Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
 
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Hi Adrian,
> still I think arguments like this do not help in finding the best >solution, The "egg thing" was not meant as argument, I apologize if this moved the whole discussion off-topic. My arguments were listed here [1] so can we please continue to discuss on these. >The rationale for moving the help menu was basically what I said before >- it was a single lonely item inside a submenu (we didn't know that Pharo >adds more submenus so this point only holds for PharoCore) OK, we now know: - it is a single item in Pharo core - it is a multiple icon in Pharo-dev ("Pharo") since more items are added - an "end user" typically uses Pharo-dev > My current point of view is that since we don't have a helpful help system > (yet) In Pharo Core we currently offer: - the help on help itself (which should be enough for core since we typically ship additional stuff in Pharo/Pharo-dev) There is more in "Pharo": - Welcome Workspace - ProfStef - HelpBrowser - with a loaded book for Pharo including a full browsable API as Stef wanted. - a help book for ScriptManager - the help on help And yes it needs more work but this is independent from the discussion to find a (root) place and make Help accessible >it is not really important that the help menu is at the top level. This is something I dont buy for three reasons (sorry for repeating my thoughts): - Getting "Help" is in almost any application I know of easily accessible at the root level and not hidden in another menu. Look at Firefox, Linux, Opera, ... at least on Win/Linux. - if you write a commercial app using Pharo as RCP then you want to provide Help (menu) but you may have no/wish no "System" menu - If you argue about having it at the top level only under the condition that the content gets better then why wait until the content gets better and confuse people at that point in time? Can't we just put it where we want it and work on better content? - I think we can agree that we dont want to have "System -> Help" in Core and root "Help" menu in Pharo to have them in sync - Ask a newbie to find help (I tried with a non-Smalltalk friend today and he also didnt expect it under "System"). He also said it would be better to just have "Help". Therefore I would vote to better move "Debug" away from the root level. >On another note, I don't agree with you that we should not move menus >around. If I hadn't carefully reorganized the menus of Pharo two years >ago, our menus would still be the same mess as in a previous Squeak >version. Of course stability is good, but it should not hinder us to clean >up and optimize. Moving a menu item to a better place may be annoying at >first but is quickly amortized. Again: I'm not agains menu moving to clean things up (especially the bloated Squeak menus) But currently we discuss about a good place for the help menu and you suggested to keep it under System and (if better content is available) move it. But this has nothing to do with cleanup. At which point in time will you move it? How do you measure the quality of the content? Let us think about the best place today, nail it down and improve content constantly. Nothing more. Bye T. - the help browser does not provide (much) content yet and hence is of no big help at the moment [1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-June/028287.html -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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torsten
propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to something better. I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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OK, Torsten has some good points (like, why not doing it right now rather than later?)! I took the proposal of Torsten from an earlier mail and tweaked it a bit. This shows the complete world menu including sub menus:
System Browser Workspace Test Runner Monticello Browser -------------------- Tools ... (<-as today) Windows Collapse all windows Expand all windows Close top window Close all debuggers Send top window to back Move window onscreen Delete unchanged windows System About... Settings -------------- VM statistics Start profiling all processes Start profiling UI -------------- Start drawing again Start stepping again -------------- Restore display Enable halt inspect once Help Help Browser ProfStef Tutorial Welcome Workspace ---------------- Save Save as... Save and quit Quit Note, I inlined the debug menu into System. The reason is that I don't like multiply nested menus and the system menu does not get overly long. Also I deleted "Space left". Maybe other items like "Start stepping again" are also not really useful anymore? Furthermore I moved "Close all debuggers" into the Windows menu. I kept About... in system as I think it has not much to do with Help but more with System. I also changed the labels of some of the items (like Help Browser and ProfStef Tutorial). Does that look reasonable? Cheers, Adrian On Jun 14, 2010, at 20:45 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > torsten > > propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to something better. > I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. > > stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:07 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > OK, Torsten has some good points (like, why not doing it right now rather than later?)! I took the proposal of Torsten from an earlier mail and tweaked it a bit. This shows the complete world menu including sub menus: > > System Browser > Workspace > Test Runner > Monticello Browser > -------------------- > Tools > ... (<-as today) > Windows > Collapse all windows > Expand all windows > Close top window <<<< we could remove that since you can also press the button > Close all debuggers > Send top window to back > Move window onscreen > Delete unchanged windows > System > About... > Settings > -------------- > VM statistics > Start profiling all processes > Start profiling UI > -------------- > Start drawing again > Start stepping again > -------------- > Restore display > Enable halt inspect once > Help > Help Browser > ProfStef Tutorial > Welcome Workspace > ---------------- > Save > Save as... > Save and quit > Quit > > > Note, I inlined the debug menu into System. The reason is that I don't like multiply nested menus and the system menu does not get overly long. Also I deleted "Space left". Maybe other items like "Start stepping again" are also not really useful anymore? Furthermore I moved "Close all debuggers" into the Windows menu. I kept About... in system as I think it has not much to do with Help but more with System. I also changed the labels of some of the items (like Help Browser and ProfStef Tutorial). > > Does that look reasonable? > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Jun 14, 2010, at 20:45 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> torsten >> >> propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to something better. >> I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. >> >> stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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OK, since there seems no opposition lets change it as proposed.
Any taker? Adrian On Jun 15, 2010, at 09:17 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:07 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> OK, Torsten has some good points (like, why not doing it right now rather than later?)! I took the proposal of Torsten from an earlier mail and tweaked it a bit. This shows the complete world menu including sub menus: >> >> System Browser >> Workspace >> Test Runner >> Monticello Browser >> -------------------- >> Tools >> ... (<-as today) >> Windows >> Collapse all windows >> Expand all windows >> Close top window <<<< we could remove that since you can also press the button >> Close all debuggers >> Send top window to back >> Move window onscreen >> Delete unchanged windows >> System >> About... >> Settings >> -------------- >> VM statistics >> Start profiling all processes >> Start profiling UI >> -------------- >> Start drawing again >> Start stepping again >> -------------- >> Restore display >> Enable halt inspect once >> Help >> Help Browser >> ProfStef Tutorial >> Welcome Workspace >> ---------------- >> Save >> Save as... >> Save and quit >> Quit >> >> >> Note, I inlined the debug menu into System. The reason is that I don't like multiply nested menus and the system menu does not get overly long. Also I deleted "Space left". Maybe other items like "Start stepping again" are also not really useful anymore? Furthermore I moved "Close all debuggers" into the Windows menu. I kept About... in system as I think it has not much to do with Help but more with System. I also changed the labels of some of the items (like Help Browser and ProfStef Tutorial). >> >> Does that look reasonable? >> >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 20:45 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> torsten >>> >>> propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to something better. >>> I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. >>> >>> stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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Just a meta remark...
In this thread 8 people have sent a total of 30 mails. But in the end nobody volunteers to do the (not very hard) work to make what was discussed actually happen. Was this a bikeshed.com discussion? Maybe not since designing good menus is complex and important. But my point is that we should take care, as a community, to not only invest into discussions but at least as much into *doing*. Cheers, Adrian On Jun 16, 2010, at 08:42 , Adrian Lienhard wrote: > OK, since there seems no opposition lets change it as proposed. > > Any taker? > > Adrian > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 09:17 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:07 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: >> >>> OK, Torsten has some good points (like, why not doing it right now rather than later?)! I took the proposal of Torsten from an earlier mail and tweaked it a bit. This shows the complete world menu including sub menus: >>> >>> System Browser >>> Workspace >>> Test Runner >>> Monticello Browser >>> -------------------- >>> Tools >>> ... (<-as today) >>> Windows >>> Collapse all windows >>> Expand all windows >>> Close top window <<<< we could remove that since you can also press the button >>> Close all debuggers >>> Send top window to back >>> Move window onscreen >>> Delete unchanged windows >>> System >>> About... >>> Settings >>> -------------- >>> VM statistics >>> Start profiling all processes >>> Start profiling UI >>> -------------- >>> Start drawing again >>> Start stepping again >>> -------------- >>> Restore display >>> Enable halt inspect once >>> Help >>> Help Browser >>> ProfStef Tutorial >>> Welcome Workspace >>> ---------------- >>> Save >>> Save as... >>> Save and quit >>> Quit >>> >>> >>> Note, I inlined the debug menu into System. The reason is that I don't like multiply nested menus and the system menu does not get overly long. Also I deleted "Space left". Maybe other items like "Start stepping again" are also not really useful anymore? Furthermore I moved "Close all debuggers" into the Windows menu. I kept About... in system as I think it has not much to do with Help but more with System. I also changed the labels of some of the items (like Help Browser and ProfStef Tutorial). >>> >>> Does that look reasonable? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Adrian >>> >>> On Jun 14, 2010, at 20:45 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> torsten >>>> >>>> propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to something better. >>>> I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. >>>> >>>> stef >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote: Just a meta remark... You're right, but for my part I *hate* saying "I will do" and then don't find the courage/motivation/whatever and not doing it (especially when something else captures my energy, I'm suspicious of myself :).
That said I've reached the first step I want on Autotest, so now I can work on the menus, I know how it works. Cheers, Laurent
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Re: Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1
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Hi Laurent,
Thanks signing up for this task. If you don't get around to doing it, just let us know. Cheers, Adrian On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:10 , laurent laffont wrote: > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Just a meta remark... >> >> In this thread 8 people have sent a total of 30 mails. But in the end >> nobody volunteers to do the (not very hard) work to make what was discussed >> actually happen. Was this a bikeshed.com discussion? Maybe not since >> designing good menus is complex and important. But my point is that we >> should take care, as a community, to not only invest into discussions but at >> least as much into *doing*. >> > > You're right, but for my part I *hate* saying "I will do" and then don't > find the courage/motivation/whatever and not doing it (especially when > something else captures my energy, I'm suspicious of myself :). > > That said I've reached the first step I want on Autotest, so now I can work > on the menus, I know how it works. > > Cheers, > > Laurent > > > >> >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> >> >> On Jun 16, 2010, at 08:42 , Adrian Lienhard wrote: >> >>> OK, since there seems no opposition lets change it as proposed. >>> >>> Any taker? >>> >>> Adrian >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 09:17 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:07 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK, Torsten has some good points (like, why not doing it right now >> rather than later?)! I took the proposal of Torsten from an earlier mail and >> tweaked it a bit. This shows the complete world menu including sub menus: >>>>> >>>>> System Browser >>>>> Workspace >>>>> Test Runner >>>>> Monticello Browser >>>>> -------------------- >>>>> Tools >>>>> ... (<-as today) >>>>> Windows >>>>> Collapse all windows >>>>> Expand all windows >>>>> Close top window <<<< we could remove that since you can also press >> the button >>>>> Close all debuggers >>>>> Send top window to back >>>>> Move window onscreen >>>>> Delete unchanged windows >>>>> System >>>>> About... >>>>> Settings >>>>> -------------- >>>>> VM statistics >>>>> Start profiling all processes >>>>> Start profiling UI >>>>> -------------- >>>>> Start drawing again >>>>> Start stepping again >>>>> -------------- >>>>> Restore display >>>>> Enable halt inspect once >>>>> Help >>>>> Help Browser >>>>> ProfStef Tutorial >>>>> Welcome Workspace >>>>> ---------------- >>>>> Save >>>>> Save as... >>>>> Save and quit >>>>> Quit >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Note, I inlined the debug menu into System. The reason is that I don't >> like multiply nested menus and the system menu does not get overly long. >> Also I deleted "Space left". Maybe other items like "Start stepping again" >> are also not really useful anymore? Furthermore I moved "Close all >> debuggers" into the Windows menu. I kept About... in system as I think it >> has not much to do with Help but more with System. I also changed the labels >> of some of the items (like Help Browser and ProfStef Tutorial). >>>>> >>>>> Does that look reasonable? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Adrian >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 14, 2010, at 20:45 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> torsten >>>>>> >>>>>> propose a menu redistribution as laurent did so that we arrive to >> something better. >>>>>> I agree that debug could be in another place than in root. >>>>>> >>>>>> stef >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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