Introduction
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Hi all,
I'm Hernan Wilkinson, founder of 10Pines, FAST and Professor of the University of Buenos Aires. At 10Pines we teach and coach about OO, TDD and Agile techniques and also apply those principles developing software. We have customers in Argentina (where we are located), USA and Europe. We mainly develop Web apss & mobile apps (iphone&android). Most of the apps are/were written in Ruby and Java (sadly :-) ). We have some Smalltalk apps developed with Pharo, like Patagonia and the Satellite Console app to control nano satellites developed by satellogic.com. We are currently developing a small web app to control document's flow inside a company (3 months/1 person).
Besides 10Pines, I teach OOP and OOD at the UBA, two subjects that are really valued inside the university. We use Smalltalk as language and Pharo as its implementation. Theses classes are one of the main sources of "new blood" to smalltalk (around 40 students per semester) in Argentina (there are also other universities that use smalltalk too like UTN, UNQ, etc).
I'm also member of FAST, the foundation that organizes the Smalltalk conference in Argentina called Smalltalks. My first contact with Smalltalk was in 1995 in the subjects I teach now :-). Since then I developed many apps but the main work I did with Smalltalk was at Mercap while working as Developer Manager, where we developed a Financial App that covers almost all type of financial instruments, from equities, fixed income to derivatives. It has been sold in different countries and companies. It was and it is developed with VisualAge and GemStone. It currently has around 27K tests that run in aprox. 7 minutes :-). They are migrating the UI from a desktop one to UI using SeaSide and the many javascript libs.
Anyway... go smalltalk! and pharo :-) Hernan. Hernán Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching Phone: +54 - 011 - 6091 - 3125
Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: [hidden email] site: http://www.10Pines.com Address: Alem 693, Floor 5 B, Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Hernan
I imagine that you are body selling so you do what your clients want. Now what I would like to understand is what is missing in our stack to support bootstrapping your own business? Stef On 09 Mar 2014, at 22:59, Hernan Wilkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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On Mar 12, 2014, at 4:01 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: Now what I would like to understand is what is missing in our stack to support bootstrapping your own business? That’s an awesome question Stef. Not sure if can be answered really (because of innovation and business diversity). But we can have a conversation about it The general part: What can be done is to use tech to open doors to possibilities that connect with people that you wouldn’t connect otherwise. The telephone did it, the fax did it and social networks have been doing that. Boils down to questions like.. Who will smile when X gets done? to get X done we need Y and Z working smoothly and productively, do we have that? Invariants: - business needs to expand - business needs to communicate with audiences - business needs to keep people happy about something - business needs cashflow Corollary: if in doubt, create new possibilities to make new exciting arctifacts and show them to get feedback to measure results and reflect on The specific part: Lets thing about how we are about the basics: Design Thinking and Lean Startup, everybody using it and more and more people every day. Huge ideas, huge trends, huge opportunities. Design Thinking ends up with ideation (to create innovation) and ends (its final step for 1 iteration) with prototyping. The firsts prototypes are very low-res, ultra cheap, prototypes to get feedback before moving on. In the next iteration you need to make better prototypes so at some point rapid development tools are the best thing. Whatever you can do to help on that will put engineers in the design team in an advantage there. Lean Startup, the first thing you need is an MVP to get validation (measurable feedback about the real value of your business idea). If you are on to something, you need to start selling right away. - Web - Social integration - Payments processing API’s - Persistence - Graphics - Mobile - html5 - Native - Cross platform - something that would appeal artists? game artists? filmmakers? 3D printing? robotics? What else would you add to help spread your stuff? What could go really big and be powered by Pharo/Smalltalk? Please is important that you contribute with your ideas _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi Stef, the main problem I face is not a matter of libraries but something we talk many times, people prefer to use other technology/languages because smalltalk/pharo is not hot/mainstream, it is difficult to convince people to use smalltalk basically because they see it as "old" with a weird "syntax", different set of tools than other languages, etc. But don't get me wrong, I would not change that in Smalltak, it is what makes Smalltalk unique and what it is.
Going to libraries, it depends on the architecture where I want to use Pharo. I don't see pharo as a good solution to build a desktop app because its "window" library (morph/spec/etc) is not good enough, difficult to use, etc. The lack of a UI Builder is a problem and the lack of integration with the OS window solution is sometimes a problem (different look and feel, etc). As programmer I don't care, for me pharo is great, it allows me to program my ideas, solutions, etc. but it is not the same if the user is a final user. I don't know the status regarding database connection and OO-Relational mapping, but that is also very important (sadly) (I know squeakDBX and Glorp, but haven't use it in a long time).
In a web kind of architecture, I have doubts about pharo scalability. I don't have information about how well pharo would scale as "web server", you know that it is not the same as a desktop app. I would like to see some info about that, comparing with other techs like ruby, python, php, java, etc. Seaside/Aida are great solutions to develop a web app but we don't have a framework in top of them to build web app easily, something for the "mass" kind of Rails, where the "directories", name of classes, tests, etc. are all created in a "framework" kind of fashion. Cincom tried that with WebVelocity but did not took enough speed :-). I think Magritte is not enough. And again, don't get me wrong, I don't really like that kind of solutions but for some people that don't what to know every technical detail, that just want to do their work fast with out caring about design quality, those types of frameworks are important.
And of course, the persistence is always an issue. Because of the doubts about scalability and the persistence issues, it is that when doing web apps I use pharo to develop and GemStone to deploy :-). Besides the libraries, something also important is the community and how many people uses a solution because that helps to have a measure of maturity of the solutions (it is not a direct relationship but helps)
Anyway, I don't know if I answered your question :-), I hope this help and open to continue thinking about these things. Hernan. On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hernán Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching Phone: +54 - 011 - 6091 - 3125
Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: [hidden email] site: http://www.10Pines.com Address: Alem 693, Floor 5 B, Buenos Aires, Argentina
_______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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when I browsed
I thought that could be nice company doing sexy applications with Pharo. What I want to say here is how to position itself to get the hand free. Stef On 12 Mar 2014, at 14:33, Hernan Wilkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On Mar 12, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
an idea that came to mind to share about this is the backend role for Pharo Do we have something to kick ass meteorjs? Something that could provide the MeteorJS productivity experience would be competitive, so maybe tide has something to add to this? _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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And all the community should be able to take advantage Stef
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On Mar 12, 2014, at 2:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yeah right? That’s what happens when you have what all the accelerators and VC’s and companies in the silicon valley wants (faster validation, prototyping and development tools for their hackers and future startups). This might increase context: “We want to create the universal standard for writing this kind of application, and that will only happen through broad industry cooperation,” said Meteor co-author Matt DeBergalis in a statement. “It’s clear to everyone that we need something new. Will it be Meteor? What we see today is that it is open source developers that drive the technology that is ultimately adopted everywhere else in the industry. So it depends on whether the open-source community chooses to rally around Meteor.” The round was led by Andreessen Horowitz ith participation from Matrix Partners and a few others. The question is, what the heck are a bunch of Silicon Valley fat cats doing throwing such a sizable sum at an open-source project? The project is free-as-in-beer for anyone to use; it’s also free-as-in-freedom for anyone to modify. And the group plans to make money in the time-honored way that a bunch of FOSSies make money: selling support. full story here:
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An investment does not equal revenue or profit, does not equal success, is just the beginning.
There are a large number of big projects and companies started with lots of money that went nowhere and died. There are a large number of smaller projects and business with less or no money that do well. Pharo is an enabling platform. Apart from being successful itself, i.e. being used a lot, it cannot really build its own success stories on top of itself, that has to come from others, who focus more on the business and user side than on the technology side. Are there really clear reasons why WhatsApp choose Erlang, Facebook choose PHP, Apple choose Objective-C, or did the people who started those projects and made the early decisions just liked or loved them ? Could they have used something else ? IMHO there are technical explanations that can be given, but the other factor, the like or love factor, did count as well. It is clear today that open source and open standards are winning, international internet wide communities are flourishing. Let's be the best we can, we'll always be one of the many possibilities, part of a vast ecosystem. Let's nurture, support and grow the successes that we already have. And be open for new ones, of course. I try to use Pharo commercially whenever, wherever I can, because I believe in it, because I have objective reasons to do so, but above all because I love it. Anyway, this is just my opinion. Sven On 12 Mar 2014, at 18:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2014, at 2:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > >>> >>> Do we have something to kick ass meteorjs? >> >> I’m amazed that they can raised 11 millions dollars for that. >> > > Yeah right? That’s what happens when you have what all the accelerators and VC’s and companies in the silicon valley wants (faster validation, prototyping and development tools for their hackers and future startups). This might increase context: > > “We want to create the universal standard for writing this kind of application, and that will only happen through broad industry cooperation,” said Meteor co-author Matt DeBergalis in a statement. > > “It’s clear to everyone that we need something new. Will it be Meteor? What we see today is that it is open source developers that drive the technology that is ultimately adopted everywhere else in the industry. So it depends on whether the open-source community chooses to rally around Meteor.” > > The round was led by Andreessen Horowitz ith participation from Matrix Partners and a few others. The question is, what the heck are a bunch of Silicon Valley fat cats doing throwing such a sizable sum at an open-source project? > > The project is free-as-in-beer for anyone to use; it’s also free-as-in-freedom for anyone to modify. And the group plans to make money in the time-honored way that a bunch of FOSSies make money: selling support. > > full story here: > http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/meteor-funding/ > > > > > > >>> Something that could provide the MeteorJS productivity experience would be competitive, so maybe tide has something to add to this? >> >> Yes tide is cool and we will market it really well. >> And all the community should be able to take advantage >> >> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-business mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-business mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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Thanks sven. Still with 11 millions we can do some nice frameworks :)
On 12 Mar 2014, at 20:13, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > An investment does not equal revenue or profit, does not equal success, is just the beginning. > > There are a large number of big projects and companies started with lots of money that went nowhere and died. There are a large number of smaller projects and business with less or no money that do well. > > Pharo is an enabling platform. Apart from being successful itself, i.e. being used a lot, it cannot really build its own success stories on top of itself, that has to come from others, who focus more on the business and user side than on the technology side. > > Are there really clear reasons why WhatsApp choose Erlang, Facebook choose PHP, Apple choose Objective-C, or did the people who started those projects and made the early decisions just liked or loved them ? Could they have used something else ? IMHO there are technical explanations that can be given, but the other factor, the like or love factor, did count as well. > > It is clear today that open source and open standards are winning, international internet wide communities are flourishing. Let's be the best we can, we'll always be one of the many possibilities, part of a vast ecosystem. Let's nurture, support and grow the successes that we already have. And be open for new ones, of course. > > I try to use Pharo commercially whenever, wherever I can, because I believe in it, because I have objective reasons to do so, but above all because I love it. > > Anyway, this is just my opinion. > > Sven > > On 12 Mar 2014, at 18:42, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> On Mar 12, 2014, at 2:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Do we have something to kick ass meteorjs? >>> >>> I’m amazed that they can raised 11 millions dollars for that. >>> >> >> Yeah right? That’s what happens when you have what all the accelerators and VC’s and companies in the silicon valley wants (faster validation, prototyping and development tools for their hackers and future startups). This might increase context: >> >> “We want to create the universal standard for writing this kind of application, and that will only happen through broad industry cooperation,” said Meteor co-author Matt DeBergalis in a statement. >> >> “It’s clear to everyone that we need something new. Will it be Meteor? What we see today is that it is open source developers that drive the technology that is ultimately adopted everywhere else in the industry. So it depends on whether the open-source community chooses to rally around Meteor.” >> >> The round was led by Andreessen Horowitz ith participation from Matrix Partners and a few others. The question is, what the heck are a bunch of Silicon Valley fat cats doing throwing such a sizable sum at an open-source project? >> >> The project is free-as-in-beer for anyone to use; it’s also free-as-in-freedom for anyone to modify. And the group plans to make money in the time-honored way that a bunch of FOSSies make money: selling support. >> >> full story here: >> http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/meteor-funding/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Something that could provide the MeteorJS productivity experience would be competitive, so maybe tide has something to add to this? >>> >>> Yes tide is cool and we will market it really well. >>> And all the community should be able to take advantage >>> >>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-business mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-business mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-business mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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On Mar 12, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: Thanks sven. Still with 11 millions we can do some nice frameworks :) +1 We already know quite well why we use Pharo, what could help us is not to trigger defences but to do the opposite: To expose our weaknesses safely among friends who truly wants the best for each other[1] and reflect[2] on what would be the shortest path to thrive. The MeteorJS guys obviously reversed engineer what the big cats wanted and had the connections and the momentum. Not that we have to do the same but, wouldn’t be interesting to increase our chances? yo think we don’t? I know many VCs, but I can’t talk with anyone of them about Smalltalk because I don’t have reasons to do it[3] So, can you give me some? like the Meteor guys got? That’s the kind of useful reflections we need to have (and share) [1] otherwise we wouldn’t be a community worth belonging [2] actually kind of a social reverse engineer to find out where people wants to pay attention to (and money follows attention) [3] Want to know what get most VC’s excited? Like it or not, anything that really helps with this https://vimeo.com/3881271 _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On Mar 12, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
A small contribution on this: I’ve just released Merchant in github https://github.com/sebastianconcept/Merchant _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
On 12 Mar 2014, at 20:33, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Thanks sven. Still with 11 millions we can do some nice frameworks :) > > +1 > > We already know quite well why we use Pharo, what could help us is not to trigger defences but to do the opposite: > > To expose our weaknesses safely among friends who truly wants the best for each other[1] and reflect[2] on what would be the shortest path to thrive. > > The MeteorJS guys obviously reversed engineer what the big cats wanted and had the connections and the momentum. > > Not that we have to do the same but, wouldn’t be interesting to increase our chances? yo think we don’t? > > I know many VCs, but I can’t talk with anyone of them about Smalltalk because I don’t have reasons to do it[3] I am not against success, or progress, or ideas. The way I see it, is that *you* get successful with Flowing, hopefully based on Pharo, and then move some of your funds towards to community, the consortium to build specific things that you need and that would benefit us all. This is already happening today, but not enough. BTW, some of your sites seem to be down. > So, can you give me some? like the Meteor guys got? > > That’s the kind of useful reflections we need to have (and share) > > [1] otherwise we wouldn’t be a community worth belonging > [2] actually kind of a social reverse engineer to find out where people wants to pay attention to (and money follows attention) > [3] Want to know what get most VC’s excited? Like it or not, anything that really helps with this https://vimeo.com/3881271 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-business mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co
Excelente, thanks for sharing!
BTW, this is the sort of discussion that I think we need to have in the Smalltalk community!
I'm just doing somethings with metor (business are business) and it really is interesting in several aspects. But nothing that we can't do with Smalltalk. The problem with Meteor is that you need to develop using an editor, you know, going back 30 years! BTW 2: I hate the reply to the sender and not to the list!! :) 2014-03-12 18:04 GMT-03:00 Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]>:
Saludos / Regards,
Germán Arduino www.arduinosoftware.com _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 PM, Germán Arduino <[hidden email]> wrote:
thanks for expressing that
thanks for sharing your experience. One question I have in mind at this point is: Where the list of problems a modern full-stack needs? and by full-stack I mean to kick ass even meteor’s productivity I bet is something doable with Amber+Pharo
+1 on that! _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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> I bet is something doable with Amber+Pharo Nicolas and Esteban are working on that. Inria accepted to open-source it two days ago. We will announce it with doc and all the rest soon. For the people wanted to know more: have a look at tide on github. _______________________________________________ Pharo-business mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-business_lists.pharo.org |
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