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Looking for Scratch base image

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Stéphane Rollandin

Looking for Scratch base image

Hello,

I'm currently studying the Scratch code. The image I have (the BYOB 1.3
image) has a Smalltalk version of 'MIT Squeak 0.9.4 (June 1, 2003)'.

How could I find the original corresponding base Squeak image (that is,
the same image without Scratch code) ?

Stef

Derek O'Connell-3

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

On 29/01/13 13:50, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm currently studying the Scratch code. The image I have (the BYOB
> 1.3 image) has a Smalltalk version of 'MIT Squeak 0.9.4 (June 1,
> 2003)'.
>
> How could I find the original corresponding base Squeak image (that
> is, the same image without Scratch code) ?
>
> Stef
>

In the root project it says it is based on 2.8 which would be here:
ftp://ftp.squeak.org/2.8/

Derek O'Connell-3

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin

On 29/01/13 13:50, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

more specifically: ftp://ftp.squeak.org/2.8/files/

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

Thanks !

Do you think there are differences between 2.8 and MIT 0.9.4 ?

Stef

Derek O'Connell-3

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

On 29/01/13 15:02, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
> Thanks !
>
> Do you think there are differences between 2.8 and MIT 0.9.4 ?
>
> Stef
>

In the root project there is a list of changes made to 2.8 along with
some image prep actions. Are you migrating Scratch to a newer image?

Bert Freudenberg

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin

On 2013-01-29, at 16:02, Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks !
>
> Do you think there are differences between 2.8 and MIT 0.9.4 ?
>
> Stef

Most likely. Born-in-the-wool Smalltalkers like John treat Squeak as a whole personal system and touch up whatever is needed to make it better suit their purpose. I'm pretty sure you would find changes all over the place.

- Bert -

Karl Ramberg

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

There is some info here:

http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code

Karl

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2013-01-29, at 16:02, Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks !
>
> Do you think there are differences between 2.8 and MIT 0.9.4 ?
>
> Stef

Most likely. Born-in-the-wool Smalltalkers like John treat Squeak as a whole personal system and touch up whatever is needed to make it better suit their purpose. I'm pretty sure you would find changes all over the place.

- Bert -

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Derek O'Connell-3

> In the root project there is a list of changes made to 2.8 along with
> some image prep actions. Are you migrating Scratch to a newer image?

Only if that appears to be manageable. One of my daughters loves Scratch
and it would be nice if I could expand it to my (and her) tastes. Now
BYOB 3.1 is already very nice as it is.

But I'm curious...

Stef

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Derek O'Connell-3

> In the root project there is a list of changes made to 2.8 along with
> some image prep actions.

Where is that exactly ?

Stef

Bert Freudenberg

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin

On 29.01.2013, at 20:11, Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the root project there is a list of changes made to 2.8 along with
some image prep actions. Are you migrating Scratch to a newer image?

Only if that appears to be manageable. One of my daughters loves Scratch and it would be nice if I could expand it to my (and her) tastes. Now BYOB 3.1 is already very nice as it is.

But I'm curious...

Stef

Well, if you just want to modify it then there is no need for porting, right? Just use the image as it is.

If you want to us a modern squeak, then someone else already extracted the important bits, which might be a good starting point:

http://www.squeaksource.com/nscratch.html

- Bert -

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

> Well, if you just want to modify it then there is no need for porting,
> right? Just use the image as it is.

If I intend to inject some muO stuff in it, that won't do...

> http://www.squeaksource.com/nscratch.html

I'll have a look, thanks.

Stef

Markus Gälli-3

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

You know that you can "shift click" into the top half of the R of SCRATCH on the top left of Scratch -- then open the rabbit hole via "turn fill screen off"...

Cheers

Markus

On 29.01.2013, at 21:00, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

Well, if you just want to modify it then there is no need for porting,
right? Just use the image as it is.

If I intend to inject some muO stuff in it, that won't do...

http://www.squeaksource.com/nscratch.html

I'll have a look, thanks.

Stef

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

On 1/29/13, Markus Gälli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You know that you can "shift click" into the top half of the R of SCRATCH on
> the top left of Scratch -- then open the rabbit hole via "turn fill screen
> off"...
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Markus

Thank you for the tip, Markus.

Interesting to note that success of an application does not depend on
the age of the image in this case. Nostalgia.... MVC only.

--Hannes

ScratchAfterOpeningTheRabbitHole.png (35K) Download Attachment

Bert Freudenberg

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

On 2013-01-29, at 21:29, "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/29/13, Markus Gälli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You know that you can "shift click" into the top half of the R of SCRATCH on
>> the top left of Scratch -- then open the rabbit hole via "turn fill screen
>> off"...
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Markus
>
> Thank you for the tip, Markus.
>
> Interesting to note that success of an application does not depend on
> the age of the image in this case. Nostalgia.... MVC only.

Huh? Scratch is implemented in Morphic.

- Bert -

Markus Gälli-3

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

Scratch beta 2.0 was just released re-implemented in flash today:
http://beta.scratch.mit.edu/projects/editor/

Unfortunately we don't have Morphic for vectors -- do we?
Might be a killer app on android tablets and other platforms which don't allow flash but would allow sharing of projects.

Markus

On 29.01.2013, at 21:35, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

>
> On 2013-01-29, at 21:29, "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/13, Markus Gälli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You know that you can "shift click" into the top half of the R of SCRATCH on
>>> the top left of Scratch -- then open the rabbit hole via "turn fill screen
>>> off"...
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Markus
>>
>> Thank you for the tip, Markus.
>>
>> Interesting to note that success of an application does not depend on
>> the age of the image in this case. Nostalgia.... MVC only.
>
> Huh? Scratch is implemented in Morphic.
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

On 1/29/13, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Huh? Scratch is implemented in Morphic.
>
> - Bert -

Yes, indeed, you are right. I was mislead by the appearance of the
SystemBrowser.

--Hannes

ScratchIsImplementedInMorphic.png (27K) Download Attachment

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3

On 1/29/13, Markus Gälli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Scratch beta 2.0 was just released re-implemented in flash today:
> http://beta.scratch.mit.edu/projects/editor/

What about snap (JavaScript implementation)?

http://chirp.scratchr.org/dl/experimental/JsMorphic/snap.html

It should run on tablets.

The directory is open

http://chirp.scratchr.org/dl/experimental/JsMorphic/

The implementation of Morphic.js is very readable.

--Hannes

>
> Unfortunately we don't have Morphic for vectors -- do we?
> Might be a killer app on android tablets and other platforms which don't
> allow flash but would allow sharing of projects.
>
> Markus
>
>
> On 29.01.2013, at 21:35, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2013-01-29, at 21:29, "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/29/13, Markus Gälli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> You know that you can "shift click" into the top half of the R of
>>>> SCRATCH on
>>>> the top left of Scratch -- then open the rabbit hole via "turn fill
>>>> screen
>>>> off"...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Markus
>>>
>>> Thank you for the tip, Markus.
>>>
>>> Interesting to note that success of an application does not depend on
>>> the age of the image in this case. Nostalgia.... MVC only.
>>
>> Huh? Scratch is implemented in Morphic.
>>
>> - Bert -
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

David T. Lewis

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 08:46:28PM +0000, H. Hirzel wrote:

> On 1/29/13, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Huh? Scratch is implemented in Morphic.
> >
> > - Bert -
>
> Yes, indeed, you are right. I was mislead by the appearance of the
> SystemBrowser.
>
> --Hannes

Well, it was implemented in an image for which MVC was still fully functional.
Does that count?

'finish ToolBuilder support for MVC debugger' notMyResponsibility

;-)

Dave

p.s. Jokes aside, I really *would* like to get MVC working properly again,
while also maintaining its status as a reloadable package. I really wish
Andreas could be here to offer guidance and counsel, but I'm sure we can
figure it out on our own, it just might take a little longer. I think I'm
going to make that a personal objective for 2013.

dcorking

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel

I think for music (muO) Stephane is better off with Squeak or Pharo
implementations of Scratch, as Bert suggested. Nevertheless, Hannes
Hirzel wrote a very interesting post:

> What about snap (JavaScript implementation)?
>
> http://chirp.scratchr.org/dl/experimental/JsMorphic/snap.html
>
> It should run on tablets.

SNAP! is version 4 of BYOB, so it will have the fun computer-sciency
bits that BYOB added to Scratch, and which should give Scratch a
higher ceiling.

You should also find Jens Moenig's two pre-release articles interesting:
http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=39 ("Enjoy it on your iPad!")
http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=34

Markus Gaelli wrote:
>> Unfortunately we don't have Morphic for vectors -- do we?
>> Might be a killer app on android tablets and other platforms which don't
>> allow flash but would allow sharing of projects.

I might be wrong, but I think Dan Ingalls's Lively Kernel research is
Morphic for vectors (specifically SVG)

http://www.lively-kernel.org/

(The Google Play store has the Adobe Air client for ARMv7 upwards. But
HTML5 is a lot less hassle for users. Didn't Adobe announce an
end-of-life plan for its Flash/Shockwave/Air clients in favour of
HTML5?)

In my opinion, Scratch, as a bitmap app, already has potential to be a
killer app on tablets and smartphones.

Yet if someone builds collaborative toys and games around a vector and
touch-based Morphic, I think they will be embarking on a rewarding
project.

On the same topic, we need great ideas for a touch user experience for
Morphic Etoys over at Squeakland. It is pretty urgent as the
single-touch OLPC tablet is out soon, and those lovely scripting tiles
need fine motor control, tiny fingers, a two-button mouse and a
keyboard.

http://squeakland.org/discuss/squeakland/

Have fun! David

Chris Hogan-2

Re: Looking for Scratch base image

I believe that Lively was switched to canvas.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:03 AM, David Corking <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think for music (muO) Stephane is better off with Squeak or Pharo
implementations of Scratch, as Bert suggested. Nevertheless, Hannes
Hirzel wrote a very interesting post:

> What about snap (JavaScript implementation)?
>
> http://chirp.scratchr.org/dl/experimental/JsMorphic/snap.html
>
> It should run on tablets.

SNAP! is version 4 of BYOB, so it will have the fun computer-sciency
bits that BYOB added to Scratch, and which should give Scratch a
higher ceiling.

You should also find Jens Moenig's two pre-release articles interesting:
http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=39 ("Enjoy it on your iPad!")
http://www.chirp.scratchr.org/blog/?p=34

Markus Gaelli wrote:
>> Unfortunately we don't have Morphic for vectors -- do we?
>> Might be a killer app on android tablets and other platforms which don't
>> allow flash but would allow sharing of projects.

I might be wrong, but I think Dan Ingalls's Lively Kernel research is
Morphic for vectors (specifically SVG)

http://www.lively-kernel.org/

(The Google Play store has the Adobe Air client for ARMv7 upwards. But
HTML5 is a lot less hassle for users. Didn't Adobe announce an
end-of-life plan for its Flash/Shockwave/Air clients in favour of
HTML5?)

In my opinion, Scratch, as a bitmap app, already has potential to be a
killer app on tablets and smartphones.

Yet if someone builds collaborative toys and games around a vector and
touch-based Morphic, I think they will be embarking on a rewarding
project.

On the same topic, we need great ideas for a touch user experience for
Morphic Etoys over at Squeakland. It is pretty urgent as the
single-touch OLPC tablet is out soon, and those lovely scripting tiles
need fine motor control, tiny fingers, a two-button mouse and a
keyboard.

http://squeakland.org/discuss/squeakland/

Have fun! David