low cpu usage.

I can give you more info if it is interesting for you.

regards,
nicholas

>From: "Baveco, Hans" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list"<[hidden email]>
>Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:18:43 +0200
>
>Mart-Mari,
>It would really be interesting to hear a bit more about how you did this
>visualization with OpenGL. Did you use a Croquet image for this?
>
>Hans
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mart-Mari Breedt [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: dinsdag 28 maart 2006 7:22
>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
>Hallo,
>
>I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
>Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
>walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
>OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Mart-Mari
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Ron,
>
> > I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
>I was
> > wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
>
> > already have objects doing the work.
>
> What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
>scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".
>
>-- Yoshiki
>
>
>
>
>

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima

Yoshiki,

Ok I'll give it a try and see. I see that it's a 100x100 display, so 10,000
objects. Each object would be its own turtle, I suppose, and only the color
needs to change, there is no movement. I'm thinking for what I'm trying to
show that will probably be good.

Thanks,

Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yoshiki Ohshima
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 6:19 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Ron,
>
> > I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and I
> was
> > wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
> > already have objects doing the work.
>
> What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
> scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".
>
> -- Yoshiki
>
>

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Mart-Mari Breedt

I started looking at both. I'm thinking since I'm not terribly familiar
with OpenGL and since I have some other graphical interface requirements
coming up I'll look at both.

Thanks,

Ron Teitelbaum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mart-Mari Breedt
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:22 AM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Hallo,
>
> I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
> Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
> walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
> OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mart-Mari
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Ron,
>
> > I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
> I was
> > wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
> > already have objects doing the work.
>
> What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
> scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".
>
> -- Yoshiki
>
>
>

Cesare Marilungo

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Ron, tough it is not squeak related, if you can code in python I've made
a very simple opengl-based library called 'devachan':

http://www.cesaremarilungo.com/sw/devachan

10,000 objects represented as squares are 20,000 triangles, which is not
a problem for opengl accelerated cards.

The source code is in c and it's so easy to understand and modify that
you can easily add a specific function to draw your grid (and modify the
color of each square) in c to overcome the performance limitation of the
python interpreter.

If you want you can control the animation from squeak via OSC (devachan
can display its content in a system window as well as in fullscreen).

Cheers,

Cesare

Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

>Yoshiki,
>
>Ok I'll give it a try and see. I see that it's a 100x100 display, so 10,000
>objects. Each object would be its own turtle, I suppose, and only the color
>needs to change, there is no movement. I'm thinking for what I'm trying to
>show that will probably be good.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
>>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yoshiki Ohshima
>>Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 6:19 PM
>>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>>Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>>
>>
>>>I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and I
>>>
>>>
>>was
>>
>>
>>>wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
>>>already have objects doing the work.
>>>
>>>
>> What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
>>scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".
>>
>>-- Yoshiki
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

c.
--
www.cesaremarilungo.com

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Nicholas Bennett

Nicholas Bennett,

Thank you for that. That should be very helpful!

Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicholas Bennett
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:16 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> hans,
>
> I had played around with http://www.cosmocows.com/OpenGL/ which gives a
> foreign function interface to wrapper on the opengl dlls under windows.
>
> They have a 'full world window' car game, but under that there is a
> straight
> binding to a subset of the opengl functions.
>
> I had wanted to learn a little 'raw' opengl so this was perfect for me.
> It's
> a little fussy due to dll versions etc; on my old win98 it crashes, on one
> of my xp machines it insists on updating the entire world window - but
> generally I can have an 'opengl morph' that open gl renders to and regular
> morphs for controls etc. I had no trouble extending the function coverage
> to
> support opengl 'picking' etc.
>
> The nice thing is that you can have quite a large area rendering many
> frames
> / second with low cpu usage.
>
> I can give you more info if it is interesting for you.
>
> regards,
> nicholas
>
> >From: "Baveco, Hans" <[hidden email]>
> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
> >list<[hidden email]>
> >To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers
> >list"<[hidden email]>
> >Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
> >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:18:43 +0200
> >
> >Mart-Mari,
> >It would really be interesting to hear a bit more about how you did this
> >visualization with OpenGL. Did you use a Croquet image for this?
> >
> >Hans
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mart-Mari Breedt [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >Sent: dinsdag 28 maart 2006 7:22
> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> >Subject: RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
> >
> >Hallo,
> >
> >I had a similar problem once - I had to code an ACO (Ant Colony
> >Optimization) solution that had a graphical component showing the Ants
> >walking along the various routes and then finding the best route. I used
> >OpenGL for the graphical part and it worked great!
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >
> >Mart-Mari
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Yoshiki Ohshima [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >Sent: 28 Maart 2006 01:19
> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> >Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > > I saw it but wasn't sure how difficult it would be to plug it in, and
> >I was
> > > wondering if it was overkill, holding simulation functionality, when I
> >
> > > already have objects doing the work.
> >
> > What do you mean by "plug it in"? Even you don't do the tile
> >scripting, it should be much, much easier than "plug Open GL in".
> >
> >-- Yoshiki
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Yoshiki Ohshima

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum

Ron,

> Ok I'll give it a try and see. I see that it's a 100x100 display, so 10,000
> objects. Each object would be its own turtle, I suppose, and only the color
> needs to change, there is no movement. I'm thinking for what I'm trying to
> show that will probably be good.

The size is only the default value. You can change it (err) by
modifying the class method #defaultDimensions, and of course the
turtles can overlap with each other, so you can have as many turtles
as you like in 100x100 or any size of display.

If you create an eToys tile script that looks like:

turtle1 turtleCount <- 10000
Test turtle1 y < 50
Yes turtle1 color <- xxx
No turtle1 color <- yyy

you'll see that you can change the individual turtles' color.

Oh, and don't forget to have the plugin (shared library). In
practice, that is essential for practical performance. With the
plugin, you should get 10-20 fps with 100,000 turtles moving on a 1GHz
or such computer.

-- Yoshiki

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Yoshiki,

I see the plugin http://macos.tuwien.ac.at:9009/1033496103.asHtml . I'm
running windows. Do I need more then the dll placed in the main squeak
directory?

Thanks for your help!

Ron Teitelbaum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yoshiki Ohshima
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:04 AM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developerslist
> Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Ron,
>
> > Ok I'll give it a try and see. I see that it's a 100x100 display, so
> 10,000
> > objects. Each object would be its own turtle, I suppose, and only the
> color
> > needs to change, there is no movement. I'm thinking for what I'm trying
> to
> > show that will probably be good.
>
> The size is only the default value. You can change it (err) by
> modifying the class method #defaultDimensions, and of course the
> turtles can overlap with each other, so you can have as many turtles
> as you like in 100x100 or any size of display.
>
> If you create an eToys tile script that looks like:
>
> turtle1 turtleCount <- 10000
> Test turtle1 y < 50
> Yes turtle1 color <- xxx
> No turtle1 color <- yyy
>
> you'll see that you can change the individual turtles' color.
>
> Oh, and don't forget to have the plugin (shared library). In
> practice, that is essential for practical performance. With the
> plugin, you should get 10-20 fps with 100,000 turtles moving on a 1GHz
> or such computer.
>
> -- Yoshiki
>
>

Yoshiki Ohshima

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Ron,

> I see the plugin http://macos.tuwien.ac.at:9009/1033496103.asHtml . I'm
> running windows. Do I need more then the dll placed in the main squeak
> directory?

One of these should work with Kedama in the SqueakPlugin image.
Just put it in the VM directory or the image directory.

-- Yoshiki

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Yoshiki,

Ok I got it working in the squeak plugin image. That was kind of difficult;
I'm still not very familiar with the SqueakLand stuff. I got the plugin
image installed, then figured out I needed to change the vm preferences to
remove the console. I followed your instructions on how to get an atom
simulation going. That was fun.

So then I figured I'd try what you suggested. I'm also still new at this
tile programming thing. I tried to build a test using the tiles, but
couldn't get the color to drop into the true or false block. I finally
figured out that I needed to pick up the full tile including the arrow
before it would drop in.

The problem is that it appears that 10,000 turtles are still randomly
placed. I have blanks spots. I tried 100,000 turtles and still had some
blank spots. Is there a way to remove the random placement of turtles and
get an even distribution? (I could probably figure this out on my own [I
assume it's in the add turtle code], but if you have a trick up your sleeve,
or a place to start, that makes it easier please let me know)

This looks very much like something I could use, but is it possible to run
this in a regular squeak image, including the plug in? That's where my
objects are.

Thanks for your help!

Ron Teitelbaum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yoshiki Ohshima
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:46 AM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects
>
> Ron,
>
> > I see the plugin http://macos.tuwien.ac.at:9009/1033496103.asHtml . I'm
> > running windows. Do I need more then the dll placed in the main squeak
> > directory?
>
> One of these should work with Kedama in the SqueakPlugin image.
> Just put it in the VM directory or the image directory.
>
> -- Yoshiki
>

Marcus Denker

Re: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

On 28.03.2006, at 19:24, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:

> Yoshiki,
>
> Ok I got it working in the squeak plugin image. That was kind of
> difficult;
> I'm still not very familiar with the SqueakLand stuff. I got the
> plugin
> image installed, then figured out I needed to change the vm
> preferences to
> remove the console. I followed your instructions on how to get an
> atom
> simulation going. That was fun.
>
> So then I figured I'd try what you suggested. I'm also still new
> at this
> tile programming thing. I tried to build a test using the tiles, but
> couldn't get the color to drop into the true or false block. I
> finally
> figured out that I needed to pick up the full tile including the arrow
> before it would drop in.
>
> The problem is that it appears that 10,000 turtles are still randomly
> placed. I have blanks spots. I tried 100,000 turtles and still
> had some
> blank spots. Is there a way to remove the random placement of
> turtles and
> get an even distribution? (I could probably figure this out on my
> own [I
> assume it's in the add turtle code], but if you have a trick up
> your sleeve,
> or a place to start, that makes it easier please let me know)
>
> This looks very much like something I could use, but is it possible
> to run
> this in a regular squeak image, including the plug in? That's
> where my
> objects are.

All Kedama code is in 3.9a (to be tested and debugged), but the
regular VM
does not contain the Kedama Plugin, as much as I know.

Marcus

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: Graphical Display of 100,000 objects

Thanks Marcus,

That's good to know. I'm not sure how the VM interacts with the DLL. Do
you know if the VM itself have to change? Does it make sense to integrate
Kedama and not support the plugins? Yoshiki said it will work without it
just not very well.

Ron Teitelbaum

> From: Marcus Denker
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:36 PM
>
> On 28.03.2006, at 19:24, Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
>
> > Yoshiki,
> >
> > Ok I got it working in the squeak plugin image. That was kind of
> > difficult;
> > I'm still not very familiar with the SqueakLand stuff. I got the
> > plugin
> > image installed, then figured out I needed to change the vm
> > preferences to
> > remove the console. I followed your instructions on how to get an
> > atom
> > simulation going. That was fun.
> >
> > So then I figured I'd try what you suggested. I'm also still new
> > at this
> > tile programming thing. I tried to build a test using the tiles, but
> > couldn't get the color to drop into the true or false block. I
> > finally
> > figured out that I needed to pick up the full tile including the arrow
> > before it would drop in.
> >
> > The problem is that it appears that 10,000 turtles are still randomly
> > placed. I have blanks spots. I tried 100,000 turtles and still
> > had some
> > blank spots. Is there a way to remove the random placement of
> > turtles and
> > get an even distribution? (I could probably figure this out on my
> > own [I
> > assume it's in the add turtle code], but if you have a trick up
> > your sleeve,
> > or a place to start, that makes it easier please let me know)
> >
> > This looks very much like something I could use, but is it possible
> > to run
> > this in a regular squeak image, including the plug in? That's
> > where my
> > objects are.
>
> All Kedama code is in 3.9a (to be tested and debugged), but the
> regular VM
> does not contain the Kedama Plugin, as much as I know.
>
> Marcus
>