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How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

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Marcus Denker-4

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Even in Dolphin's earliest docs

Sometimes I wonder if you are able (physically) to write a mail that does not contain the word "Dolphin"

(sorry...)

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Benoit St-Jean

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

I'm sure he is but Dolphin being a great environment, I don't mind when people remind (or inform) others of great ideas in other Smalltalk environments... As a Smalltalker, I don't mind seeing references to VAST, VW, ObjectStudion or even VSE here when something great/elegant/clever can be learned/imported/inspired from those...

And yes, I am also a Dolphin user (as well as VW and VAST) ...

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:16:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Even in Dolphin's earliest docs

Sometimes I wonder if you are able (physically) to write a mail that does not contain the word "Dolphin"

(sorry...)

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Check the archives - there are many examples that will make you happy. But it is a VERY good system (sadly, tied to Windows) and was built with the benefit of hindsights that did not exist in the late 1970s. We would do well to learn from it.

Did you read what I said below that?

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Marcus Denker [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Even in Dolphin's earliest docs

Sometimes I wonder if you are able (physically) to write a mail that does not contain the word "Dolphin"

(sorry...)

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Marcus Denker-4

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:

> I'm sure he is but Dolphin being a great environment, I don't mind when people remind (or inform) others of great ideas in other Smalltalk environments... As a Smalltalker, I don't mind seeing references to VAST, VW, ObjectStudion or even VSE here when something great/elegant/clever can be learned/imported/inspired from those...
>

But in *every* email?

This is like when you switch job and in *every* conversation you say "But in my old company we did X". So What?
Or even when you are in another country to remind everyone that "in $MyHomeCountry this is better". Yes, even
if you are right, after the 49th time it gets idiotic. Especially, if it's just *talk* and not *do*.

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Benoit St-Jean

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

You can get annoyed by those references but, in that case :

1) no need to be rude

2) just skip his posts when you see his name

Did I miss something here (the Third World War between you 2), an argument or something? What does this kind of reaction bring to the mailing list ? Anything positive out of your comments ?

gentlement, let's keep it cool and friendly here please!

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]; Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:29:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote:

> I'm sure he is but Dolphin being a great environment, I don't mind when people remind (or inform) others of great ideas in other Smalltalk environments... As a Smalltalker, I don't mind seeing references to VAST, VW, ObjectStudion or even VSE here when something great/elegant/clever can be learned/imported/inspired from those...
>

But in *every* email?

This is like when you switch job and in *every* conversation you say "But in my old company we did X". So What?
Or even when you are in another country to remind everyone that "in $MyHomeCountry this is better". Yes, even
if you are right, after the 49th time it gets idiotic. Especially, if it's just *talk* and not *do*.

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

In reply to this post by Benoit St-Jean

I never really got pulled into VW, for various reasons. It too has much to teach us.

Back on track, I want to emphasize my assertion that we are not making enough use of Mutex. I can't help seeing #forMutualExclusion as something that has quirks that are "fixed" by Mutex. Even systems that will remain nameless<g> use #forMutualExclusion for more than simply implementing Mutex, but Mutex seems to be the preferred synchronization object when critical sections are needed.

Bill

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Benoit St-Jean [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

And yes, I am also a Dolphin user (as well as VW and VAST) ...

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

From: Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:16:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Even in Dolphin's earliest docs

Sometimes I wonder if you are able (physically) to write a mail that does not contain the word "Dolphin"

(sorry...)

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

On Dec 8, 2011, at 11:49 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote:

> Trying to recover the image was not important for me but for pharo. I just liked to participate in solving a problem that is hard to debug.

Thanks!

Stef

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

Administrator

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

Norbert Hartl wrote

Trying to recover the image was not important for me but for pharo. I just liked to participate in solving a problem that is hard to debug.

Right on, Norbert!! Thank you for doing that. This already happened to me twice and it is a difficult and important problem for us.

Sean

Cheers,
Sean

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.

Are you also using background image saves for persistence?

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Sean P. DeNigris [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 10:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

Norbert Hartl wrote
>
> Trying to recover the image was not important for me but for pharo. I just
> liked to participate in solving a problem that is hard to debug.
>
Right on, Norbert!! Thank you for doing that. This already happened to me
twice and it is a difficult and important problem for us.

Sean

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/How-to-resurrect-an-unrepsonsive-image-tp4168518p4177099.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On 09.12.2011 16:59, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.
For the semaphore in question here, there is no recursion going on in
any of the critical sections.
So the answer to that would be absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
Henry

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

Ok, but I have never failed to be impressed by how much trouble even green threads can cause. Meaning no disrespect, if I had a repeatable failure scenario, I would make the switch to a mutex just in case. If for no other reason, Semaphore>>critical: makes assumptions about what is and is not interruptible. I don't have to so much as play dumb here (it comes naturally at the vm level), but I can't help wondering about the validity of the assumptions, the correctness of the code, and all the more so given our move to Cog.

Is there a reason *not* to use Mutex in such situations? We have multiple users telling us there is a problem.

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Henrik Sperre Johansen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 1:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On 09.12.2011 16:59, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.
For the semaphore in question here, there is no recursion going on in
any of the critical sections.
So the answer to that would be absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
Henry

Levente Uzonyi-2

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Ok, but I have never failed to be impressed by how much trouble even green threads can cause. Meaning no disrespect, if I had a repeatable failure scenario, I would make the switch to a mutex just in case. If for no other reason, Semaphore>>critical: makes assumptions about what is and is not interruptible. I don't have to so much as play dumb here (it comes naturally at the vm level), but I can't help wondering about the validity of the assumptions, the correctness of the code, and all the more so given our move to Cog.

Is there a reason *not* to use Mutex in such situations? We have multiple users telling us there is a problem.

Mutex is broken, so you better not use it. :)

Levente

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Henrik Sperre Johansen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 1:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On 09.12.2011 16:59, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.
For the semaphore in question here, there is no recursion going on in
any of the critical sections.
So the answer to that would be absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
Henry
>

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

Ok, but I have never failed to be impressed by how much trouble even green threads can cause. Meaning no disrespect, if I had a repeatable failure scenario, I would make the switch to a mutex just in case. If for no other reason, Semaphore>>critical: makes assumptions about what is and is not interruptible. I don't have to so much as play dumb here (it comes naturally at the vm level), but I can't help wondering about the validity of the assumptions, the correctness of the code, and all the more so given our move to Cog.

Is there a reason *not* to use Mutex in such situations? We have multiple users telling us there is a problem.

Mutex is broken, so you better not use it. :)

Why? where? what should I use instead?

Levente

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Henrik Sperre Johansen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 1:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On 09.12.2011 16:59, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.

For the semaphore in question here, there is no recursion going on in
any of the critical sections.
So the answer to that would be absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
Henry

--
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Levente Uzonyi-2

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>>
>> Ok, but I have never failed to be impressed by how much trouble even
>>> green threads can cause. Meaning no disrespect, if I had a repeatable
>>> failure scenario, I would make the switch to a mutex just in case. If for
>>> no other reason, Semaphore>>critical: makes assumptions about what is and
>>> is not interruptible. I don't have to so much as play dumb here (it comes
>>> naturally at the vm level), but I can't help wondering about the validity
>>> of the assumptions, the correctness of the code, and all the more so given
>>> our move to Cog.
>>>
>>
>> Is there a reason *not* to use Mutex in such situations? We have multiple
>> users telling us there is a problem.
>>
>> Mutex is broken, so you better not use it. :)
>>
>>
> Why? where? what should I use instead?

It's semaphore can get more than one signal somehow. Details here:
http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6830 . I have no answer for your third
question. :)

Levente

>
>
>>
>> Levente
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**__________
>> From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.**gforge.inria.fr<[hidden email]>[
>> pharo-project-bounces@lists.**gforge.inria.fr<[hidden email]>]
>> on behalf of Henrik Sperre Johansen [[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 1:33 PM
>> To: [hidden email].**inria.fr<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?
>>
>> On 09.12.2011 16:59, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>>
>>> I would be very curious about what happens if you replace the
>>> socket-related mutual exclusion semaphores with mutexes.
>>>
>> For the semaphore in question here, there is no recursion going on in
>> any of the critical sections.
>> So the answer to that would be absolutely nothing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Henry
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mariano
> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

thanks levente (since 2007) there is this bug…
may be igor and you should join effort on it.

>>>> Why? where? what should I use instead?
>
> It's semaphore can get more than one signal somehow. Details here: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6830 . I have no answer for your third question. :)

Is Mutex also dealing with reentrant calls?

Stef

Levente Uzonyi-2

Re: How to resurrect an unrepsonsive image?

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> thanks levente (since 2007) there is this bug?

Yes. :)

> may be igor and you should join effort on it.

I tried to track it down a year ago without luck. IIRC the Transcript
usage in the script doesn't affect the results and the timeouts can also
be reduced by a factor of 10.

>
>>>>> Why? where? what should I use instead?
>>
>> It's semaphore can get more than one signal somehow. Details here: http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6830 . I have no answer for your third question. :)
>
> Is Mutex also dealing with reentrant calls?

If you mean entering it's critical section by the same process more than
once, then yes.

Levente

>
>
> Stef
>

Benoit St-Jean

Pharo friendly code & repositories

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I've worked with Pharo and I was wondering if Pharo has some kind of "official" repository for code that has been ported to Pharo (from Squeak or any other Smalltalk platform in fact).

If I have fixes for, let's say, the ODBC "package", where should I put it ? Do we have a Pharo-only repository ? If I should work on fixes, from which repository should I get the "base" version ? And where should I commit my changes/fixes ?

squeaksource.com (original SqueakSource)

http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss (SqueakSource 3)

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/

Any other repository I could have missed ?

tia

-----------------
Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
(Albert Einstein)

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Pharo friendly code & repositories

thanks for this question.
I think that we should really move to SmalltalkHub.
SmalltalkHub will have soon projects and

> Hello everyone,
>
> It's been a while since I've worked with Pharo and I was wondering if Pharo has some kind of "official" repository for code that has been ported to Pharo (from Squeak or any other Smalltalk platform in fact).
>
> If I have fixes for, let's say, the ODBC "package", where should I put it ?
if the owner of the project accept fixes it would be good that the fixes are placed close to the code.

> Do we have a Pharo-only repository ? If I should work on fixes, from which repository should I get the "base" version ? And where should I commit my changes/fixes ?

with smalltalkhub every project has an inbox. so this is the natural place.

> squeaksource.com (original SqueakSource)
> http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss (SqueakSource 3)
> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/
>
> Any other repository I could have missed ?

We should really migrate soon but before doing that I want smalltalkHub to be replicated and
accept that it will break down :)
Tomorrow morning we have a discussion about network and that question is part of the questions I have.

>
> tia
>
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoit St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> (Albert Einstein)