Look and font competition

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Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
Hi guys

this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!

Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)



Screen Shot 2012-06-10 at 10.26.15 AM.pdf (208K) Download Attachment
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Re: Look and font competition

Igor Stasenko
Stef, don't use pdf for image transfer.. it turns a beautiful, nicely
antialiased png picture into horrible back-to-80's patches.

On 10 June 2012 10:27, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
> And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>
> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
> bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Look and font competition

Igor Stasenko
ah.. sorry it looks like google's viewer using crappy rendering
quality.. if i download it and look using preview , the image quality
is preserved

On 10 June 2012 16:44, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Stef, don't use pdf for image transfer.. it turns a beautiful, nicely
> antialiased png picture into horrible back-to-80's patches.
>
> On 10 June 2012 10:27, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi guys
>>
>> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
>> And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>>
>> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
>> bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
>> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Look and font competition

Pavel Krivanek-3
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
What about slightly warmer base color that plain gray.

baseColor
        ^ Color r: 199 g: 192 b: 181 range: 255

I'm confident with DejaVu font. I tried several others but in case I
found some font that looked prettier, it was hardly usable for the
code (e.g. URW Ghotic L).

-- Pavel


On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
> And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>
> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
> bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>
>

PharoScreenshot.3.png (67K) Download Attachment
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Re: Look and font competition

Olivier Auverlot
Anonymous Pro is a cool font for editing code (http://www.ms-studio.com/FontSales/anonymouspro.html)


Olivier ;-)



On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi guys

this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!

Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)


<PharoScreenshot.3.png>

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Re: Look and font competition

S Krish
As this gif shows, and I prefer, the SBDIC buttons should be hidden away and prefereably as a drop down as it used to be earlier.

In normal dev workflow, its rare to slip to using this access and even if its often, I find it to my aesthetic sense a little better to have an usual drop down list.
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Re: Look and font competition

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
> And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>
> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
> bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>
>
>  
Perhaps you want to consider something like Microsoft's beloved paper
clip helper ?


PharoPonyInterface.png (287K) Download Attachment
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Re: Look and font competition

EstebanLM
yesterday we where hacking with Igor a non-OpenGL version of vm... and then we said... why not VM-support for look and feel?
So, we quickly coded this different options for look and feel (to get these, you just need to fuck up matrix translations and endianess): 

"lovely pink":


"dislexic purple":

:)

On Jun 12, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys

this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins. And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)


 
Perhaps you want to consider something like Microsoft's beloved paper clip helper ?

<PharoPonyInterface.png>

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Re: Look and font competition

Damien Cassou
On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
yesterday we where hacking with Igor a non-OpenGL version of vm... and then we said... why not VM-support for look and feel?
So, we quickly coded this different options for look and feel (to get these, you just need to fuck up matrix translations and endianess): 

stop it! It burns

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry
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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
Ben
you are cool :) I'm amazed I should buy a windows machine, I would have never imagine that they did it!
You really beat us on that one :). May be we will not put it on web for the Pharo2.0 announce :)
Now if somebody with better design tastes than us would have some time we would really like to get a
real professional style for 2.0.

Stef


>> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins. And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
>> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>>
>>
>>  
> Perhaps you want to consider something like Microsoft's beloved paper clip helper ?
>
> <PharoPonyInterface.png>


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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou

On Jun 12, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
> yesterday we where hacking with Igor a non-OpenGL version of vm... and then we said... why not VM-support for look and feel?
> So, we quickly coded this different options for look and feel (to get these, you just need to fuck up matrix translations and endianess):
>
> stop it! It burns

LOL
you do not like pink ponies but you like pink flyod. strange no?
Stef
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry


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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
If the symptoms persist consider taking one week off your keyboard…


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Re: Look and font competition

Igor Stasenko
On 12 June 2012 11:44, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If the symptoms persist consider taking one week off your keyboard…
>
>
unfortunately, we managed to display it like it should

:)


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Look and font competition

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> this morning Igor shows me all his work around dynlib loading of third party plugins.
> And yes now we get all the third party plugins downloaded and compiled (yes with only one copy of FT2)….Great stuff!
>
> Now we would like to organize a little competition for the official look of Pharo 2.0. So if you feel that you are a little
> bit designer inside, please send us proposals.
> We propose this one :) based on Curlz MT (welcome to the world of the pink little ponies) :)
>
>
>  
I've got an interest in graphic design.  I've just done a bit of reading
around to familiarize myself with font choice.

First of all, there is the question of monospaced versus proportional
fonts.  It is widely believed that monospaced fonts are better for
programming but then Smalltalk is often different and better.  I notice
that Pharo 1.4 uses proportional fonts and I've never had a problem with
that.  There is good discussion at [1].

Then there are considerations of technology differences to consider
between platforms.
    * A difference in rendering between Microsoft and Apple [2]
    * Whether ClearType is available cross platform? Some advantages [3]
    * Is TrueType available on all platforms?
    * Will anti-aliasing be always-on?

[1]
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/does-anyone-prefer-proportional-fonts
[2] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/06/12.html
[3] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/fontblog/archive/2005/12/13/503236.aspx

Some points against proportional fonts are:

1. Not designed for programming.  Distinguishing small-o, cap-o & zero
and one, small-i, cap-i, small-l, cap-L is the critical feature.
Punctuation is often not very distinctive.  A little while ago there was
a hack to make the period character larger.   Also in Pharo 1.4 cap-i
and small-l are hard to distinguish.

2. Alignment of indents.  Mainly this is where different developers can
use 8, 4 or 2 spaces for fixed tabstops which affects the alignment of
text.  However searching World > System > Settings for "tab" doesn't
show this is configurable, so Pharo seems to sidestep this issue.

So I like...
   * Droid Sans (http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Droid+Sans)
Apache License. Steve Matteson.

   * Ubuntu (http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Ubuntu) (similar to
Open Font License)

Some points for monospaced fonts are:

3. Some characters are just wider than others. Cramming an 'm' into the
space of an 'i' makes it challenging to design a good readable monospace
font.

4. Most programmer fonts lack italic and bold - which I think becomes
important for Nautilus.

 * From
http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/30040/Font-Survey-42-of-the-Best-Monospaced-Programming   
I like...

 * Liberation Mono.  In particular it seems the clearest of the lot when
ClearType is disabled.  It deals very well with point (1) above. However
while the download page says it is Open Font License the download itself
contains only a modified GPL2 license that allows embedding without
modification of the font. Steve Matteson.

  * Droid Sans Mono.  Same author. Distinguishable point (1). Strong
period. Strong number 1 which matches how it appears in engineering
drawings.  Apache license.  Also consider that people like what they are
familiar with, and Android will become fairly widespread.

  * Dina. Clean without ClearType.  Identical even with ClearType. MIT
type license.

AnonymousPro does also looks good.

Disclaimer: I am yet to use these fonts in anger.  Just reporting
impressions so far.

cheers -ben










As an aside, even with monospaced fonts there remains an issue with
fixed tabstops where new text inserted preceeding a tab stop bumps the
tab out of alignment with other vertically aligned text.  An very
interesting fix for this is "elastic tabstops" [2] [3]
[2] http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
[3] http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html


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Re: Look and font competition

Igor Stasenko
> As an aside, even with monospaced fonts there remains an issue with fixed
> tabstops where new text inserted preceeding a tab stop bumps the tab out of
> alignment with other vertically aligned text.  An very interesting fix for
> this is "elastic tabstops" [2] [3]
> [2] http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
> [3] http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html
>
we should do that :)



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Look and font competition

Helene Bilbo
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stéphane Ducasse wrote
Now if somebody with better design tastes than us would have some time we would really like to get a
real professional style for 2.0.
Design is not a question of 'fonts' and 'tastes'. Better UI ususally has some serious research background. You probably have to pay - or get interested - (the right) professionals to do it, and it’s worth it too!

If there is one sheer 'taste' thing, i wonder if Pharo is capable of having textured UI-elements, like Mac OSX Lion. I attach an image of a button with a subtle texture to illustrate what i mean.

Also, have a look at how this guy, Matt Gemmell, has something like Halos (I know, you don’t like them ;) adopted for iOS. It looks amazing! http://mattgemmell.com/2012/05/14/mgtilemenu/

subtle texture for button. image taken from mattgemmell.com
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Re: Look and font competition

Helene Bilbo
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I attached proper document icons for .image, .changes and .sources files to this issue:
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5626
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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On Jun 12, 2012, at 6:43 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

>> As an aside, even with monospaced fonts there remains an issue with fixed
>> tabstops where new text inserted preceeding a tab stop bumps the tab out of
>> alignment with other vertically aligned text.  An very interesting fix for
>> this is "elastic tabstops" [2] [3]
>> [2] http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
>> [3] http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html
>>
> we should do that :)

but we need the code in pharo :)
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>


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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
>  I've got an interest in graphic design.  I've just done a bit of reading around to familiarize myself with font choice.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

> First of all, there is the question of monospaced versus proportional fonts.  It is widely believed that monospaced fonts are better for programming but then Smalltalk is often different and better.  I notice that Pharo 1.4 uses proportional fonts and I've never had a problem with that.  

Indeed.
For us one of the key point is ifTrue: [:each | and of course . and bla; yourself.
readibility.

> There is good discussion at [1].
> Then there are considerations of technology differences to consider between platforms.
>   * A difference in rendering between Microsoft and Apple [2]
>   * Whether ClearType is available cross platform? Some advantages [3]
>   * Is TrueType available on all platforms?
>   * Will anti-aliasing be always-on?
> [1] http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/does-anyone-prefer-proportional-fonts
> [2] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/06/12.html
> [3] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/fontblog/archive/2005/12/13/503236.aspx
>
> Some points against proportional fonts are:
>
> 1. Not designed for programming.  Distinguishing small-o, cap-o & zero and one, small-i, cap-i, small-l, cap-L is the critical feature. Punctuation is often not very distinctive.  A little while ago there was a hack to make the period character larger.   Also in Pharo 1.4 cap-i and small-l are hard to distinguish.
> 2. Alignment of indents.  Mainly this is where different developers can use 8, 4 or 2 spaces for fixed tabstops which affects the alignment of text.  However searching World > System > Settings for "tab" doesn't show this is configurable, so Pharo seems to sidestep this issue.
>
> So I like...
>  * Droid Sans (http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Droid+Sans) Apache License. Steve Matteson.
>
>  * Ubuntu (http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Ubuntu) (similar to Open Font License)
>
> Some points for monospaced fonts are:
>
> 3. Some characters are just wider than others. Cramming an 'm' into the space of an 'i' makes it challenging to design a good readable monospace font.
>
> 4. Most programmer fonts lack italic and bold - which I think becomes important for Nautilus.
>
> * From http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/30040/Font-Survey-42-of-the-Best-Monospaced-Programming   I like...
>
> * Liberation Mono.  In particular it seems the clearest of the lot when ClearType is disabled.  It deals very well with point (1) above. However while the download page says it is Open Font License the download itself contains only a modified GPL2 license that allows embedding without modification of the font. Steve Matteson.
>
> * Droid Sans Mono.  Same author. Distinguishable point (1). Strong period. Strong number 1 which matches how it appears in engineering drawings.  Apache license.  Also consider that people like what they are familiar with, and Android will become fairly widespread.
>
> * Dina. Clean without ClearType.  Identical even with ClearType. MIT type license.
>
> AnonymousPro does also looks good.
>
> Disclaimer: I am yet to use these fonts in anger.  Just reporting impressions so far.
>
> cheers -ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As an aside, even with monospaced fonts there remains an issue with fixed tabstops where new text inserted preceeding a tab stop bumps the tab out of alignment with other vertically aligned text.  An very interesting fix for this is "elastic tabstops" [2] [3]
> [2] http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
> [3] http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html
>
>


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Re: Look and font competition

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Helene Bilbo

On Jun 12, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Helene Bilbo wrote:

>
> Stéphane Ducasse wrote
>>
>> Now if somebody with better design tastes than us would have some time we
>> would really like to get a
>> real professional style for 2.0.
>>
>
> Design is not a question of 'fonts' and 'tastes'. Better UI ususally has
> some serious research background. You probably have to pay - or get
> interested - (the right) professionals to do it, and it’s worth it too!

Yes but so far we cannot afford it.

> If there is one sheer 'taste' thing, i wonder if Pharo is capable of having
> textured UI-elements, like Mac OSX Lion. I attach an image of a button with
> a subtle texture to illustrate what i mean.
>
> Also, have a look at how this guy, Matt Gemmell, has something like Halos (I
> know, you don’t like them ;) adopted for iOS. It looks amazing!

This is not that I do not like them.
I do not like that when the get in our way. Else they are cool interaction devices.

> http://mattgemmell.com/2012/05/14/mgtilemenu/

I'm not sure that you do not get lost with tile Menu
>
> http://forum.world.st/file/n4634496/texture.png 

Why could not we have button with a texture. There is a Iconic button


>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Look-and-font-competition-tp4634175p4634496.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


12