Looking for good souls
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There already is one http://groups.yahoo.com/group/squeaknewbie/
I signed up a while back when I saw it so I could help newbies if they had questions. I asked on the list if anyone was using the group and if anyone needed help. I got a response that said we get mostly spam and no questions. I'm still subscribed to it just incase someone stumbles on it and asks a question. (I'm not taking sides just providing information) Ron Teitelbaum > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev- > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of stéphane ducasse > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:34 AM > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > Subject: Re: Looking for good souls > > Hi guys > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > knowledge. > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not > invite anybody to learn and grow? > Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? > > May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to > try instead of staying with your > certainty about life and facts. > > My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to > people > that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day > to communicate with us. > These are years that because of technological aspects we did not > create such a list. > > > Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via > squeakfondation as a normal and public list > as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in > our cool community, or I create > a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let > you decide. But I will do it (you know me > and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it > fails but at least I could be looking at this scar > and be proud of it). > > > > > Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make > > several lists, for different languages. > > > > As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against > > splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must > > split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When > > the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to > > grow the community, the lists must split. > > > > Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and > > advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the > > others won't. > > > > -Ralph > > Stef |
Re: [Squeakland] Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
Hi all,
Markus Gaelli wrote: >Hi Stef, > >The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) >currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is >correct. >Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for >education of object oriented programmers nubs. > >Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be >part of the squeakland-image? >Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams >the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment? > > > good one. Most of the time Squeak has been oriented toward childs, and I mean, really young childs, so what about "a system for children of all ages"?. I'm trying to use Squeak with a pretty eclectic groups of students in university (the only thing they share is that all them are pregrade students) and I come to squeak after having previous experience with Scheme and Python (that were previous sucessfull experience with students with a more common background and interest in "Computer Science", which I prefer to call "Informatics"[1]). It was a pretty good thing to choose Squeak this time, I'm proud of that choice and I will stick to it in the future. This construction was not an easy one and is still being made. We need more content that can be used for the students profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of original material. [1] http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/informatics.shtml Now we can even make a little exploration of E-toys, but my feeling is that the time is comming when we need to start learnings and asking questions about Smalltalk. >What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so >serious. > >I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak >for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk. >And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots >of good souls there, who do focus on education. >Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn >a lot from the etoys paradigm. > > > is a bridge for making "a system for children of all ages". Sorry if this mail is taking too long, but I will try to talk more about bridges and my previous experience teaching "Introduction to Informatics" (anyway I read all of you a lot, so its time for revenge :-P ) In that course we try to make a first exploration of informatics from the point of view of a "first in width" instead of the classical one (at least here), the "first in depth" (you know, the one where the students firs encounter with informatics is procedural structured programming, in C/C++, then Object Oriented Programming, In Java/.Net, then Data Base, etc... and in the end of their career studies they come with some kind of revelation and they join the pieces and say "Ohhh this is informatics"). In our first in width approach we try to know something about story, social context, subfields in a panoramic way and the course then goes to programming (because they need to being motivated and prepared about the "now in depth" approach of the following courses). In my previous semesters I tried to follow the path proposed by the people of Teach Scheme Project, about: 1) Keep away from Machine Details (C/C++ is not enougth far from a beginer point of view in my student and teacher experience) and 2) Focus on correctness instead of eficiency (focus on program desing). and they key was the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Sintactically). Was really nice to see all the class having their first program working and understood. And the teach scheme project has a emphasis on learned oriented programming environments, so was nice to see programming seeing as a "liberal art" instead of something teached for programers by programers (in the same way that mathematics is not only for mathematicians). To make a long story short, then I probed python because it maintain the same K.I.S.S. principle and will be more like the program languages they will find or have found in the rest of ther studies. That was nice if all the people were students of informatics but... This semester I have and eclectic group (the course was made an open one), people from biology, informatics, engeenering, nutrition, some of them are just starting their studies, some of them were finishing them... and scheme and python were not the solution for that group. The programming environment was "deprived"... was something like a "wordpad with sintactical hightlighting"... their motivations where different, so I need to appeal to a shared cultural background this time, and computers where nice multimedia, connected, feature rich machine for them. In that context Squek/Smalltalk was the answer. It provides a bridge from computers in the world to computers in the classroom, and different people were more motivated. Now we need to start to make bridges from computers in the classrom to programming as a part of a scientific discipline and even part of life, and young children materials are not filling the gap for my students. We need to make a bridge between our classroom and your community... that's the reason why I'm here and I hope you help me. >I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much faster, >when they have been introduced to EToys first. > > > Thanks for the advice. I will try to follow it, this week. >Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ >discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development of >EToys. > > > I feel that few bridges between communities are making education a mission impossible... but I have made a log mail already... Cheers, Offray -- El Directorio ------------------------------ .:| Tecnología |:. .:| Comunidad | Libertad |:. \| Colombia |/ ------------------------------ www.el-directorio.org |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
If you create it, please do add a gmane interface as Craig suggested -
http://squeak.joyful.com/HowToAddListsToGmane . |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Alan Kay
May be to be really clear we could call it
welcome-squeakers Stef On 24 avr. 06, at 13:03, Alan Kay wrote: > I also think a new mailing list for newcomers would be a good idea. > > Cheers, > > Alan > > At 03:49 AM 4/24/2006, Elod Kironsky wrote: >> Hi! >> >> I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will >> do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that >> some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to >> squeak newbies and scare them away from >> writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new >> list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the >> problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, >> then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who >> feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to >> this list and place a vote wheter you would like a >> squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-) >> >> Elod >> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your >>> knowledge. >>> Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not >>> invite anybody to learn and grow? >>> Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? >>> Really? >>> >>> May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to >>> try instead of staying with your >>> certainty about life and facts. >>> >>> My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to >>> people >>> that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per >>> day >>> to communicate with us. >>> These are years that because of technological aspects we did not >>> create such a list. >>> >>> >>> Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via >>> squeakfondation as a normal and public list >>> as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in >>> our cool community, or I create >>> a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let >>> you decide. But I will do it (you know me >>> and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it >>> fails but at least I could be looking at this scar >>> and be proud of it). >>> >>>> >>>> Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make >>>> several lists, for different languages. >>>> >>>> As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against >>>> splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must >>>> split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. >>>> When the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If >>>> you want to grow the community, the lists must split. >>>> >>>> Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and >>>> advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the >>>> others won't. >>>> >>>> -Ralph >>> >>> >>> Stef >>> >> > > > |
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In reply to this post by Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Stef, you can count me in to show newbies around.
I have the same problems other *teachers* using Squeak have, and that is that my students are afraid of this list (for various reasons). In the past I even created local lists so that they could communicate with me, some of my assistents, and each other. This has nothing to do with splitting the list! A stupid but effective way to guide people to this mailing list is: - having a clear footer that indicates that this is the new (or whatever name) mailing list, and that talks about the 'real' mailing list. No worries, as soon as they feel ready people will move. - the 'teachers' on the newbie list occasionaly have to reroute questions once they get beyod newbie questions. It is that plain and simple. Note that adding such list will *grow* the community, not *split* it... How can it split when the people that will answer the newbies still belong to the squeak-dev as well ?! Do you think that because I am answering newbies I will no longer be interested in squeak-dev ?! This is crazy. The 'do not split the mailing-lists' discussions in the past were said in a completely different context than for helping out newbies. We were talking about real variations of the language (with a real danger of splitting) or the community (the developers versus the sunday Squeakers). That is not the way to split this mailing list. But for helping out newbies, that is a different cause alltogether. >> >> Subject: Re: Looking for good souls >> >> Hi guys >> >> You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your >> knowledge. >> Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not >> invite anybody to learn and grow? >> Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? >> Really? >> >> May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to >> try instead of staying with your >> certainty about life and facts. >> >> My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to >> people >> that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day >> to communicate with us. >> These are years that because of technological aspects we did not >> create such a list. >> >> >> Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via >> squeakfondation as a normal and public list >> as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in >> our cool community, or I create >> a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let >> you decide. But I will do it (you know me >> and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it >> fails but at least I could be looking at this scar >> and be proud of it). >> >>> >>> Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make >>> several lists, for different languages. >>> >>> As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against >>> splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must >>> split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When >>> the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to >>> grow the community, the lists must split. >>> >>> Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and >>> advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the >>> others won't. >>> >>> -Ralph >> >> Stef > > > |
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In reply to this post by Hilaire Fernandes-5
I think Squeak-Tutors implies discussion among the tutors, not between tutors and learners.
How about, simply, "learn-squeak"? ----- Original Message ---- From: Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:05:17 AM Subject: Re: Looking for good souls francois schnell a écrit : > Personally I quiet like the "tutor" prefix (or any prefix which focus on > *learning* but not on belonging to any kind of select club or 'sect'). > As I mentioned before the list 'Python-Tutors' works well and have been > very helpful for me and it begins with a statement which don't scare > beginners : "Tutor -- Discussion for learning programming with Python". I agree with François, "tutor" included in the mailing list name will be meaningfull for starters. Hilaire |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Isn't this statement going a teenie weenie bit too far? You seem indeed
to be saying that you need a "friendlier" list because this is a "conservative, private, dandy club, not inviting anybody to learn and grow and sitting on its knowledge". Harsh words even by my standards. BTW, even though Ralph is obviously right on a global scale, the question needs to be asked whether *now* is the time to add an extra mailing list or not. Given the debate we've seen I'm more on the sceptical side - it doesn't seem like there is an obvious need but sometimes these things take time to develop so we shall see. The one thing I believe will be critical however, is that the mailing list is easily recognizable. Thus far, most people refer to this mailing list simply as THE squeak mailing list which (given historical context) is correct - but if you want to avoid newbies to feel like second-class citizens we should have simple and clear names. And I'll withstand the temptation to offer my $.02 for such a name here ;-) Cheers, - Andreas stéphane ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > knowledge. > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite > anybody to learn and grow? > Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? > > May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try > instead of staying with your > certainty about life and facts. > > My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people > that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to > communicate with us. > These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create > such a list. > > > Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via > squeakfondation as a normal and public list > as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our > cool community, or I create > a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you > decide. But I will do it (you know me > and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails > but at least I could be looking at this scar > and be proud of it). > >> >> Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make >> several lists, for different languages. >> >> As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against >> splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must >> split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the >> people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow >> the community, the lists must split. >> >> Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and >> advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the >> others won't. >> >> -Ralph > > Stef > > |
Re: [Squeakland] Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas puso en su mail :
> We need more content that can be used for >the students profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're >trying to produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of >original material. > This semester I have and eclectic group Estimado Profesor: Aqui en la ciudad de Rosario, Argentina, tenemos un pequeño grupo para estudiar Squeak. Aunque es modesto, le ofezco los siguientes links en castellano http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/squeakRos/ SqueakRos / Grupo http://wiki.gnulinex.org/squeakros SqueakRos swiki en España http://ar.geocities.com/edgardec2001/Welcome.html SqueakRos / Tutoriales http://swiki.agro.uba.ar/small_land/ Swiki de la UBA Tambien estoy disponible para los estudiantes que necesiten ayuda remota via IRC (lo hemos usado en castellano) y para lo que necesite. Atentamente. Edgar __________________________________________________ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! ¡Abrí tu cuenta ya! - http://correo.yahoo.com.ar |
RE: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Simon Michael
It should also be added to Nabble (http://www.nabble.com). The interface there is a lot nice than GMane's IMO. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On > Behalf Of Simon Michael > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:05 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: Looking for good souls > > If you create it, please do add a gmane interface as Craig > suggested - http://squeak.joyful.com/HowToAddListsToGmane . > |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
tim Rowledge wrote:
> > On 22-Apr-06, at 12:43 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > [snip my vague and waffley bits] > >> Let me offer some ideas. >> >> We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more >> than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those >> questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by >> beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the >> question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the >> question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the >> question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are not 100 >> emails for a beginner to wade through.) >> >> The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference >> later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The Wiki is >> managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the >> question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts." >> >> Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained >> regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use >> and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, just >> give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off. >> >> We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be >> worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative. > > An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. > Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle. an email mailing list won't be too laborious to wade thru. We could still implement the Wiki idea after a question has been answered. |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Elod Kironsky
On 2006 April 24 06:49, Elod Kironsky wrote:
> Hi! > > I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm > to anybody. It is absolutely true, that > some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak > newbies and scare them away from > writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, > then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the > problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then > well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who > feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list > and place a vote wheter you would like a > squeak-newbie list or not. +1 - If such list is created I will subscribe to it. And if many on squeak-dev subscribe, I do not think it would cause a schism/split :) Milan > You can count me in of course ;-) > > Elod > > > Hi guys > > > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > > knowledge. > > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not > > invite anybody to learn and grow? > > Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? > > > > May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to > > try instead of staying with your > > certainty about life and facts. > > > > My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to > > people > > that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day > > to communicate with us. > > These are years that because of technological aspects we did not > > create such a list. > > > > > > Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via > > squeakfondation as a normal and public list > > as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in > > our cool community, or I create > > a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let > > you decide. But I will do it (you know me > > and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it > > fails but at least I could be looking at this scar > > and be proud of it). > > > >> Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make > >> several lists, for different languages. > >> > >> As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against > >> splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must > >> split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the > >> people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow > >> the community, the lists must split. > >> > >> Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and > >> advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the > >> others won't. > >> > >> -Ralph > > > > Stef |
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In reply to this post by Roel Wuyts
Hi people!
Roel Wuyts <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Stef, you can count me in to show newbies around. > > I have the same problems other *teachers* using Squeak have, and that > is that my students are afraid of this list (for various reasons). In > the past I even created local lists so that they could communicate > with me, some of my assistents, and each other. This has nothing to > do with splitting the list! The above paragraph is interesting in that obviously this *is* a problem for especially many teachers. I wasn't aware of that, and I am pretty sure most of us weren't. But it seems logical, so once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo) > A stupid but effective way to guide people to this mailing list is: > - having a clear footer that indicates that this is the new (or > whatever name) mailing list, and that talks about the 'real' mailing > list. No worries, as soon as they feel ready people will move. > - the 'teachers' on the newbie list occasionaly have to reroute > questions once they get beyod newbie questions. It is that plain and > simple. Agree. > Note that adding such list will *grow* the community, not *split* > it... How can it split when the people that will answer the newbies > still belong to the squeak-dev as well ?! Do you think that because I > am answering newbies I will no longer be interested in squeak-dev ?! > This is crazy. I also guess it will not in practice turn out harmful. Just note that one scenario (however unplausible) is that squeak-dev gets "weaker" in the sense that it misses out on all those Simple-And-Obvious-Things-That-We-Oldtimers-Don't-See-Anymore. Numerous frutiful discussions has started out with one of those "Sorry, but I just don't get it..."-questions from a complete beginner. But again, we will just see how it works. > The 'do not split the mailing-lists' discussions in the past were > said in a completely different context than for helping out newbies. > We were talking about real variations of the language (with a real > danger of splitting) or the community (the developers versus the > sunday Squeakers). That is not the way to split this mailing list. > But for helping out newbies, that is a different cause alltogether. Probably. regards, Göran |
Re: Looking for good souls
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Am 25.04.2006 um 08:02 schrieb [hidden email]:
> [...] once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo) Wouldn't the proper way of handling this the board gathering consensus and asking the list admins to create a new list? (some board members already expressed their opinions in this thread - generally in favor) - Bert - |
Re: [Squeakland] Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi offray
Excellent, I can help you. - videos: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/Videos/ - DVD: http://www.squeak.org/Download/SqueakDVD/ - free Smalltalk books: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/FreeBooks.html - my lectures http://prog2.vub.ac.be/smalltalk/news.php (we will be launching a new program soon so that all smalltalk teachers can share their lectures) You can find old slides in ppt at: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~ducasse/ Web/ArchivedLectures/ You have also http://smallwiki.unibe.ch/botsinc/ Stef On 24 avr. 06, at 15:16, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: > Hi all, > > > > Markus Gaelli wrote: > >> Hi Stef, >> >> The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) >> currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This >> is correct. >> Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit >> for education of object oriented programmers nubs. >> >> Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not >> be part of the squeakland-image? >> Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which >> beams the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching >> environment? >> >> > I even didn't know the squeak-dev image, but this last question > seems a good one. Most of the time Squeak has been oriented toward > childs, and I mean, really young childs, so what about "a system > for children of all ages"?. I'm trying to use Squeak with a pretty > eclectic groups of students in university (the only thing they > share is that all them are pregrade students) and I come to squeak > after having previous experience with Scheme and Python (that were > previous sucessfull experience with students with a more common > background and interest in "Computer Science", which I prefer to > call "Informatics"[1]). It was a pretty good thing to choose Squeak > this time, I'm proud of that choice and I will stick to it in the > future. This construction was not an easy one and is still being > made. We need more content that can be used for the students > profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to > produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of > original material. > > [1] http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/informatics.shtml > > Now we can even make a little exploration of E-toys, but my feeling > is that the time is comming when we need to start learnings and > asking questions about Smalltalk. > >> What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not >> so serious. >> >> I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of >> Squeak for and in education, and this would include both etoys >> and smalltalk. >> And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already >> lots of good souls there, who do focus on education. >> Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can >> learn a lot from the etoys paradigm. >> >> > I'm agree with this also. I think that both themes are not disjoint > and is a bridge for making "a system for children of all ages". > Sorry if this mail is taking too long, but I will try to talk more > about bridges and my previous experience teaching "Introduction to > Informatics" (anyway I read all of you a lot, so its time for > revenge :-P ) > > In that course we try to make a first exploration of informatics > from the point of view of a "first in width" instead of the > classical one (at least here), the "first in depth" (you know, the > one where the students firs encounter with informatics is > procedural structured programming, in C/C++, then Object Oriented > Programming, In Java/.Net, then Data Base, etc... and in the end of > their career studies they come with some kind of revelation and > they join the pieces and say "Ohhh this is informatics"). In our > first in width approach we try to know something about story, > social context, subfields in a panoramic way and the course then > goes to programming (because they need to being motivated and > prepared about the "now in depth" approach of the following > courses). In my previous semesters I tried to follow the path > proposed by the people of Teach Scheme Project, about: > > 1) Keep away from Machine Details (C/C++ is not enougth far from a > beginer point of view in my student and teacher experience) and > > 2) Focus on correctness instead of eficiency (focus on program > desing). > > and they key was the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple > Sintactically). Was really nice to see all the class having their > first program working and understood. And the teach scheme project > has a emphasis on learned oriented programming environments, so was > nice to see programming seeing as a "liberal art" instead of > something teached for programers by programers (in the same way > that mathematics is not only for mathematicians). To make a long > story short, then I probed python because it maintain the same > K.I.S.S. principle and will be more like the program languages they > will find or have found in the rest of ther studies. That was nice > if all the people were students of informatics but... > > This semester I have and eclectic group (the course was made an > open one), people from biology, informatics, engeenering, > nutrition, some of them are just starting their studies, some of > them were finishing them... and scheme and python were not the > solution for that group. The programming environment was > "deprived"... was something like a "wordpad with sintactical > hightlighting"... their motivations where different, so I need to > appeal to a shared cultural background this time, and computers > where nice multimedia, connected, feature rich machine for them. In > that context Squek/Smalltalk was the answer. It provides a bridge > from computers in the world to computers in the classroom, and > different people were more motivated. > > Now we need to start to make bridges from computers in the classrom > to programming as a part of a scientific discipline and even part > of life, and young children materials are not filling the gap for > my students. We need to make a bridge between our classroom and > your community... that's the reason why I'm here and I hope you > help me. > >> I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much >> faster, when they have been introduced to EToys first. >> >> > Thanks for the advice. I will try to follow it, this week. > >> Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ >> discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development >> of EToys. >> >> > I feel that few bridges between communities are making education a > mission impossible... but I have made a log mail already... > > Cheers, > > Offray > > -- > El Directorio > ------------------------------ .:| Tecnología |:. > .:| Comunidad | Libertad |:. \| Colombia |/ > ------------------------------ > www.el-directorio.org > |
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In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
[hidden email] wrote:
[...] > I also guess it will not in practice turn out harmful. Just note that > one scenario (however unplausible) is that squeak-dev gets "weaker" in > the sense that it misses out on all those > Simple-And-Obvious-Things-That-We-Oldtimers-Don't-See-Anymore. Numerous > frutiful discussions has started out with one of those "Sorry, but I > just don't get it..."-questions from a complete beginner. Quoting myself from http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-April/102982.html Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. Possible? Desirable? ... Sean McGrath |
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
I like this idea (for whatever my opinion may be worth). -Dean
[hidden email] wrote: [...] > I also guess it will not in practice turn out harmful. Just note that > one scenario (however unplausible) is that squeak-dev gets "weaker" in > the sense that it misses out on all those > Simple-And-Obvious-Things-That-We-Oldtimers-Don't-See-Anymore. Numerous > frutiful discussions has started out with one of those "Sorry, but I > just don't get it..."-questions from a complete beginner. Quoting myself from http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-April/102982.html Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. Possible? Desirable? ... Sean McGrath |
Board roles (was Re: Looking for good souls)
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg-3
Hi Bert and all!
Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > Am 25.04.2006 um 08:02 schrieb [hidden email]: > > [...] once more: create the darn list. :) (still not seeing it on > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo) > > Wouldn't the proper way of handling this the board gathering > consensus and asking the list admins to create a new list? Sure. :) Or even more effectively: the person having the delegated responsibility of taking care of lists just takes the decision himself. Not sure if that role is set though, but I would guess Marcus. But that is of course your ballgame since I am not on the board :). My advice (after having been on the board) is to use delegation extensively inside the board - and to publish those "roles" on squeak.org (the Team page there is great, having an equally distinct "board roles" page would be dandy IMHO). Again, just constructive advice. :) Seeking board concensus was in my experience a very hard thing to do because people are so busy from time to time. A good example here is the fact that Craig is Team boss today (after Ken) - one of the delegated roles that the current board "inherited" from the old board. But how many people are aware of this? IIRC Craig got editing capability of the Team page - please enter that info at the top. Or better - add the "board roles" page I blabbered about above. :) regards, Göran |
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In reply to this post by Sean McGrath-2
Sean McGrath <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it > were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, Ehm... that would sortof defeat the purpose of having a list that newbies *dare* posting to because of the intimidation factor in posting to the large and rather knowledgeable squeak-dev list, right? regards, Göran |
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On 4/26/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not really. People usually decide to join a list after looking at the archive. THey would look at the "help" archives and see lots of questions, followed by good answers. They would say "this looks like a good place for me to ask my questions", and they would have no idea how many people are actually reading the list. People can't tell how many other people are on a list, they can only judge the traffic. squeak-dev has enough traffic to intimidate most people. It also has a lot of topics that seem esoteric to a newcomer. Splicing "help" traffic into squeak-dev would not make either of these things happen to the "help" list. My only concern is that splicing the lists together would require someone to do some work, and I don't want to wait around until it happens, because things like that can be low priority and take a long time to get done. I'd like to see the newbie list created ASAP and then for someone to splice them together "soon". -Ralph Johnson |
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Hi!
"Ralph Johnson" <[hidden email]> wrote: > On 4/26/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Ehm... that would sortof defeat the purpose of having a list that > > newbies *dare* posting to because of the intimidation factor in posting > > to the large and rather knowledgeable squeak-dev list, right? > > Not really. People usually decide to join a list after looking at the > archive. THey would look at the "help" archives and see lots of questions, > followed by good answers. They would say "this looks like a good place for > me to ask my questions", and they would have no idea how many people are > actually reading the list. Yes, you are probably right. > My only concern is that splicing the lists together would require someone to > do some work, and I don't want to wait around until it happens, because > things like that can be low priority and take a long time to get done. I'd > like to see the newbie list created ASAP and then for someone to splice the= > together "soon". > > -Ralph Johnson Agree. I assume we have exhausted this subject by now and that the board (through the box admins) just creates the list. ;) regards, Göran |
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