History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
12 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Bert Freudenberg
(please keep Dan in cc when replying)

---------- Forwarded message ---------

Hi Folks -

I’m writing an article about Smalltalk over the years, and I have a couple of questions that you-all might be able to answer…

Who wrote the first Squeak web server?
I know there was a period when many of the Squeak downloads were simply to use the web server.

Who wrote the first wiki tin Squeak?
This, too, was a popular reason for downloads.

Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?

Ted told me that someone on the Squeak list wrote about ST-80 (Squeak?) being its
own support center at 2 am.  Praise for having everything accessible!  He searched his notes for this great email. but did not find it.  Anyone remember this email and can send it along?

Thanks and happy New Year

  - Dan
--
-- 
Dr. Bert Freudenberg
7275 Franklin Avenue #210
Los Angeles CA 90046
+1 (818) 482-3991
 


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Chris Cunnington-4


On Jan 5, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Who wrote the first Squeak web server?
I know there was a period when many of the Squeak downloads were simply to use the web server.

Who wrote the first wiki tin Squeak?
This, too, was a popular reason for downloads.


I think the two questions my have the same answer. Beyond something simple like ServerDirectory for an FTP server (which I think Carnegie Mellon used) then I think the answer is the Pluggable Web Server (PWS). It was before Comanche. I think this goes back as far as Squeak 1.23. 


It is discussed in chapter 7, section 4.3 of Guzdial’s book starting at “Web Serving with PWS”:

And here it is: 

Specifically you asked who. The initials in the code are 'mjg 11/10/97 10:44’. 
I’d be confident in saying that was Mark Guzdial of Georgia Tech.

And here he is: 

FWIW,
Chris 




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

timrowledge
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

>
> I’m writing an article about Smalltalk over the years, and I have a couple of questions that you-all might be able to answer…
>
> Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?

In the wider Smalltalk context I have two examples from long ago;
a) the RISC OS version of Eliot's old Brouhaha vm (circa 1978) was bundled using the RISC OS approach of 'magic directories'. Rather like a simpler, more elegant and much easier to use version of the bundles Apple now use.
b) the ancient ObjectWorks from ParcPlace version for Windows could bind the image file into the Windows executable as a resource using the same tools as used to bundle the assorted icons and config files. I'd say it would be a near certainty that Jan Bottorff came up with that.

For Squeak in particular; the same RISC OS stuff was usable, of course, and I claim that putting the VM and image into hardware (the Interval MediaPad etc) ought to count if only to provide an excuse to write about it. Oh - and obviously the Active Book of sainted memory should count too.

And of course, the current Mac bundles and the All-in-one packages should be there.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Oxymorons: Microsoft Works



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Squeak - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Digitalk VSE stored the image in a program file section. This made app deployment a process of save the image and ship the exe. It was the standard method for distributing applications. The development tools were in a shared object library that did not ship with the application.

John Sarkela

> On Jan 5, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (please keep Dan in cc when replying)
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>
> Hi Folks -
>
> I’m writing an article about Smalltalk over the years, and I have a couple of questions that you-all might be able to answer…
>
> Who wrote the first Squeak web server?
> I know there was a period when many of the Squeak downloads were simply to use the web server.
>
> Who wrote the first wiki tin Squeak?
> This, too, was a popular reason for downloads.
>
> Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?
>
> Ted told me that someone on the Squeak list wrote about ST-80 (Squeak?) being its
> own support center at 2 am.  Praise for having everything accessible!  He searched his notes for this great email. but did not find it.  Anyone remember this email and can send it along?
>
> Thanks and happy New Year
>
>   - Dan
> --
> --
> Dr. Bert Freudenberg
> 7275 Franklin Avenue #210
> Los Angeles CA 90046
> +1 (818) 482-3991
>  
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Squeak - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
I shouldn’t have hit send quite so quickly.

In the later days of VSE, the preferred app deployment mechanism was to put all of the application code into SLL object libraries. The stock executable looked for a file of library names to link at start up.

Deployment entailed a stock executable, a collection of SLL object libraries (image segments), and a script with a list of libraries to load.

John Sarkela

> On Jan 5, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (please keep Dan in cc when replying)
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>
> Hi Folks -
>
> I’m writing an article about Smalltalk over the years, and I have a couple of questions that you-all might be able to answer…
>
> Who wrote the first Squeak web server?
> I know there was a period when many of the Squeak downloads were simply to use the web server.
>
> Who wrote the first wiki tin Squeak?
> This, too, was a popular reason for downloads.
>
> Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?
>
> Ted told me that someone on the Squeak list wrote about ST-80 (Squeak?) being its
> own support center at 2 am.  Praise for having everything accessible!  He searched his notes for this great email. but did not find it.  Anyone remember this email and can send it along?
>
> Thanks and happy New Year
>
>  - Dan
> --
> --
> Dr. Bert Freudenberg
> 7275 Franklin Avenue #210
> Los Angeles CA 90046
> +1 (818) 482-3991
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Yoshiki Ohshima-3
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg


On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 6:46 PM Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
(please keep Dan in cc when replying)

Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?


I think John Maloney told you about it but The Parks PDA project created a custom app for the Zaurus PDA.


--
-- Yoshiki



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Eliot Miranda-2
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg


On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 6:45 PM Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
(please keep Dan in cc when replying)

---------- Forwarded message ---------

Hi Folks -

I’m writing an article about Smalltalk over the years, and I have a couple of questions that you-all might be able to answer…

Who wrote the first Squeak web server?
I know there was a period when many of the Squeak downloads were simply to use the web server.

Who wrote the first wiki tin Squeak?
This, too, was a popular reason for downloads.

This confirm's Chris' account:

 
Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?

I did a "single executable" in 2007/2008 (can't remember exact date) for Newspeak (which was hosted in Squeak above a modified Squeak VM) for Cadence.  We also encrypted the image so it couldn't easily be copied.  The image was stored in a large byte array compiled into the VM.

Qwaq/Teleplace/Terf was/is packaged as a complete app for MacOS, Windows and Unix starting in the early '00's (before I got there in '08).  The Unix packaging work was in late '09 IIRC.

Ted told me that someone on the Squeak list wrote about ST-80 (Squeak?) being its
own support center at 2 am.  Praise for having everything accessible!  He searched his notes for this great email. but did not find it.  Anyone remember this email and can send it along?

Thanks and happy New Year

  - Dan
--
-- 
Dr. Bert Freudenberg
7275 Franklin Avenue #210
Los Angeles CA 90046
+1 (818) 482-3991
 
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Bert Freudenberg
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 6:45 PM Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
(please keep Dan in cc when replying)

---------- Forwarded message ---------

Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?

Impara shipped "Plopp" in 2006 on CD-ROM with Mac, Windows, and Linux VMs. I came up with the "all-in-one" directory layout for that.

Somewhere I have a photo of the shrink-wrapped box on the shelf of a local electronics store...



You may also be referring to an experiment Andreas did that allowed to embed the image in the VM executable file? I'm not sure for what that was used, but I am pretty sure it was Windows-only.

- Bert -



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On Sun, Jan 05, 2020 at 06:45:25PM -0800, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> (please keep Dan in cc when replying)
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>
> Hi Folks -
>

<snip>


>
> Ted told me that someone on the Squeak list wrote about ST-80 (Squeak?) being its
> own support center at 2 am.  Praise for having everything accessible!  He
> searched his notes for this great email. but did not find it.  Anyone
> remember this email and can send it along?


I cannot find the specific email, although it sounds familiar and I
am fairly sure that somebody must have said that at least once :-)

Possibly these two links will jog some memories:

 http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1997-December/004323.html

 http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1997-December/025002.html

Maybe it was a message on comp.lang.smalltalk?

Dave


>
> Thanks and happy New Year
>
>   - Dan
> --

>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Michael Rueger
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg


On 7/01/20 12:33 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 6:45 PM Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     (please keep Dan in cc when replying)
>
>     ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>
>     Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I
>     actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?
>
>
> Impara shipped "Plopp" in 2006 on CD-ROM with Mac, Windows, and Linux VMs. I came up with the "all-in-one" directory
> layout for that.

We used the same technique for shipping Sophie and I think by now the all in one launchers for Squeak and Pharo are
(somewhat) based on the same idea.

> Somewhere I have a photo of the shrink-wrapped box on the shelf of a local electronics store...
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20060519085028/http://www.impara.de/projekt_painter.htm

I have a box somewhere, need to dig it out and take a photo :-)
Imagine, shipping software without the possibility of issuing an update if you screwed up!

There was also the Squeakland plugin that allowed to run Squeak/Etoys in a browser, a rather "interesting" combination
of browser plugin dll, VM exe and image. Andreas Raab managed to somehow perform that magic.

The original motivation and implementation of it was actually to ship a Squeak based game (Oceanic Panic) for Disney
Online. I might still have some screenshots somewhere, but probably not a good idea posting it knowing Disney lawyers...
John Maloney did the original work before I joined Disney Online. Never got shipped on the internets, but there was an
installation at Epcot (Disneyworld) for a number of years. We managed to squeeze everything into under 2MB for dial-up.
That was in 1999, before wifi, ADSL was something exotic only geeks had... Sorry, getting nostalgic  ;-)

Michael


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Michael Rueger
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list


On 7/01/20 2:49 AM, JOHN SARKELA via Squeak-dev wrote:
> I shouldn’t have hit send quite so quickly.
>
> In the later days of VSE, the preferred app deployment mechanism was to put all of the application code into SLL object libraries. The stock executable looked for a file of library names to link at start up.
>
> Deployment entailed a stock executable, a collection of SLL object libraries (image segments), and a script with a list of libraries to load.

LabWare (http://labware.com) makes use of SLLs to ship updates and customized versions of their LIMS system. (hope I'm
not giving away any secrets here).

Actually makes for interesting discussions between the "save-image" and "SLL" factions. Somehow both sides never
consider that it is not an either or choice ;-)

Michael



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: History Questions from Dan Ingalls

Nikolay Suslov
In reply to this post by Michael Rueger
Hello,

On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 1:35 PM Michael Rueger <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 7/01/20 12:33 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 6:45 PM Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     (please keep Dan in cc when replying)
>
>     ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>
>     Are there examples, old or current, of bundling the VM with the image to make a complete “Squeak app”?  I think I
>     actually worked on one of these but I can’t remember?
>
>
> Impara shipped "Plopp" in 2006 on CD-ROM with Mac, Windows, and Linux VMs. I came up with the "all-in-one" directory
> layout for that.

We used the same technique for shipping Sophie and I think by now the all in one launchers for Squeak and Pharo are
(somewhat) based on the same idea.

Yes, being highly inspired by Sophie project! I had developed in 2006 - 2007 an educational multimedia disc on art - "Whistler and Russia", which was published at Russia State Tretyakov Gallery (after convincing the gallery to abandon Macromedia Flash & Director in favor of all in one Squeak!). It uses heavily Tweak and Sophie's XUL programming interface for GUI and of course the famous launcher.

Another one published Squeak based multimedia disc was based on Seaside Web server, running from CD-ROM without install. But it forces the user to run the portable Web Browser for interacting with it.

Best regards,
Nikolai