Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

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Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

horrido
http://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/2zktsa/java_vs_smalltalk_cage_match/

Join in the conversation. The commenter provides a strong counter-argument and I don't know how to respond.

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Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

James Ladd
I'll respond to this later today.
It's an interesting bet. Wish I had spare cash to make this a real competition.
W Redline Smalltalk the library issue is moot
- James

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Re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

jtuchel
In reply to this post by horrido
Well, you know, the guy is making a sensible argument. There's a lot of truth in it. Ignoring this problem of missing bindings for X  means being ignorant of real life. I love Smalltalk, I prefer it over many alternatives, including Java and Javascript. But sometimes it feels like being overly religious rather than based on hard facts. There is a lot of wishful thinking to not switching to some other language.

So let's put it more positively: if your business domain is extremely complex and you can live without bindings for a lot of stuff, then Smalltalk is one of the best choices you can make. If you want to build something cool and modern-looking or leverage code from very C-oriented communities, it is probably easier to byte the bullet and go that route. Programming against C-APIs  in Smalltalk is not fun and tool support is poor.

So what do you think we should answer?

Am Samstag, 21. März 2015 15:41:23 UTC+1 schrieb Richard Eng:
<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/2zktsa/java_vs_smalltalk_cage_match/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsoftware%2Fcomments%2F2zktsa%2Fjava_vs_smalltalk_cage_match%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHsFrz4MxrSYfrH1-Q4saOQX-5adQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsoftware%2Fcomments%2F2zktsa%2Fjava_vs_smalltalk_cage_match%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHsFrz4MxrSYfrH1-Q4saOQX-5adQ';return true;">http://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/2zktsa/java_vs_smalltalk_cage_match/

Join in the conversation. The commenter provides a strong counter-argument and I don't know how to respond.

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Re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

horrido
I finally gave a response. It's the best I could do. What do you think?


On Sunday, 22 March 2015 08:07:08 UTC-4, Joachim Tuchel wrote:
Well, you know, the guy is making a sensible argument. There's a lot of truth in it. Ignoring this problem of missing bindings for X  means being ignorant of real life. I love Smalltalk, I prefer it over many alternatives, including Java and Javascript. But sometimes it feels like being overly religious rather than based on hard facts. There is a lot of wishful thinking to not switching to some other language.

So let's put it more positively: if your business domain is extremely complex and you can live without bindings for a lot of stuff, then Smalltalk is one of the best choices you can make. If you want to build something cool and modern-looking or leverage code from very C-oriented communities, it is probably easier to byte the bullet and go that route. Programming against C-APIs  in Smalltalk is not fun and tool support is poor.

So what do you think we should answer?

Am Samstag, 21. März 2015 15:41:23 UTC+1 schrieb Richard Eng:
<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/2zktsa/java_vs_smalltalk_cage_match/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsoftware%2Fcomments%2F2zktsa%2Fjava_vs_smalltalk_cage_match%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHsFrz4MxrSYfrH1-Q4saOQX-5adQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsoftware%2Fcomments%2F2zktsa%2Fjava_vs_smalltalk_cage_match%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHsFrz4MxrSYfrH1-Q4saOQX-5adQ';return true;">http://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/2zktsa/java_vs_smalltalk_cage_match/

Join in the conversation. The commenter provides a strong counter-argument and I don't know how to respond.

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re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

ccrraaiigg
In reply to this post by jtuchel

> Programming against C-APIs in Smalltalk is not fun and tool support
> is poor... So what do you think we should answer?

     How about expressing gratitude for the feedback, and diverting half
the energy we would have put into a response into improving the system? :)


-C

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Craig Latta
netjam.org
March 2015:
+ 1 510  480 5860 (SMS ok)
+31  20  893 2796 (no SMS)
afterward:
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)

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re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

James Ladd
>> How about expressing gratitude for the feedback, and diverting half the energy we would have put into a response into improving the system? :)

Any feedback is good feedback and I'm sure all those involved are grateful for the feedback.
I know I am.

The first step in fixing anything is acknowledging there is a problem. A fix is the next step. :) 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Craig Latta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Programming against C-APIs in Smalltalk is not fun and tool support
> is poor... So what do you think we should answer?

     How about expressing gratitude for the feedback, and diverting half
the energy we would have put into a response into improving the system? :)


-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
March 2015:
<a href="tel:%2B%201%20510%20%20480%205860" value="+15104805860">+ 1 510 480 5860 (SMS ok)
<a href="tel:%2B31%20%2020%20%20893%202796" value="+31208932796">+31 20 893 2796 (no SMS)
afterward:
<a href="tel:%2B31%20%20%206%202757%207177" value="+31627577177">+31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
<a href="tel:%2B%201%20415%20%20287%203547" value="+14152873547">+ 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)

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Re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

Reinout Heeck
In reply to this post by James Ladd
On 3/22/2015 1:28 AM, James Ladd wrote:
> I'll respond to this later today.
> It's an interesting bet. Wish I had spare cash to make this a real competition.
> W Redline Smalltalk the library issue is moot


Does Redline have the Browser/Inspector/Debugger combo?

If not I wouldn't qualify it as a Smalltalk (yet)...




Either way this cage fight has been on for quite a while now and the
results are known :-/



R
-

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Re: Java vs Smalltalk Cage Match

James Ladd
Good question - yes it does have the browser/inspector etc combo
You use an IDE like intellij and the Resline plugin.
All are still a work in progress.

Your question raises a very important point, that Smalltalkers don't see the syntax alone as the language yet for 99.99% of other languages the user does think the language is just the syntax.

To move Smalltalk forward in discussions this differentiation should be made more clear.

Sent from the holodeck.

> On 24 Mar 2015, at 12:19 am, Reinout Heeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2015 1:28 AM, James Ladd wrote:
>> I'll respond to this later today.
>> It's an interesting bet. Wish I had spare cash to make this a real competition.
>> W Redline Smalltalk the library issue is moot
>
>
> Does Redline have the Browser/Inspector/Debugger combo?
>
> If not I wouldn't qualify it as a Smalltalk (yet)...
>
>
>
>
> Either way this cage fight has been on for quite a while now and the results are known :-/
>
>
>
> R
> -
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Smalltalk Research" group.
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