Kivy

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Kivy

HilaireFernandes
For the record, a friend told me about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy

Will it be cool to have something like that?

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu



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Re: Kivy

Peter Uhnak
By "something like that" you mean what? More widgets? yaml-like DSL? Touch?


Peter

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
For the record, a friend told me about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy

Will it be cool to have something like that?

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu




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Re: Kivy

HilaireFernandes
All. Without forgetting multiplateform.

I mean when you have such a framework, people get attracted, although
Kivy was likely developed the other way: developed for Python because
Python is well know and widely used.

I am curious to know how Kivy was developed in the first place: a small
community effort, a corporation in house developed tool, funding...

Hilaire

Le 04/07/2015 15:49, Peter Uhnák a écrit :

> By "something like that" you mean what? More widgets? yaml-like DSL?
> Touch?
>
>
> Peter
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Hilaire
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     For the record, a friend told me about this
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy
>
>     Will it be cool to have something like that?
>
>     Hilaire
>
>     --
>     Dr. Geo
>     http://drgeo.eu
>     http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
>
>
>
>


--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu



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Re: Kivy

stepharo
In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
For the information we are working on touch and OSWindow improvements.
Alain is imporving Bloc the future graphic layer of Pharo, people from
bern are working on new widgets.
We are working on cleaning widgets. Now we also accept help.

Stef

Le 4/7/15 15:36, Hilaire a écrit :
> For the record, a friend told me about this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy
>
> Will it be cool to have something like that?
>
> Hilaire
>


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Re: Kivy

Glenn Cavarlé
Kivy embed a Python interpreter in a native mobile app. All is developed in Python in association  with their own declarative language : the kivy language.

To do the same thing with Smalltalk, i think you have CogDroid or PharoDroid that embed a smalltalk vm in a native mobile app. When Bloc Widgets will be available, it should be easy to provide a "wonderful" mobile-specific widget layer.

You can already do things like that with Bloc :



(I'm using it as a simulator for mobile apps developed in Pharo)

In another way, I'm working on a mobile development environment based on Pharo (part of my phd thesis). The goal is to use Pharo such as a modeling, development and validation environment in order to finally generate fully native mobile applications for several platforms.

So, i hope that Pharo will become mobile soon ! ;)

Regards,
Glenn.
Glenn Cavarlé
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Re: Kivy

stepharo

> Kivy embed a Python interpreter in a native mobile app. All is developed in
> Python in association  with their own declarative language : the kivy
> language.

This is cool because with the bootstrap and modularPharo then it can be
really interesting.
I think that we will see all our efforts paying in all kind of directions.

>
> To do the same thing with Smalltalk, i think you have CogDroid or PharoDroid
> that embed a smalltalk vm in a native mobile app. When Bloc Widgets will be
> available, it should be easy to provide a "wonderful" mobile-specific widget
> layer.
>
> You can already do things like that with Bloc :
>
> <http://forum.world.st/file/n4835762/BwtMobile.png>
>
> (I'm using it as a simulator for mobile apps developed in Pharo)
>
> In another way, I'm working on a mobile development environment based on
> Pharo (part of my phd thesis). The goal is to use Pharo such as a modeling,
> development and validation environment in order to finally generate fully
> native mobile applications for several platforms.
>
> So, i hope that Pharo will become mobile soon ! ;)

Me too.

>
> Regards,
> Glenn.
>
>
>
> -----
> Glenn Cavarlé
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Kivy-tp4835739p4835762.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>


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Re: Kivy

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by Glenn Cavarlé
On 7/4/15, Glenn Cavarlé <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Kivy embed a Python interpreter in a native mobile app. All is developed in
> Python in association  with their own declarative language : the kivy
> language.



> To do the same thing with Smalltalk, i think you have CogDroid or
> PharoDroid
> that embed a smalltalk vm in a native mobile app. When Bloc Widgets will be
> available, it should be easy to provide a "wonderful" mobile-specific
> widget
> layer.


> You can already do things like that with Bloc :
>
> <http://forum.world.st/file/n4835762/BwtMobile.png>
>
> (I'm using it as a simulator for mobile apps developed in Pharo)

Is Bloc a user interface markup language?

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language

Or a graphic framework like Morphic?

> In another way, I'm working on a mobile development environment based on
> Pharo (part of my phd thesis). The goal is to use Pharo such as a modeling,
> development and validation environment in order to finally generate fully
> native mobile applications for several platforms.

I assume Android and iOS are part of them...

> So, i hope that Pharo will become mobile soon ! ;)

3 months?

Regards
Hannes

>
> -----
> Glenn Cavarlé
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Kivy-tp4835739p4835762.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

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Re: Kivy

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
On 7/4/15, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the record, a friend told me about this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy
>
> Will it be cool to have something like that?
>
> Hilaire

Yes, and what about other options

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language

?

--Hannes

> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
> http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
>
>
>
>

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Re: Kivy

Glenn Cavarlé
In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
Hannes Hirzel wrote
Is Bloc a user interface markup language?

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language

Or a graphic framework like Morphic?
Bloc is a graphical core framework, it provides the basics features to build UI/Animation frameworks on top of it. A markup language or a declarative syntaxe is not part of Bloc but can be a good idea to experiment when a first widget framework will be released.
This is a point that particularly interests me, especially regarding declarative syntax.

Hannes Hirzel wrote
I assume Android and iOS are part of them...

> So, i hope that Pharo will become mobile soon ! ;)

3 months?
Yes, but unfortunately not in 3 month (for my part)...

Regards,
Glenn.
Glenn Cavarlé
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Re: Kivy

Peter Uhnak
In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
Is Bloc a user interface markup language?
Or a graphic framework like Morphic?

Bloc is replacement for Morphic.
Smalltalk is the markup language; it gives you much more expressiveness compared to static DSLs.
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Re: Kivy

HilaireFernandes
In reply to this post by stepharo
Le 04/07/2015 15:58, stepharo a écrit :

> For the information we are working on touch and OSWindow improvements.
> Alain is imporving Bloc the future graphic layer of Pharo, people from
> bern are working on new widgets.
> We are working on cleaning widgets. Now we also accept help.
>
> Stef
>
> Le 4/7/15 15:36, Hilaire a écrit :
>> For the record, a friend told me about this
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy
>>
>> Will it be cool to have something like that?
>>
>> Hilaire
>>
>
>
>
Sure I know. The constituting parts does not make the whole however. I
mean a larger plan could help structuring the parts and give a focus.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu



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Re: Kivy

stepharo
In reply to this post by Glenn Cavarlé


Le 4/7/15 19:04, Glenn Cavarlé a écrit :

> Hannes Hirzel wrote
>> Is Bloc a user interface markup language?
>>
>>       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language
>>
>> Or a graphic framework like Morphic?
> Bloc is a graphical core framework, it provides the basics features to build
> UI/Animation frameworks on top of it. A markup language or a declarative
> syntaxe is not part of Bloc but can be a good idea to experiment when a
> first widget framework will be released.
I'm not sure that we need a DSL.

> This is a point that particularly interests me, especially regarding
> declarative syntax.
>
>
> Hannes Hirzel wrote
>> I assume Android and iOS are part of them...
>>
>>> So, i hope that Pharo will become mobile soon ! ;)
>> 3 months?
> Yes, but unfortunately not in 3 month (for my part)...

Not for Brick too :)

>
> Regards,
> Glenn.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Glenn Cavarlé
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Kivy-tp4835739p4835775.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>


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Re: Kivy

stepharo
In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak
+1


Le 4/7/15 19:36, Peter Uhnák a écrit :
Is Bloc a user interface markup language?
Or a graphic framework like Morphic?

Bloc is replacement for Morphic.
Smalltalk is the markup language; it gives you much more expressiveness compared to static DSLs.

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Re: Kivy

stepharo
In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

>> For the information we are working on touch and OSWindow improvements.
>> Alain is imporving Bloc the future graphic layer of Pharo, people from
>> bern are working on new widgets.
>> We are working on cleaning widgets. Now we also accept help.
>>
>> Stef
> Sure I know. The constituting parts does not make the whole however. I
> mean a larger plan could help structuring the parts and give a focus.

Hilaire
we have a plan
     a new graphics core
     with new widgets
     and event touch support and several windows.

So I do not see why you say that we are not focused.
Now you do not create a graphics core in 2 days. And if more people
would help
then we would go faster :)
Alex is experimenting to port Roassal on Bloc and he is finding bugs
that Alain is fixing.

When I proposed topics to students this is also with this vision in mind.

Stef

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Re: Kivy

HilaireFernandes
Le 04/07/2015 23:06, stepharo a écrit :

>
>>> For the information we are working on touch and OSWindow improvements.
>>> Alain is imporving Bloc the future graphic layer of Pharo, people from
>>> bern are working on new widgets.
>>> We are working on cleaning widgets. Now we also accept help.
>>>
>>> Stef
>> Sure I know. The constituting parts does not make the whole however. I
>> mean a larger plan could help structuring the parts and give a focus.
>
> Hilaire
> we have a plan
>     a new graphics core
>     with new widgets
>     and event touch support and several windows.
>
> So I do not see why you say that we are not focused.
> Now you do not create a graphics core in 2 days. And if more people
> would help
> then we would go faster :)
> Alex is experimenting to port Roassal on Bloc and he is finding bugs
> that Alain is fixing.
>
> When I proposed topics to students this is also with this vision in mind.
>
> Stef
>
>

I didn't write Pharo is unfocused, I just think broader project like
kivy can give structuring focus.
When reading Pharo vision document, I see great parts/foci, but I am not
sure about the whole vision.
I agree it is easy to raise external opinion than working on that
internally, but however it does not dismiss the opinion.


Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu



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Re: Kivy

stepharo

>>>> For the information we are working on touch and OSWindow improvements.
>>>> Alain is imporving Bloc the future graphic layer of Pharo, people from
>>>> bern are working on new widgets.
>>>> We are working on cleaning widgets. Now we also accept help.
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>> Sure I know. The constituting parts does not make the whole however. I
>>> mean a larger plan could help structuring the parts and give a focus.
>> Hilaire
>> we have a plan
>>      a new graphics core
>>      with new widgets
>>      and event touch support and several windows.
>>
>> So I do not see why you say that we are not focused.
>> Now you do not create a graphics core in 2 days. And if more people
>> would help
>> then we would go faster :)
>> Alex is experimenting to port Roassal on Bloc and he is finding bugs
>> that Alain is fixing.
>>
>> When I proposed topics to students this is also with this vision in mind.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
> I didn't write Pharo is unfocused, I just think broader project like
> kivy can give structuring focus.

Yes
Now our project is: We also want Pharo to be a modern prototyping UI
platform
and this is why we did athens, cairo, now gesture, bloc, Morphic
cleaning, brick,....

> When reading Pharo vision document, I see great parts/foci, but I am not
> sure about the whole vision.
> I agree it is easy to raise external opinion than working on that
> internally, but however it does not dismiss the opinion.
>
>
> Hilaire
>


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Re: Kivy

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
In reply to this post by stepharo

> I'm not sure that we need a DSL.

I’m not sure that we don’t need a DSL :)
Spec is a kind of dsl and the idea is cool.

>> This is a point that particularly interests me, especially regarding
>> declarative syntax.
>> Yes, but unfortunately not in 3 month (for my part)...
>
> Not for Brick too :)

give one full year to Aliaksel together with Glenn :)


>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Glenn.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Glenn Cavarlé
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Kivy-tp4835739p4835775.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
>


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Re: Kivy

Hannes Hirzel
On 7/5/15, Alain Plantec via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
> {no text body}

In his thesis

     Dynamic Language Embedding
     With Homogeneous Tool Support

      http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf

Lukas Renggli p 2 mentions internal DSLs.

<citation>
Internal languages make a creative use of the host lan-
guage. They integrate seamlessly into the host lan-
guage and tools, but their syntax and semantics is
strictly constrained.
</citation>

Speaking of GUI construction in Smalltalk for the Widget part you
might consider that to be a library or API. For making use of the
widgets you may think of an internal DSL.

In addition the widgets as such might be rendered differently for
different platforms (in Smalltalk in one of the GUI frameworks, an
example was Squeak Morphic and MVC ) or outside (e.g. Kivy).

@Hilaire, what do you think is outstanding of special about Kivy?

I think to illustrate this it might be a nice experiment to develop a
'hello world' equivalent for GUI construction and have it rendered in
as many user interface languages as possible (Kivy, various types of
Morphic, Bloc etc., but as PPTX and ODP)

The domain to be covered should be simple as to avoid making the
exercise complex.

    Coming from a hello world type program means that at least a
picture and some
    interaction (mouse click and keyboard) has to be added.


A model which fulfills this and at the same time is useful as is for
certain contexts:

    a sequence of slides (think 'simple Powerpoint slide show')
    with the follwoing slide types
          - one image and one caption
          - on text field only
    reaction to click event to advance to the next slide
    reaction to cursor left and cursor right to navigate through the slides

and then rendering of the "GUI hello world program" in various languages


      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language

Another application domain for this is a picture book.


--Hannes

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Re: Kivy

Hannes Hirzel
Notes:

1. I understand that Kivy is an _external_ DSL (i.e. it is not Python
code), or is it Python code?

2. p 12 to 21 is about "2.1 Internal Languages"

3. The wikipedia example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivy is too
simple. But the idea of a 'hello world type program' should be
maintained and include showing the 'containment hierarchy', 'geometry'
and 'event handling' aspect of the GUI description.

4. I think for Smalltalk an internal DSL for this makes a lot of
sense, see Table 2.1 on page 13.

On 7/6/15, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/5/15, Alain Plantec via Pharo-users <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> {no text body}
>
> In his thesis
>
>      Dynamic Language Embedding
>      With Homogeneous Tool Support
>
>       http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/phd/renggli-phd.pdf
>
> Lukas Renggli p 2 mentions internal DSLs.
>
> <citation>
> Internal languages make a creative use of the host lan-
> guage. They integrate seamlessly into the host lan-
> guage and tools, but their syntax and semantics is
> strictly constrained.
> </citation>
>
> Speaking of GUI construction in Smalltalk for the Widget part you
> might consider that to be a library or API. For making use of the
> widgets you may think of an internal DSL.
>
> In addition the widgets as such might be rendered differently for
> different platforms (in Smalltalk in one of the GUI frameworks, an
> example was Squeak Morphic and MVC ) or outside (e.g. Kivy).
>
> @Hilaire, what do you think is outstanding of special about Kivy?
>
> I think to illustrate this it might be a nice experiment to develop a
> 'hello world' equivalent for GUI construction and have it rendered in
> as many user interface languages as possible (Kivy, various types of
> Morphic, Bloc etc., but as PPTX and ODP)
>
> The domain to be covered should be simple as to avoid making the
> exercise complex.
>
>     Coming from a hello world type program means that at least a
> picture and some
>     interaction (mouse click and keyboard) has to be added.
>
>
> A model which fulfills this and at the same time is useful as is for
> certain contexts:
>
>     a sequence of slides (think 'simple Powerpoint slide show')
>     with the follwoing slide types
>           - one image and one caption
>           - on text field only
>     reaction to click event to advance to the next slide
>     reaction to cursor left and cursor right to navigate through the slides
>
> and then rendering of the "GUI hello world program" in various languages
>
>
>       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_markup_language
>
> Another application domain for this is a picture book.
>
>
> --Hannes
>

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Re: Kivy

Peter Uhnak
> In addition the widgets as such might be rendered differently for
> different platforms (in Smalltalk in one of the GUI frameworks, an
> example was Squeak Morphic and MVC ) or outside (e.g. Kivy).
>
> @Hilaire, what do you think is outstanding of special about Kivy?
>
> I think to illustrate this it might be a nice experiment to develop a
> 'hello world' equivalent for GUI construction and have it rendered in
> as many user interface languages as possible (Kivy, various types of
> Morphic, Bloc etc., but as PPTX and ODP)

Theoretically speaking this is already possible with Spec, which is backend-independent GUI framework connected to backends (Morphic) via adapters.
It would be an interesting proof-of-concept to implement other backends such as HTML without touching Spec.

Peter
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