I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

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I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Xinyu Liu
Hi,

I am a programmer come from China. From a friend I got to know about squeakland.
I think it is really a great thing. It can help kids in all ages learn something while playing.
However, when I search squeakland materials in Chinese by Google, I found that there
is little Chinese information about it, nor a Chinese community.

So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.

the translated Chinese pages are here:
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland   main page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.kids.home  kids play page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.plugin.download  download page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.school.home  school staff page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.community.home community page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeak  squeak introduce page

Best regards.

Yours,
Liu

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Yoshiki Ohshima
  Hello, Xinyu,

> I am a programmer come from China. From a friend I got to know about squeakland.
> I think it is really a great thing. It can help kids in all ages learn something while playing.
> However, when I search squeakland materials in Chinese by Google, I found that there
> is little Chinese information about it, nor a Chinese community.
>
> So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
> I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
> and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
> use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
> to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.

  That sounds great!

  There is a fairly well translated site in Japanese with original
content plus Japanese oriented news:

http://www.squeakland.jp/

I'm not at the position of giving the permission, but there is a
preceding example, so it should be ok.

  Squeak is "multilingualized" and there are successfully deployed
versions for Japanese and Korean.  (I happen to be the person who did
it.)  Supporting Chinese is straightforward but I haven't get around
doing it.  (Even there have been a few requests in the past from
Chinese speaking people already.  Sorry for my laziness.)

> the translated Chinese pages are here:
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland   main page
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.kids.home  kids play page
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.plugin.download  download page
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.school.home  school staff page
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.community.home community page
> http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeak  squeak introduce page

  Looks good (though I can't really tell^^;)  Keep up with good work!

-- Yoshiki
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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi all,

Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:

>  Hello, Xinyu,
>  
>
[...]

>>So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
>>I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
>>and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
>>use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
>>to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.
>>    
>>
>
>  That sounds great!
>
>  There is a fairly well translated site in Japanese with original
>content plus Japanese oriented news:
>
>http://www.squeakland.jp/
>
>I'm not at the position of giving the permission, but there is a
>preceding example, so it should be ok.
>
>  Squeak is "multilingualized" and there are successfully deployed
>versions for Japanese and Korean.  (I happen to be the person who did
>it.)  Supporting Chinese is straightforward but I haven't get around
>doing it.  (Even there have been a few requests in the past from
>Chinese speaking people already.  Sorry for my laziness.)
>
>  
>
We're also working with Squeak with my students here in Colombia. I dont
know much about college/university students using Squeak in Latin
America (only with childs in Extremadura, Spain), in fact we have just
started. All the contents we're making are a product of the learners
network and are under a Free Content License (CC-By-SA). I think that
we're now not only needing Free Software, but also Free Contents,
because knowledge is changed when is used, so its natural path.

The difference between our wiki and the smallland wiki is that contents
are product of the Work with the students, instead of a more informal
users/devs networks, but would be nice to stablish links between two
collectives. As I said, we're just starting, but any help is welcome:

www.eduwiki.info:9090/IntroduccionInformatica/Squeak

Cheers,

Offray

--
        El Directorio
------------------------------      
      .:| Tecnología |:.
.:| Comunidad  |  Libertad |:.  
        \| Colombia |/
------------------------------
   www.el-directorio.org

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Kim Rose
In reply to this post by Xinyu Liu
Re: [Squeakland] I want to introduce squeakland to my Chin
Dear Liu,

Thank you for your wonderful efforts and introducing yourself and this work to the Squeakland community!  Your efforts should be of great value to many, many children and adults, so we thank you. 

On behalf of Viewpoints Research, please accept our permission to use images and links from our website pages to create your Chinese translation.

I hope you have seen the "Squeakers" DVD which has Chinese subtitles -- if you do not have a copy, please let me know where I can send one to you.

I don't know if you are able to travel (easily) outside of China, but many of us will gather in Chicago, Illinois for "SqueakFest '06" this summer -- it would be wonderful to meet you -- here is more info on SqueakFest : http://interactive.colum.edu/partners/squeakfest/

Please feel free to continue to correspond with me directly, should you need more information about Viewpoints Research,  or materials posted on the Squeakland site. 

In addition, I know the greater Squeakland communityand readers of this mailing list  will be interested in your efforts, to learn more about Squeak's spread into China and its use and practices.

Thank you again and welcome to the Squeakland community.
best regards,
Kim Rose



At 10:33 PM +0800 4/6/06, Xinyu Liu wrote:
Hi,

I am a programmer come from China. From a friend I got to know about squeakland.
I think it is really a great thing. It can help kids in all ages learn something while playing.
However, when I search squeakland materials in Chinese by Google, I found that there
is little Chinese information about it, nor a Chinese community.

So, I decide to translate some basic background of squeakland to Chinese language.
I just tried a couple of pages in www.squeakland.org. But I used some images, pictures,
and links from www.squeakland.org. Is it OK? Can you give me a permission that I can
use them? I just want to continue this work, to try my personnal best to introduce squeak
to China, to let more and more chinese people know about it.

the translated Chinese pages are here:
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland   main page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.kids.home  kids play page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.plugin.download  download page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.school.home  school staff page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeakland.community.home community page
http://liuxinyu95.googlepages.com/squeak  squeak introduce page

Best regards.

Yours,
Liu

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[hidden email]
http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Xinyu Liu
In reply to this post by Xinyu Liu
Dear Rose, Ohshima, Luna,

Thank you! thanks for the greate community supporting. I'll try my best to continue this work.
I believe with squeak spreading in China, there will be more and more Chinese people join us. A  team can  do much more than an individual, so we hava a greate tomorrow!

To Rose,
Thank you and Viewpoint Research! I'll try to make the Chinese translating pages consist with the original sources, both contents and style.

I watched some clips of "Squeaders" documentary film from www.squeakland.org. It's very wonderful. However, I doesn't find the DVD sold in China store. I'll ask my friends to help me seeking it in Japan, our neighbourhood country.

To Ohsima,
I read your HP both in squeak pages and in T.I.Tech. You did not only port Squeak to many PDAs, but also help to develop the multilingualized Squeak. I happen to spend 2 years in T.I.Tech and know Janpanese language. So, I am very interesting in building a Chinese version Squeak. I believe I can learn a lot from you.

Best regards.

Yours,
Liu

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Kim Rose
Re: [Squeakland] I want to introduce squeakland to my Chin
Dear Liu,

Regarding the "Squeakers" DVD -- you can find it distributed through Japan here:
http://www.squeakland.org/sqmedia/movies/order.html
The DVD is not sold in stores in any country -- only online.  We would be happy to send you one at no cost if you provide a mailing address, but perhaps it is easier to obtain via Japan for you.

I believe your knowledge of Japanese will be very useful as our colleagues in Japan have done so much to improve Squeak, create projects for children, conduct workshops, etc.

By the way, several of us from Viewpoints travel to Japan two or three times a year...perhaps at some point we can meet you there.  Our next trip is planned for June.

regards,
Kim



At 9:47 PM +0800 4/8/06, Xinyu Liu wrote:
Dear Rose, Ohshima, Luna,

Thank you! thanks for the greate community supporting. I'll try my best to continue this work.
I believe with squeak spreading in China, there will be more and more Chinese people join us. A  team can  do much more than an individual, so we hava a greate tomorrow!

To Rose,
Thank you and Viewpoint Research! I'll try to make the Chinese translating pages consist with the original sources, both contents and style.

I watched some clips of "Squeaders" documentary film from www.squeakland.org. It's very wonderful. However, I doesn't find the DVD sold in China store. I'll ask my friends to help me seeking it in Japan, our neighbourhood country.

To Ohsima,
I read your HP both in squeak pages and in T.I.Tech. You did not only port Squeak to many PDAs, but also help to develop the multilingualized Squeak. I happen to spend 2 years in T.I.Tech and know Janpanese language. So, I am very interesting in building a Chinese version Squeak. I believe I can learn a lot from you.

Best regards.

Yours,
Liu


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Jim Ford-2
Kim Rose wrote:

> The DVD is not sold in stores in any country -- only online.  We would
> be happy to send you one at no cost if you provide a mailing address,
> but perhaps it is easier to obtain via Japan for you.

Would it be practical to make the DVD available as a bittorrent? I
wouldn't mind seeding it indefinately for downloaders.

Whilst I'm very interested in Squeak, the school where I work (as a
Science Technician)  is basically indifferent to anything not Microsoft.
I'm particularly excited in the idea of it being introduced to China.
Now, where are our Indian friends?

Jim Ford

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Alan Kay
Hi Jim --

Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.

Cheers,

Alan

--------------

At 02:25 AM 4/9/2006, Jim Ford wrote:

>Kim Rose wrote:
>
> > The DVD is not sold in stores in any country -- only online.  We would
> > be happy to send you one at no cost if you provide a mailing address,
> > but perhaps it is easier to obtain via Japan for you.
>
>Would it be practical to make the DVD available as a bittorrent? I
>wouldn't mind seeding it indefinately for downloaders.
>
>Whilst I'm very interested in Squeak, the school where I work (as a
>Science Technician)  is basically indifferent to anything not Microsoft.
>I'm particularly excited in the idea of it being introduced to China.
>Now, where are our Indian friends?
>
>Jim Ford
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Jim Ford-2
Alan Kay wrote:

> Hi Jim --
>
> Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.

Hi Alan.

What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
tables'. It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
and supermarkets being built in their places!

Jim Ford
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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Alan Kay
Oh,.... well, we have the same problem in the US at very deep levels ....

Cheers,

Alan

-------------

.At 08:12 AM 4/9/2006, Jim Ford wrote:

>Alan Kay wrote:
>
>>Hi Jim --
>>
>>Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>
>Hi Alan.
>
>What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>tables'. It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down and
>supermarkets being built in their places!
>
>Jim Ford


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Yoshiki Ohshima
In reply to this post by Xinyu Liu
  Hello, Xinyu,

> To Ohsima,
> I read your HP both in squeak pages and in T.I.Tech. You did not only port Squeak to many PDAs, but also help to develop
> the multilingualized Squeak. I happen to spend 2 years in T.I.Tech and know Janpanese language. So, I am very
> interesting in building a Chinese version Squeak. I believe I can
> learn a lot from you.

  Wow.  That is surprising (good) news.  Supporting Chinese is high
priority task for me, but I have higher ones^^;  Hope I can soon get
back to you on this!

-- Yoshiki
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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Milan Zimmermann-2
In reply to this post by Jim Ford-2
On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:

> Alan Kay wrote:
> > Hi Jim --
> >
> > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>
> Hi Alan.
>
> What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
> need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
> secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
> curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
> tables'.

>From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada, Ontario
as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system simply
does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in that
format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).

It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach them MS
Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and they wil
be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
database for the boss ... or something like that :(".

BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
tried to explain).

Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes seem
to be suffering the most.

Milan

> It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> and supermarkets being built in their places!
>
> Jim Ford
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Alan Kay
Hi Milan --

Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with computing.

The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
what these are and why they are important.

I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
(I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
(the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
testing for this, just as with DE-computing.

Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
better.

So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).

Cheers

Alan

---------------

At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:

>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
> > Alan Kay wrote:
> > > Hi Jim --
> > >
> > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
> >
> > Hi Alan.
> >
> > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
> > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
> > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
> > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
> > tables'.
>
> >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
> Ontario
>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system simply
>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in that
>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>
>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach them MS
>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and they wil
>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>
>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>tried to explain).
>
>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes seem
>to be suffering the most.
>
>Milan
>
> > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> > and supermarkets being built in their places!
> >
> > Jim Ford
> > _______________________________________________
> > Squeakland mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Robert Parks
Is anyone in the Squeak community developing tools for language
literacy.  I have developed a children's dictionary
(http://www.wordsmyth.net) and am working on an early literacy
dictionary.  In particular, I'm interested in the intersection of
tools for programming with variants of controlled English, and tools
for teaching reading and writing.  Teaching the "debugging of
thinking" would be easier if we started with the core tool -
language.  I'm reminded of one of the first Apple II programs for
children - Rocky's boots.  It involved creation of a logic circuit
for distinguishing shapes and colors. Too bad it wasn't developed
further to find other areas for applying core logical concepts in the
context of analogical reasoning.
Bob

>Hi Milan --
>
>Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
>computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
>manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
>parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with computing.
>
>The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
>espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
>and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
>what these are and why they are important.
>
>I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
>time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
>(I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
>with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
>reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
>(the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
>testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>
>Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
>others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
>This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
>r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
>better.
>
>So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
>thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
>represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>
>Cheers
>
>Alan
>
>---------------
>
>At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
>>  > Alan Kay wrote:
>>  > > Hi Jim --
>>  > >
>>  > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>>  >
>>  > Hi Alan.
>>  >
>>  > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>>  > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>>  > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>>  > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>>  > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>>  > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>>  > tables'.
>>
>>  >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
>>  Ontario
>>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system simply
>>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in that
>>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>  >
>>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach them MS
>>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and they wil
>>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>>
>>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>>tried to explain).
>>
>>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes seem
>>to be suffering the most.
>>
>>Milan
>>
>>  > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>>  > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>>  > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
>>  > and supermarkets being built in their places!
>>  >
>>  > Jim Ford
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > Squeakland mailing list
>>  > [hidden email]
>>  > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Squeakland mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Alan Kay
Hi Bob --

At 08:38 AM 4/23/2006, Robert Parks wrote:
>Is anyone in the Squeak community developing tools for language literacy.

We should be. One of the more interesting and early attempts at this was an
Apple II program designed by Chris Cerf (son of Bennett, working with
Sesame Street at the time). It was a sentence maker for young children and
each sentence was then carried out by animated figures. We thought a little
about this when we designed the scripting language for Etoys, but never got
around to making the very young child's version. This has come up again wrt
to the 100$ laptop (where it would be a very useful part of "scripting as
math".

>   I have developed a children's dictionary (http://www.wordsmyth.net) and
> am working on an early literacy dictionary.  In particular, I'm
> interested in the intersection of tools for programming with variants of
> controlled English, and tools for teaching reading and writing.

Any good sources for "controlled English for children"?

>  Teaching the "debugging of thinking" would be easier if we started with
> the core tool - language.

More like vice versa. Human language is wrapped in metaphor and allegory,
and it has been shown that most people have as little sense of how
imprecise they are in language as they do of what grammatical components
they are using. One of the reasons math notation moved away from attempts
at careful use of language (for a good example of the "before" see Newton's
Principia which is pre-algebraic) was that the way meaning has to be
inferred from math is quite different that ordinary use of language.
Scripting is somewhere in between. Many people tried to use Hypertalk in an
imprecise way (like their normal use of language), but there was some
anecdotal evidence that they learned to get more precise in both Hypertalk
and normal language as they did more scripting.

>   I'm reminded of one of the first Apple II programs for children -
> Rocky's boots.

One of my favorites of all time.

>   It involved creation of a logic circuit for distinguishing shapes and
> colors. Too bad it wasn't developed further to find other areas for
> applying core logical concepts in the context of analogical reasoning.

Actually it was, in it's follow on "Robot Odyssey".

More is needed here.

Cheers,

Alan

>Bob
>
>>Hi Milan --
>>
>>Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
>>computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
>>manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
>>parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with computing.
>>
>>The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
>>espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
>>and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
>>what these are and why they are important.
>>
>>I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
>>time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
>>(I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
>>with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
>>reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
>>(the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
>>testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>>
>>Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
>>others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
>>This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
>>r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
>>better.
>>
>>So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
>>thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
>>represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>---------------
>>
>>At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>>On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
>>>  > Alan Kay wrote:
>>>  > > Hi Jim --
>>>  > >
>>>  > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
>>>  >
>>>  > Hi Alan.
>>>  >
>>>  > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
>>>  > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
>>>  > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine a
>>>  > need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in U.K.
>>>  > secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to 'deliver the
>>>  > curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published exam 'league
>>>  > tables'.
>>>
>>>  >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
>>>  Ontario
>>>as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program is
>>>quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
>>>business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking and
>>>probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of MS
>>>Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due to the
>>>fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on buying
>>>StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school system
>>>simply
>>>does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO would be a big
>>>step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can eventually save in
>>>that
>>>format (notion of which escapes many of our professional developer
>>>colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked to be aware).
>>  >
>>>It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
>>>think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent who's
>>>child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you teach
>>>them MS
>>>Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their job, and
>>>they wil
>>>be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily create an Access
>>>database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
>>>
>>>BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
>>>friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as well,
>>>so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one of the
>>>teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using Squeak but
>>>did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was (altough I
>>>tried to explain).
>>>
>>>Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with more
>>>pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on creativity
>>>is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and science classes
>>>seem
>>>to be suffering the most.
>>>
>>>Milan
>>>
>>>  > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
>>>  > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
>>>  > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
>>>  > and supermarkets being built in their places!
>>>  >
>>>  > Jim Ford
>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>  > Squeakland mailing list
>>>  > [hidden email]
>>>  > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Squeakland mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Squeakland mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland


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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Milan Zimmermann-2
In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Hi Alan,

Perhaps part of the difficullty to introduce s-comp in schools lies right at
the computing industry doorstep - the prevalence of HTTP protocol,
HTML/JSP/otherSP manufacturing, seems to show the industry is stuck deeply in
"driver's ed" view and do not exactly show that the industry has the mental
capacity to invest in creating something better, so it seems hard to ask any
better of education. Maybe the "driver's ed-comp education" just follows what
"driver's ed-comp industry" is asking for...

However, as you said (if I understood correctly), the best path may be to take
a new cross-field approach "science and math by computation" that would not
threaten the established, and provide fun, experimental approach, and help
developing creativity, show building process rather than result, and hands on
deep understanding in all three.

I am not a teacher or educator, but I think in all this one has to remember
the importance of personal example and motivation some teachers provide
(although it must be very hard if teachers are to be judged only by immediate
results of their students following a predefined curriculum). My physics
teacher in grade 7 and 8 and math teacher in grade 9 provided me with more
motivation than any teacher after that, but it was not "measurable" that year
(although, looking back, to some degree it was). Thanks for your comments,

Milan


On 2006 April 23 06:09, Alan Kay wrote:

> Hi Milan --
>
> Yes, what you describe is what I've called the "driver's ed" (DE) view of
> computing -- and this goes back at least as far as the "Nation At Risk"
> manifesto in (I think) 1983. It's the simplest way for school people and
> parents to feel they are doing something modern and relevant with
> computing.
>
> The kind of computing that Seymour and (a few years later) I have been
> espousing since the 60s is in the same epistemological camp as real math
> and real science -- and most school people and parents don't understand
> what these are and why they are important.
>
> I think people who are interested in Seymour's insights will have a simpler
> time if they just lump real math, real science and "Seymour Computing"
> (I'll call this s-comp) into one composite subject that is not associated
> with DE-computing. My generic term for this would be "real science" -- the
> reason for this is that "school math" has been aimed at simple arithmetic
> (the "driver's ed" of math) and there are now huge schooling standards and
> testing for this, just as with DE-computing.
>
> Science is a little more vague for most people (and a little scary for
> others) so there is much less force behind standards and testing right now.
> This allows much more of the real stuff to be done (and combined with
> r-math and s-comp) if we could get parents and teachers to understand it
> better.
>
> So I would advise focusing on r-science as a way to help teach children
> thinking (and debugging of thinking) and powerful ideas and ways to
> represent them (including r-math and its sibling s-comp).
>
> Cheers
>
> Alan
>
> ---------------
>
> At 06:29 PM 4/22/2006, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
> >On 2006 April 9 11:12, Jim Ford wrote:
> > > Alan Kay wrote:
> > > > Hi Jim --
> > > >
> > > > Squeak runs exactly the same on more than 25 platforms, including MS.
> > >
> > > Hi Alan.
> > >
> > > What I actually meant was MS apps. - Word, Excel, Powerpoint and I.E..
> > > Most members of staff are scarcely aware that anything else exists, and
> > > have so little understanding of computers that they can't even imagine
> > > a need for anything else. I don't think this attitude is uncommon in
> > > U.K. secondary schools and is largely due to schools needing to
> > > 'deliver the curriculum', and pressure to perform well in published
> > > exam 'league tables'.
> > >
> > >From my limited observation, this is similar what we have in Canada,
> >
> > Ontario
> >as well. My daughters are in grade 9, and while the high school's program
> > is quite involved in computer-related classes (there are various forms of
> > business classes, accounting, publishing, "computer science", networking
> > and probably more), it is all centered around learning MS Office, sort of
> > MS Office training for the kid's first job. This is even more ironic due
> > to the fact that the Ontario government spent good millions of dollars on
> > buying StarOffice, (and of course everyone can install OO), the school
> > system simply does not seem to use it at all in the courses. Not that OO
> > would be a big step up from MS Office, but the rest of the world can
> > eventually save in that format (notion of which escapes many of our
> > professional developer colleagues, so why should school teachers be asked
> > to be aware).
> >
> >It is as if high school education would be a caterer to business. I do not
> >think it is the teachers' fault, I am imagining a reaction of a parent
> > who's child is being taught something like OO instead: "Why don't you
> > teach them MS Office, .net or Java, they will not use this stuff in their
> > job, and they wil be able to get $XYZ an hour doing Java .. or happily
> > create an Access database for the boss ... or something like that :(".
> >
> >BTW, for computer science class in the high school, it is Java and VB. A
> >friend of ours kids go to school in Vienna and they teach them Java as
> > well, so I suppose the ordeal is world - wide. Last year I wrote to one
> > of the teachers suggesting to volunteer a extra-curriculum class using
> > Squeak but did not get an answer, I suppose they did not know what it was
> > (altough I tried to explain).
> >
> >Also, on your note about 'delivering a curriculum', it seems that with
> > more pressure to "standardize" and "measure", any interest to focus on
> > creativity is disappearing, what is interesting is that it math and
> > science classes seem to be suffering the most.
> >
> >Milan
> >
> > > It probably also helps explain why the U.K. continues to slide
> > > into seedy decline! If  Britain wasn't a 'nation of shopkeepers' in
> > > Napoleon's day, then it certainly is now - factories being pulled down
> > > and supermarkets being built in their places!
> > >
> > > Jim Ford
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Squeakland mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Squeakland mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Yoshiki Ohshima
In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
  Hello,

  I finally got around to do the Chinese support.  Kelvin Chang
informed me (5 months ago, actually) the bitmap fonts for Simplified
Chinese and I hacked the Squeak code a little to support it.  I spent
two hours or so and this is where I am.

  The metric for some punctuation characters doesn't look
right... That is the way the metric is specified for these characters.
I wonder if I should hand-modify them or not...

  I'll look into the text input as well and hopefully have something
testable by the weekend.

-- Yoshiki

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Re: I want to introduce squeakland to my Chinese friends

Xinyu Liu
Thank you very much! Yoshiki.

It's great. I tried your works. It can read from a file containes
Chinese text and show them right.

On 5/11/06, Yoshiki Ohshima <[hidden email]> wrote:
  Hello,

  I finally got around to do the Chinese support.  Kelvin Chang
informed me (5 months ago, actually) the bitmap fonts for Simplified
Chinese and I hacked the Squeak code a little to support it.  I spent
two hours or so and this is where I am.

  The metric for some punctuation characters doesn't look
right... That is the way the metric is specified for these characters.
I wonder if I should hand-modify them or not...

  I'll look into the text input as well and hopefully have something
testable by the weekend.

-- Yoshiki


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