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Sean P. DeNigris

Menu navigation

Administrator

It seems that the world menu navigation is not as usable as that of Squeak.

For example, to go to full screen mode:
Squeak: click -> move down -> click -> move down -> click
Pharo: click -> move down -> move right -> click -> move down -> click

What is the advantage of this way?

Sean

Cheers,
Sean

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: Menu navigation

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

It seems that the world menu navigation is not as usable as that of Squeak.

For example, to go to full screen mode:
Squeak: click -> move down -> click -> move down -> click
Pharo: click -> move down -> move right -> click -> move down -> click

I would be more detailed. Why don't you say the menu labels instead of move xxx ?
I have ever seen full screen.

What is the advantage of this way?

I have no idea. What I do am aware of is that we want clean and short menus for Pharo. Having looong list menus is unconfortable to work with. How frequently do you use that option ? how many people use that ?
Cheers

Mariano

Sean
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Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Menu navigation

Administrator

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote

I would be more detailed. Why don't you say the menu labels instead of move
xxx ?

> What is the advantage of this way?

I have no idea. What I do am aware of is that we want clean and short menus
for Pharo. Having looong list menus is unconfortable to work with. How
frequently do you use that option ? how many people use that ?

I put the user movements to emphasize the greater amount and variety of effort required (not thinking of readers reproducing the steps :( ).
System -> Preferences... -> Full screen on

My point, which you clarified for me, is more that the way submenus appear in Squeak seems to flow better i.e. when you want to open a submenu, you click on it and it replaces the outer menu in the same place vertically so you can just continue to move down, as opposed to hovering, moving to the right (which breaks the 'moving down' flow, and navigating the submenu.

Maybe they could coexist, since clicking on a menu item with a submenu doesn't seem to do anything useful now?

Cheers,
Sean

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Menu navigation

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

in 1.1 this is even more complex :)
because you have to use the default setting browser.
Now sean as mariano mentioned it if some behavior are really used all time then we will change to
make them easier to use.
What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to setup your image the exact way you want.
In 1.1 I would like to change the Code recovering subsub list. This is too deep.
I tried and broke it so I should retry.

Stef

On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

>
> It seems that the world menu navigation is not as usable as that of Squeak.
>
> For example, to go to full screen mode:
> Squeak: click -> move down -> click -> move down -> click
> Pharo: click -> move down -> move right -> click -> move down -> click
>
> What is the advantage of this way?
>
> Sean
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> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Menu-navigation-tp1754368p1754368.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Menu navigation

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

>
> I put the user movements to emphasize the greater amount and variety of
> effort required (not thinking of readers reproducing the steps :( ).
> System -> Preferences... -> Full screen on
>
> My point, which you clarified for me, is more that the way submenus appear
> in Squeak seems to flow better i.e. when you want to open a submenu, you
> click on it and it replaces the outer menu in the same place vertically so
> you can just continue to move down, as opposed to hovering, moving to the
> right (which breaks the 'moving down' flow, and navigating the submenu.

ok I see what you mean

> Maybe they could coexist, since clicking on a menu item with a submenu
> doesn't seem to do anything useful now?

Yes this is probably a good suggestion.
But if we click on a menu with a submenu what should happen?
The menu on the right should slide and replace the current one.
I have the impression that may be the theme should be able to implement thes two different
behavior separated.

> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Menu-navigation-tp1754368p1754402.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Menu navigation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Stéphane Ducasse wrote

Now sean as mariano mentioned it if some behavior are really used all time then we will change to
make them easier to use.

I appreciate that - my purpose was about the general flow of sub-menus, rather than that specific one, which I used as an example (but which I happen to use every time I open the image because, in full screen mode, Pharo (and Squeak) opens on the primary display instead of the display it was last used/saved on)

Stéphane Ducasse wrote

What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to setup your image the exact way you want.

Cool, I'll try that. Is there a good place to look for info on how to do that?

Stéphane Ducasse wrote

In 1.1 I would like to change the Code recovering subsub list. This is too deep.
I tried and broke it so I should retry.

This part went right over my head :)

Sean

Cheers,
Sean

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Menu navigation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Stéphane Ducasse wrote

> Maybe they could coexist, since clicking on a menu item with a submenu
> doesn't seem to do anything useful now?

Yes this is probably a good suggestion.
But if we click on a menu with a submenu what should happen?
The menu on the right should slide and replace the current one.
I have the impression that may be the theme should be able to implement thes two different
behavior separated.

I think the sliding behavior could be the best of both worlds. Now that I think about that, the current implementation is definitely superior for searching for unknown menu options - in Squeak, when you click on an item with a sub-menu, the original menu disappears, so you have to start over if it's not what you wanted. The behavior I'm suggesting seems to work better when you already know exactly where you're going.

Sean

Cheers,
Sean

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: Menu navigation

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

Sean: As far as I understand, part of the new improvements of the Pharo 1.1 architecture will make this kind of things easier:

1) We completely removed Preferences class. It was a mess and with million of dependencies, difficult to extend, etc. Now, in Pharo 1.1 we have a new Setting framework where each package can define using metadata (pragmas) their own settings. Then, this Setting framework will scan the pragmas and build the Setting browser according to that.

2) We changed the way the menu registration works. Now it is easier to change the menu, without needing to hack inside the core code. I think it is also done using pragmas.

For both incredible works, you have to thanks Alain :)

Cheers

Mariano

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
> Now sean as mariano mentioned it if some behavior are really used all time
> then we will change to
> make them easier to use.
>

I appreciate that - my purpose was about the general flow of sub-menus,
rather than that specific one, which I used as an example (but which I
happen to use every time I open the image because, in full screen mode,
Pharo (and Squeak) opens on the primary display instead of the display it
was last used/saved on)

Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
> What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to setup
> your image the exact way you want.
>

Cool, I'll try that. Is there a good place to look for info on how to do
that?

Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
> In 1.1 I would like to change the Code recovering subsub list. This is too
> deep.
> I tried and broke it so I should retry.
>

This part went right over my head :)

Sean
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View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Menu-navigation-tp1754368p1754453.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Menu navigation

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

I know that people around me use Setup something....
so probably somebody will mention it to you.

>>
>> What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to setup
>> your image the exact way you want.
>>
> Cool, I'll try that. Is there a good place to look for info on how to do
> that?

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Tudor Girba

Re: Menu navigation

Try this one:

Gofer new
squeaksource: 'setup';
package: 'Setup';
load.

Cheers,
Doru

On 7 Apr 2010, at 17:55, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> I know that people around me use Setup something....
> so probably somebody will mention it to you.
>
>
>>>
>>> What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to
>>> setup
>>> your image the exact way you want.
>>>
>> Cool, I'll try that. Is there a good place to look for info on how
>> to do
>> that?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Menu navigation

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

thanks, found it :)

Sean DeNigris
[hidden email]

On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Stéphane Ducasse [via Smalltalk] wrote:

I know that people around me use Setup something....
so probably somebody will mention it to you.

>>
>> What you can also do is to define a Script to do it for you and to setup
>> your image the exact way you want.
>>
> Cool, I'll try that. Is there a good place to look for info on how to do
> that?

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Cheers,
Sean