How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

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How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Torsten Bergmann
Mark Andrew wrote:
>[snip a lot of things he tried to build an image for Seasidehosting]

The reason is simple:
 - Seasidehosting has a custom made VM that only allows you
   to play in a sandbox
   Looks like it is too hard for the seasidehosting crew to
   run it on a new one/or customize a more recent VM

 - Pharo image is now much newer and saved by CogVM - so it can
   not be used and one has to look for Squeak

 - meanhwile Seaside switched to Zinc (since Pharo did it)
   and nobody really cares on "Seaside for Squeak"
   that makes it hard to run a recent Seaside on Squeak
   (Zinc loading problems ...)

Maybe the community:
 - is able to provide an Squeak-Seaside image that is able to
   run on seasidehosting and that could be made available there

 - the VM maintainers are able to help to customize a more
   recent one to support the sandbox model of seasidehosting so
   one can use a Pharo-Seaside image and follow recent developments

Stef wrote:
>pay attention seaside hosting is old and I think that it will be >discontinued.

Sad - it is/was a nice way to showcase seaside stuff
to other people.

http://jquerymobile.seasidehosting.st/
http://twitterbootstrap.seasidehosting.st/

>you could run the equivalent of seaside hosting but on your machine

The problem: not everybody has an own machine. How can we expect
people to use Smalltalk/Seaside if there is no possibility to
start with small budget and grow afterwards.

There are many other technologies out there that offer free hosting
(in the "cloud"). It makes it even harder to choose something exotic
like Seaside.

Thanks
Torsten

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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Dale Henrichs
Torsten,

I would think that Heroku buildpacks[1] would be a good (modern) direction to go....there's a buildpack for Dart.

Heroku uses git to deploy code to the buildpack, but since we can use git with Smalltalk[2], now, that shouldn't be a barrier.

Presumably one could set up a buildpack for Pharo or Squeak and/or Seaside ... if I weren't so busy with git/Metacello (the enabling technologies) I'd jump on the buildpacks right now ...

For awhile there it looked like CloudFoundry might be a good solution from VMware, but VMware isn't going to go into the hosting business itself ... which puts us back to searching for a hosting service ....

buildpack for Seaside might be a cool project for the camp smalltalk/seaside sprint at ESUG...

I've already adapted Lukas' builder for running squeak/pharo in travis ci[3] using git-based repos and Metacello so I can't imagine that buildpacks would involve much more than that, although I haven't looked into the details Heroku buildpacks yet ...

Dale

[1] http://blog.heroku.com/archives/2012/7/17/buildpacks/
[2] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree
[3] https://github.com/dalehenrich/builderCI

----- Original Message -----
| From: "Torsten Bergmann" <[hidden email]>
| To: [hidden email]
| Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:35:53 PM
| Subject: [Seaside] How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st
|
| Mark Andrew wrote:
| >[snip a lot of things he tried to build an image for Seasidehosting]
|
| The reason is simple:
|  - Seasidehosting has a custom made VM that only allows you
|    to play in a sandbox
|    Looks like it is too hard for the seasidehosting crew to
|    run it on a new one/or customize a more recent VM
|
|  - Pharo image is now much newer and saved by CogVM - so it can
|    not be used and one has to look for Squeak
|
|  - meanhwile Seaside switched to Zinc (since Pharo did it)
|    and nobody really cares on "Seaside for Squeak"
|    that makes it hard to run a recent Seaside on Squeak
|    (Zinc loading problems ...)
|
| Maybe the community:
|  - is able to provide an Squeak-Seaside image that is able to
|    run on seasidehosting and that could be made available there
|
|  - the VM maintainers are able to help to customize a more
|    recent one to support the sandbox model of seasidehosting so
|    one can use a Pharo-Seaside image and follow recent developments
|
| Stef wrote:
| >pay attention seaside hosting is old and I think that it will be
| >>discontinued.
|
| Sad - it is/was a nice way to showcase seaside stuff
| to other people.
|
| http://jquerymobile.seasidehosting.st/
| http://twitterbootstrap.seasidehosting.st/
|
| >you could run the equivalent of seaside hosting but on your machine
|
| The problem: not everybody has an own machine. How can we expect
| people to use Smalltalk/Seaside if there is no possibility to
| start with small budget and grow afterwards.
|
| There are many other technologies out there that offer free hosting
| (in the "cloud"). It makes it even harder to choose something exotic
| like Seaside.
|
| Thanks
| Torsten
|
| _______________________________________________
| seaside mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
|
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Mark Andrew
OK, I'm off to Amazon to get myself a microserver in the Elastic Compute Cloud. Wish me luck.

Shame about seasidehosting, I added a note to the (otherwise excellent) seaside book, which was what sent me on this journey of discovery in the first place ;-)

I must say I am very impressed by the feedback I have got here, from people who I would have thought have much more pressing calls on their time. Thanks to everyone. I doubt that you have heard the last of me.

Mark


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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Gastón Dall' Oglio
Hi Mark. 

2012/8/1 Mark Andrew <[hidden email]>
OK, I'm off to Amazon to get myself a microserver in the Elastic Compute Cloud. Wish me luck.

I haven't tried yet (because even I haven't account on amazon, and I'm slowly learning about gemstone), but has you seen this video?
"Deploy your Seaside application for free with an EC2 micro instance and Gemstone" http://vimeo.com/18375790

Regards.
 

Shame about seasidehosting, I added a note to the (otherwise excellent) seaside book, which was what sent me on this journey of discovery in the first place ;-)

I must say I am very impressed by the feedback I have got here, from people who I would have thought have much more pressing calls on their time. Thanks to everyone. I doubt that you have heard the last of me.

Mark


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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Sven Van Caekenberghe
In reply to this post by Mark Andrew
Mark,

On 01 Aug 2012, at 19:51, Mark Andrew <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OK, I'm off to Amazon to get myself a microserver in the Elastic Compute Cloud. Wish me luck.

If you have basic Linux skills, that won't be a problem: an AWS EC2 micro instance can get you quite far for just $10 a month (first year is free). I am running multiple load balanced instances as described here:

        http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo

If you need help, just ask.

Sven

PS: the only downside of a micro instance is that it is CPU throttled (once you stress it 100% for more than a minute or so), not a problem for a normal load, but it shows up in benchmarks as quite a surprise.

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
http://stfx.eu
Smalltalk is the Red Pill




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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

fstephany
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Laurent and Romain updated that VM for the Smallharbour project
(http://www.smallharbour.org/). The idea was to upgrade seasidehosting
and make it work with much newer VMs/Images.

The project is dead (i think) but the code is still there.

http://www.smallharbour.org/
http://www.alpha.smallharbour.org/

> The reason is simple:
>   - Seasidehosting has a custom made VM that only allows you
>     to play in a sandbox
>     Looks like it is too hard for the seasidehosting crew to
>     run it on a new one/or customize a more recent VM
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Sven Van Caekenberghe
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Mark,

I am from the school that wants to do eveything using command line only, not running a GUI on a server ;-)

For starters, have a look at this:

        http://stfx.eu/pharo-server/

You can then test on localhost.

All you then have to do is set up a security group allowing traffic on port 1701 and it should serve pages externally.

I also don't like images saved with running servers (like Seaside is often used), I rather have nothing running in the image and start the server(s) manually in the startup script.

But there are many ways to go about this and YMMV.

Sven

PS: If you have a 64bit Linux, you need to add 32-bit support, as in

        apt-get install ia32-libs

For Ubuntu

On 01 Aug 2012, at 22:35, Mark Andrew <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Sven,
>
> I would like to take you up on your kind offer of help.
>
> I have my ec2 micro server, and as a first sanity check after I had ssh-ed into it I grabbed the current seaside 3.0.7 one-click directly via wget onto my server - which went incredibly fast - hoping to get at least something up on port 80.
>
> I had supplied a -X argument to my ssh command on my mac (which proceeded to open the crufty X-windows thingy) and then tried launching seaside just by calling Seaside.sh, imagining that the gui would turn up on the mac in the X-window environment. Instead I got
>
> [ec2-user@ip-10-228-246-197 Seaside.app]$ ./Seaside.sh
> could not find module vm-display-X11
> Aborted
>
> I also tried directly invoking the vm and the image on the command line,
>
> [ec2-user@ip-10-228-246-197 Resources]$ ../Linux/squeak Seaside.image
> squeak: could not find any display driver
> Aborted
>
>
> ... and even saying -headless
>
> [ec2-user@ip-10-228-246-197 Resources]$ ../Linux/squeak -headless Seaside.image
> could not find module vm-display-X11
> Aborted
>
> So I have pretty much run out of ideas.
>
> This is using their suggested "Amazon linux" 64 bit AMI as opposed to the ubuntu I am used to. I thought I should go with the flow to start with.
>
> Have googled this enough to see that other people get it. But found no solutions.
>
> I realise there is that special AMI from some guy using gemstone who has done the video tutorial, but I didn't want to have to grok gemstone along with the already tall stack of stuff I have gone through to get this far.
>
> Do you have any pointers?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> On 01 Aug 2012, at 19:51, Mark Andrew <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> OK, I'm off to Amazon to get myself a microserver in the Elastic Compute Cloud. Wish me luck.
>
> If you have basic Linux skills, that won't be a problem: an AWS EC2 micro instance can get you quite far for just $10 a month (first year is free). I am running multiple load balanced instances as described here:
>
>        http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
>
> If you need help, just ask.
>
> Sven
>
> PS: the only downside of a micro instance is that it is CPU throttled (once you stress it 100% for more than a minute or so), not a problem for a normal load, but it shows up in benchmarks as quite a surprise.
>
> --
> Sven Van Caekenberghe
> http://stfx.eu
> Smalltalk is the Red Pill
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Philippe Marschall
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mark Andrew wrote:
>>[snip a lot of things he tried to build an image for Seasidehosting]
>
> The reason is simple:
>  - Seasidehosting has a custom made VM that only allows you
>    to play in a sandbox
>    Looks like it is too hard for the seasidehosting crew to
>    run it on a new one/or customize a more recent VM
>
>  - Pharo image is now much newer and saved by CogVM - so it can
>    not be used and one has to look for Squeak
>
>  - meanhwile Seaside switched to Zinc (since Pharo did it)
>    and nobody really cares on "Seaside for Squeak"
>    that makes it hard to run a recent Seaside on Squeak
>    (Zinc loading problems ...)

There is a server adapter for WebClient [1]. We actually do fix Squeak
issues where reported and possible [2]. However as Pharo and Squeak
diverge more it becomes harder to support both with the same code
base. We're already running into troubles supporting multiple Pharo
versions. In the long run Squeak versions for the corresponding Pharo
implementations will probably have to be created.

 [1] http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html
 [2] http://code.google.com/p/seaside/issues/detail?id=650

Cheers
Philippe
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Nick
I have found seasidehosting.st really useful for demoing projects such as http://jquerymobile.seasidehosting.sthttp://twitterbootstrap.seasidehosting.st and http://troller.seasidehosting.st

If memory serves me correctly I had to build these images based on Pharo 1.2.1 and I used Squeak 4.2.4b1 VM.
I don't know what changed between Pharo 1.2.1 and Pharo 1.3 to stop images working of seasidehosting? Is there any chance whatever changed could be reverted?

It's a real shame if there isn't a site available where we can demo projects.

Cheers

Nick

On 2 August 2012 08:01, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mark Andrew wrote:
>>[snip a lot of things he tried to build an image for Seasidehosting]
>
> The reason is simple:
>  - Seasidehosting has a custom made VM that only allows you
>    to play in a sandbox
>    Looks like it is too hard for the seasidehosting crew to
>    run it on a new one/or customize a more recent VM
>
>  - Pharo image is now much newer and saved by CogVM - so it can
>    not be used and one has to look for Squeak
>
>  - meanhwile Seaside switched to Zinc (since Pharo did it)
>    and nobody really cares on "Seaside for Squeak"
>    that makes it hard to run a recent Seaside on Squeak
>    (Zinc loading problems ...)

There is a server adapter for WebClient [1]. We actually do fix Squeak
issues where reported and possible [2]. However as Pharo and Squeak
diverge more it becomes harder to support both with the same code
base. We're already running into troubles supporting multiple Pharo
versions. In the long run Squeak versions for the corresponding Pharo
implementations will probably have to be created.

 [1] http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html
 [2] http://code.google.com/p/seaside/issues/detail?id=650

Cheers
Philippe
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

fstephany


On 03/08/12 05:51, Nick Ager wrote:
> It's a real shame if there isn't a site available where we can demo
> projects.
>

You can try Smallharbour. Its goal was to replace Seasidehosting.
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Mark Andrew
Looked interesting, tried to register, got this :-(

>thisContext

>[:response | (TelnetProtocolError protocolInstance: self) signal] in SMTPClient(ProtocolClient)>>che...etc...selfa SMTPClientresponse'452 4.4.5 >Insufficient disk space; try again later'


Incidentally I am now the proud owner of a micro Server on EC2. Pretty
straightforward if you know your way around Linux and free for the
first year, but obviously a pretty big hurdle if you "just" want to
get your seaside app out there.

Thanks again for all your help everybody.

Mark


On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Francois Stephany
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 03/08/12 05:51, Nick Ager wrote:
>>
>> It's a real shame if there isn't a site available where we can demo
>> projects.
>>
>
> You can try Smallharbour. Its goal was to replace Seasidehosting.
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
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Re: How to convert a 1.4 Pharo Seaside image so that it will work with seasidehosting.st

Jon Paynter-2
For DEMO hosting - just use your own local PC.
grab a free account with dyndns.org or other service.  Point that to your external IP, setup some port forwarding.
Then run your site on your local PC.

this has the added benefit that you do it once, its easy to demo other projects.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Mark Andrew <[hidden email]> wrote:
Looked interesting, tried to register, got this :-(

>thisContext

>[:response | (TelnetProtocolError protocolInstance: self) signal] in SMTPClient(ProtocolClient)>>che...etc...selfa SMTPClientresponse'452 4.4.5 >Insufficient disk space; try again later'


Incidentally I am now the proud owner of a micro Server on EC2. Pretty
straightforward if you know your way around Linux and free for the
first year, but obviously a pretty big hurdle if you "just" want to
get your seaside app out there.

Thanks again for all your help everybody.

Mark


On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Francois Stephany
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 03/08/12 05:51, Nick Ager wrote:
>>
>> It's a real shame if there isn't a site available where we can demo
>> projects.
>>
>
> You can try Smallharbour. Its goal was to replace Seasidehosting.
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
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