Metacello - the missing information??
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Metacello - the missing information??
 
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For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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The closest thing
I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of
baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there
should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait
they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the
baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. My question stands. Bill
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities.
Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. And then: GTProfStef open (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) Cheers
Laurent Laffont
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith: After all of: Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion. ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. ________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline. ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. And then: GTProfStef open (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) Cheers Laurent Laffont My question stands. Bill ________________________________ From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? Ok, now I think I got what you meant with your question. This question is difficult to answer as it doesn't depends on Metacello. If you want to know which version exactly to load of a particular project, then you need to know about that project or ask the developers/maintainers. It is not a Metacello responsibility. If the person who writes the Configuration is cool, it will put the whole changes/changelog in the #description: of the version method. So that you can at least read it. On the other hand, there are also the blessings. For example, if you are just a user, I would download the last stable release. You can choose also the last beta, or whatever. If you are a developer, you may want to download the latest, even if it is in development. For all these cases, Metacello helps you with methods like lastVersion, etc. Finally, as I said, it doesn't depends too much in the tool. The same question you ask, apply to Universes, SqueakMap or whatever. In all of them you have different versions. And which version to load depends on the project and on the user (what do you want to do with it). Cheers Mariano There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Mariano,
You indeed seem to have realized what is bothering
me. #latestVersion is helpful if it can be reasonably followed with #load
- the examples that exist suggest otherwise. Even following the
instructions to load the tutorial lead to a walkback, and prior to that, no
evidence of methods that are mentioned in what little is
online.
We can talk about what is and is not Metacello's
responsibilty, but the result as a whole is currently too fragile for its own
good. Sorry, I know that will sting a bit for people working hard on this,
but it needs either a central repository of version data (and/or additional
expectations of the configuration classes), and it certainly needs better
factoring.
I am looking for
Metacello loadLatestOf:'Seaside28'
from:'here.there.org'.
Failing that, add a Pharo version string to get the
latest for it. This is too complicated at
present.
For my own sanity, I have Monticello "load
latest" capability, which all I need for my own code. Picture
100 or so packages that have to get saved from one image and loaded into the
next - newer is bettter, end of story. I am trying to find a way to make a
stable interface to Metacello for external packages, but for now it all looks
like a moving target.
Bill
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:01 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? Ok, now I think I got what you meant with your question. This question is difficult to answer as it doesn't depends on Metacello. If you want to know which version exactly to load of a particular project, then you need to know about that project or ask the developers/maintainers. It is not a Metacello responsibility. If the person who writes the Configuration is cool, it will put the whole changes/changelog in the #description: of the version method. So that you can at least read it. On the other hand, there are also the blessings. For example, if you are just a user, I would download the last stable release. You can choose also the last beta, or whatever. If you are a developer, you may want to download the latest, even if it is in development. For all these cases, Metacello helps you with methods like lastVersion, etc. Finally, as I said, it doesn't depends too much in the tool. The same question you ask, apply to Universes, SqueakMap or whatever. In all of them you have different versions. And which version to load depends on the project and on the user (what do you want to do with it). Cheers Mariano There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Hi,
This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments. Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives > > DNU #goOn:viewedWith: > > After all of: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion. > > ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). > > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > > ________________________________________ > From: [hidden email] [[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >> > The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as > intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in > fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class > for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid > duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline. > > ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a > table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane > shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing > a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are > difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been > able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more > helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, > then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. > > Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as > ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) > capabilities. > Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > > And then: > GTProfStef open > > (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) > > Cheers > > Laurent Laffont > > > My question stands. > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM > To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to > load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what > happens for things not listed there? > > > You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I > added the link to the tutorial. > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "When people care, great things can happen." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository.
-----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Hi, This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments. Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives > > DNU #goOn:viewedWith: > > After all of: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion. > > ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). > > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > > ________________________________________ > From: [hidden email] > [[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K > <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >> > The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as > intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact > how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all > configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate > code) and a method that loads the baseline. > > ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a > table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane > shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a > lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, > we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure > out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely > to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some > benefit in the form of interaction. > > Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as > ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) > capabilities. > Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > > And then: > GTProfStef open > > (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) > > Cheers > > Laurent Laffont > > > My question stands. > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > From: > [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project-bounc > [hidden email] > > > >[mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo-proj > >[hidden email] > >] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM > To: > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]. > inria.fr > > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? > There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for > things not listed there? > > > You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I > added the link to the tutorial. > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "When people care, great things can happen." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Hi,
I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but > if this is to work we must have either self-describing > configurations or a central repository. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > Hi, > > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to > cope with the latest developments. > > Cheers, > Doru > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives >> >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: >> >> After all of: >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: >> #loadLatestVersion. >> >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). >> >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: [hidden email] >> [[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? >> >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>>> >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in >> fact >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. >> >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than >> forcing a >> lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are >> difficult, >> we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to >> figure >> out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more >> likely >> to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be >> some >> benefit in the form of interaction. >> >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) >> capabilities. >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. >> >> And then: >> GTProfStef open >> >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) >> >> Cheers >> >> Laurent Laffont >> >> >> My question stands. >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- >> bounc >> [hidden email] >>> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- >>> proj >>> [hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM >> To: >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >> [hidden email]. >> inria.fr >>> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens >> for >> things not listed there? >> >> >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I >> added the link to the tutorial. >> >> Bill >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "When people care, great things can happen." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Doru,
This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Hi, I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if > this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or > a central repository. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > Hi, > > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to > cope with the latest developments. > > Cheers, > Doru > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives >> >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: >> >> After all of: >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: >> #loadLatestVersion. >> >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). >> >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: [hidden email] >> [[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? >> >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>>> >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in >> fact >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. >> >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than >> forcing a >> lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are >> difficult, >> we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to >> figure >> out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more >> likely >> to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be >> some >> benefit in the form of interaction. >> >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) >> capabilities. >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; >> load. >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. >> >> And then: >> GTProfStef open >> >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) >> >> Cheers >> >> Laurent Laffont >> >> >> My question stands. >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- >> bounc >> [hidden email] >>> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- >>> proj >>> [hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM >> To: >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >> [hidden email]. >> inria.fr >>> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens >> for >> things not listed there? >> >> >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I >> added the link to the tutorial. >> >> Bill >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "When people care, great things can happen." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill,
This has been discussed before and there is development underway for Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be hit:) Dale ----- "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote: | Doru, | | This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but | briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified | and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest | of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various | multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should | comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there | for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme | would benefit from some additional behavior. | | Bill | | | -----Original Message----- | From: [hidden email] | [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of | Tudor Girba | Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM | To: [hidden email] | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | | Hi, | | I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving | target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". | | Cheers, | Doru | | | On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | | > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but | if | > this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations | or | > a central repository. | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: [hidden email] | [mailto:[hidden email] | > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba | > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM | > To: [hidden email] | > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | > | > Hi, | > | > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, | | > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the | > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to | | > cope with the latest developments. | > | > Cheers, | > Doru | > | > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | > | >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives | >> | >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: | >> | >> After all of: | >> | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; | >> load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: | >> #loadLatestVersion. | >> | >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: | #('Tutorial'). | >> | >> | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | >> load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. | >> | >> ________________________________________ | >> From: [hidden email] | >> [[hidden email] | >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] | >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM | >> To: [hidden email] | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | >> | >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K | >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] | >>>> | >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as | >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in | | >> fact | >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for | all | >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid | duplicate | >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. | >> | >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a | >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane | >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than | >> forcing a | >> lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are | >> difficult, | >> we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to | >> figure | >> out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more | >> likely | >> to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be | | >> some | >> benefit in the form of interaction. | >> | >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as | >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) | >> capabilities. | >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | >> load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. | >> | >> And then: | >> GTProfStef open | >> | >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) | >> | >> Cheers | >> | >> Laurent Laffont | >> | >> | >> My question stands. | >> | >> Bill | >> | >> | >> ________________________________ | >> From: | >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- | >> bounc | >> [hidden email] | >>> | >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- | | >>> proj | >>> [hidden email] | >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck | >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM | >> To: | >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- | >> [hidden email]. | >> inria.fr | >>> | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | >> | >> | >> | >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K | >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: | >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to | load? | >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens | | >> for | >> things not listed there? | >> | >> | >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I | >> added the link to the tutorial. | >> | >> Bill | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] | >>> | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | >> | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] | >>> | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | >> | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> [hidden email] | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | > | > -- | > www.tudorgirba.com | > | > "When people care, great things can happen." | > | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Pharo-project mailing list | > [hidden email] | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Pharo-project mailing list | > [hidden email] | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | -- | www.tudorgirba.com | | "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at | them." | | | | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Dale,
That's fair. Is loader aimed at the producers of configurations, or is it only about scripting the load/cusumer side? Every time I think I have a generic solution for loading them, I find something else that does not quite fit. If you can do it all from the existing configurations, more power to you - I enjoy being wrong about things like that :) Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Henrichs Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:58 PM To: [hidden email] Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Bill, This has been discussed before and there is development underway for Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be hit:) Dale ----- "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote: | Doru, | | This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but | briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified | and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest | of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various | multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should | comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there | for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme | would benefit from some additional behavior. | | Bill | | | -----Original Message----- | From: [hidden email] | [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of | Tudor Girba | Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM | To: [hidden email] | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | | Hi, | | I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving | target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". | | Cheers, | Doru | | | On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | | > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but | if | > this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations | or | > a central repository. | > | > | > | > | > | > -----Original Message----- | > From: [hidden email] | [mailto:[hidden email] | > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba | > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM | > To: [hidden email] | > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | > | > Hi, | > | > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, | | > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the | > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to | | > cope with the latest developments. | > | > Cheers, | > Doru | > | > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | > | >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives | >> | >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: | >> | >> After all of: | >> | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: | >> #loadLatestVersion. | >> | >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: | #('Tutorial'). | >> | >> | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | >> load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. | >> | >> ________________________________________ | >> From: [hidden email] | >> [[hidden email] | >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] | >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM | >> To: [hidden email] | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | >> | >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K | >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] | >>>> | >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as | >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in | | >> fact | >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for | all | >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid | duplicate | >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. | >> | >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a | >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane | >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than | >> forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things | >> are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have | >> been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more | >> helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of | >> code, then there should be | | >> some | >> benefit in the form of interaction. | >> | >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as | >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) | >> capabilities. | >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: | >> Gofer new | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | >> load. | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. | >> | >> And then: | >> GTProfStef open | >> | >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) | >> | >> Cheers | >> | >> Laurent Laffont | >> | >> | >> My question stands. | >> | >> Bill | >> | >> | >> ________________________________ | >> From: | >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- | >> bounc | >> [hidden email] | >>> | >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- | | >>> proj | >>> [hidden email] | >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck | >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM | >> To: | >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- | >> [hidden email]. | >> inria.fr | >>> | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | >> | >> | >> | >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K | >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: | >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to | load? | >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens | | >> for | >> things not listed there? | >> | >> | >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I | >> added the link to the tutorial. | >> | >> Bill | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]. | inria.fr | >>> | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | >> | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]. | inria.fr | >>> | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | >> | >> | >> _______________________________________________ | >> Pharo-project mailing list | >> [hidden email] | >> | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | > | > -- | > www.tudorgirba.com | > | > "When people care, great things can happen." | > | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Pharo-project mailing list | > [hidden email] | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Pharo-project mailing list | > [hidden email] | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | -- | www.tudorgirba.com | | "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." | | | | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill,
I think that loader is aimed at the consumer side of things ... it looks to be aimed at being the Gofer of Metacello ... so easy scripting is the target. In my mind there are 3 areas where Metacello has need for immediate support: browsing scripting searching Doru's Metaceller is aimed at browsing and does give one a good picture of what is going on with an existing image. Metaceller is under development but can be taken for a spin (http://groups.google.com/group/metacello/browse_frm/thread/335b8177a7b82b5e?hl=en#) Esteban Lorenzano is working on Loader which is aimed at scripting Metacello tasks. Esteban is still working on Loader, so it's not quite ready for use. Searching is a subject that has only been talked about (see http://groups.google.com/group/metacello/browse_frm/thread/92c3a31178ae4a12?hl=en#). With 60 configurations and counting we'll soon need better searching tools. Dale ----- "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote: | Dale, | | That's fair. Is loader aimed at the producers of configurations, or | is it only about scripting the load/cusumer side? Every time I think | I have a generic solution for loading them, I find something else that | does not quite fit. If you can do it all from the existing | configurations, more power to you - I enjoy being wrong about things | like that :) | | Bill | | | | -----Original Message----- | From: [hidden email] | [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale | Henrichs | Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:58 PM | To: [hidden email] | Cc: [hidden email] | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | | Bill, | | This has been discussed before and there is development underway for | Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You | are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be | hit:) | | Dale | | ----- "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote: | | | Doru, | | | | This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but | | briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified | | | and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the | interest | | of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the | various | | multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should | | comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us | there | | for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme | | would benefit from some additional behavior. | | | | Bill | | | | | | -----Original Message----- | | From: [hidden email] | | [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of | | Tudor Girba | | Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM | | To: [hidden email] | | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? | | | | Hi, | | | | I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving | | | target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". | | | | Cheers, | | Doru | | | | | | On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | | | | > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, | but | | if | | > this is to work we must have either self-describing | configurations | | or | | > a central repository. | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > -----Original Message----- | | > From: [hidden email] | | [mailto:[hidden email] | | > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba | | > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM | | > To: [hidden email] | | > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing | information?? | | > | | > Hi, | | > | | > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get | it, | | | | > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the | | > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef | to | | | | > cope with the latest developments. | | > | | > Cheers, | | > Doru | | > | | > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | | > | | >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives | | >> | | >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: | | >> | | >> After all of: | | >> | | >> Gofer new | | >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; | | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. | | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: | | >> #loadLatestVersion. | | >> | | >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: | | #('Tutorial'). | | >> | | >> | | >> Gofer new | | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | | >> load. | | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: | #loadDefault. | | >> | | >> ________________________________________ | | >> From: [hidden email] | | >> [[hidden email] | | >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] | | >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM | | >> To: [hidden email] | | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing | information?? | | >> | | >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K | | >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] | | >>>> | | >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working | as | | >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is | in | | | | >> fact | | >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for | | all | | >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid | | duplicate | | >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. | | >> | | >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: | a | | >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ | pane | | >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than | | >> forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things | | | >> are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have | | | >> been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be | more | | >> helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of | | >> code, then there should be | | | | >> some | | >> benefit in the form of interaction. | | >> | | >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository | as | | >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) | | | >> capabilities. | | >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: | | >> Gofer new | | >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; | | >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; | | >> load. | | >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: | #loadDefault. | | >> | | >> And then: | | >> GTProfStef open | | >> | | >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) | | >> | | >> Cheers | | >> | | >> Laurent Laffont | | >> | | >> | | >> My question stands. | | >> | | >> Bill | | >> | | >> | | >> ________________________________ | | >> From: | | >> | [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- | | >> bounc | | >> [hidden email] | | >>> | | >>> | [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- | | | | >>> proj | | >>> [hidden email] | | >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck | | >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM | | >> To: | | >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- | | >> [hidden email]. | | >> inria.fr | | >>> | | >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing | information?? | | >> | | >> | | >> | | >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K | | >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: | | >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to | | load? | | >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what | happens | | | | >> for | | >> things not listed there? | | >> | | >> | | >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I | | >> added the link to the tutorial. | | >> | | >> Bill | | >> | | >> _______________________________________________ | | >> Pharo-project mailing list | | >> | | | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]. | | inria.fr | | >>> | | >> | | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | >> | | >> | | >> _______________________________________________ | | >> Pharo-project mailing list | | >> | | | [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]. | | inria.fr | | >>> | | >> | | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | >> | | >> | | >> _______________________________________________ | | >> Pharo-project mailing list | | >> [hidden email] | | >> | | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | > | | > -- | | > www.tudorgirba.com | | > | | > "When people care, great things can happen." | | > | | > | | > | | > | | > _______________________________________________ | | > Pharo-project mailing list | | > [hidden email] | | > | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | > | | > _______________________________________________ | | > Pharo-project mailing list | | > [hidden email] | | > | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | | | -- | | www.tudorgirba.com | | | | "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at | them." | | | | | | | | | | _______________________________________________ | | Pharo-project mailing list | | [hidden email] | | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | | | _______________________________________________ | | Pharo-project mailing list | | [hidden email] | | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
El dom, 07-02-2010 a las 15:17 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:
> Doru, > > This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior. > Bill, one more time, that is not the task of Metacello. Metacello just keeps record of stable, released, working sets of packages versions that make a reproducible, working installation of a given software. Isn't meant to be used as a friendly tool for end users, *but* as a flexible tool for configurations maintainers. As you already know, there are tools being worked (Loader) that are *aimed* at end users and have listing capabilities as you want. Please, read this thread: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-January/019090.html Cheers > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > Hi, > > I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if > > this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or > > a central repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba > > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM > > To: [hidden email] > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > > > Hi, > > > > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, > > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the > > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to > > cope with the latest developments. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > > >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives > >> > >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: > >> > >> After all of: > >> > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; > >> load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: > >> #loadLatestVersion. > >> > >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). > >> > >> > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > >> load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: [hidden email] > >> [[hidden email] > >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] > >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM > >> To: [hidden email] > >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > >> > >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K > >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>>> > >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as > >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in > >> fact > >> how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all > >> configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate > >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. > >> > >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a > >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane > >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than > >> forcing a > >> lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are > >> difficult, > >> we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to > >> figure > >> out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more > >> likely > >> to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be > >> some > >> benefit in the form of interaction. > >> > >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as > >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) > >> capabilities. > >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > >> load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > >> > >> And then: > >> GTProfStef open > >> > >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Laurent Laffont > >> > >> > >> My question stands. > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: > >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- > >> bounc > >> [hidden email] > >>> > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- > >>> proj > >>> [hidden email] > >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM > >> To: > >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- > >> [hidden email]. > >> inria.fr > >>> > >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K > >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? > >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens > >> for > >> things not listed there? > >> > >> > >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I > >> added the link to the tutorial. > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "When people care, great things can happen." > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Doru,
I urge you to not blame the customer. You can hear it from me, or you can hear it from others later. Hopefully Loader will prevent the latter. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:45 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? El dom, 07-02-2010 a las 15:17 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió: > Doru, > > This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior. > Bill, one more time, that is not the task of Metacello. Metacello just keeps record of stable, released, working sets of packages versions that make a reproducible, working installation of a given software. Isn't meant to be used as a friendly tool for end users, *but* as a flexible tool for configurations maintainers. As you already know, there are tools being worked (Loader) that are *aimed* at end users and have listing capabilities as you want. Please, read this thread: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-January/019090.html Cheers > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Tudor Girba > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > Hi, > > I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > > As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but > > if this is to work we must have either self-describing > > configurations or a central repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email] > > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba > > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM > > To: [hidden email] > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > > > > Hi, > > > > This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, > > you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the > > latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to > > cope with the latest developments. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > > >> In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives > >> > >> DNU #goOn:viewedWith: > >> > >> After all of: > >> > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: > >> #loadLatestVersion. > >> > >> ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). > >> > >> > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > >> load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: [hidden email] > >> [[hidden email] > >> ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [[hidden email]] > >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM > >> To: [hidden email] > >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > >> > >> 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K > >> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>>> > >> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as > >> intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in > >> fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class > >> for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid > >> duplicate > >> code) and a method that loads the baseline. > >> > >> ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a > >> table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane > >> shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than > >> forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things > >> are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have > >> been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more > >> helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of > >> code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. > >> > >> Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as > >> ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) > >> capabilities. > >> Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: > >> Gofer new > >> squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; > >> package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; > >> load. > >> (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. > >> > >> And then: > >> GTProfStef open > >> > >> (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Laurent Laffont > >> > >> > >> My question stands. > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: > >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- > >> bounc > >> [hidden email] > >>> > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- > >>> proj > >>> [hidden email] > >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM > >> To: > >> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- > >> [hidden email]. > >> inria.fr > >>> > >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K > >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >> For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? > >> There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens > >> for things not listed there? > >> > >> > >> You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I > >> added the link to the tutorial. > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >>> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "When people care, great things can happen." > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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In reply to this post by Dale
On 07.02.2010 21:57, Dale Henrichs wrote:
> Bill, > > This has been discussed before and there is development underway for Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be hit:) > > Dale > Speaking of missing information, personally I'd really like to see some class comments :) (Think I found a single one last time I loaded Metacello) Cheers, Henry _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Henrik,
Ahhh, comments ... when I get a comment compiler, I will write comments along with the code... With that said, you are correct that there are missing comments and writing comments _is_ on my todo list. If anyone is interested in taking a crack at writing comments for Metacello (before I get to it), then I would be willing to read and correct them. Dale ----- "Henrik Sperre Johansen" <[hidden email]> wrote: | On 07.02.2010 21:57, Dale Henrichs wrote: | > Bill, | > | > This has been discussed before and there is development underway for | Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You | are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be | hit:) | > | > Dale | > | Speaking of missing information, personally I'd really like to see | some | class comments :) (Think I found a single one last time I loaded | Metacello) | | Cheers, | Henry | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Metacello - the missing information??
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Dale,
IMHO, class comments would be far less important than helpful entry points and/or a brain dead simple façade interface to the whole thing (call it Loader or whatever else you care to provide). As a could/should-be beta tester of Pharo, I don't so much care how Metacello works as how I am expected to use it. In my own code, I sometimes write class comments, but what I do a LOT is comment inside methods, tagging them with mm-yy[*]. In porting some code to Pharo, I was saved in a big way by some comments from several years ago. There were some long-standing (and previously undetected) bugs in it, and I would have had a hard time fixing them w/o those comments. Bill [*] yes, I use two-digit years for it - shoot me, perferably before 2093 or so when the dates will start to be become ambiguous<g> -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Henrichs Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:50 PM To: [hidden email] Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Henrik, Ahhh, comments ... when I get a comment compiler, I will write comments along with the code... With that said, you are correct that there are missing comments and writing comments _is_ on my todo list. If anyone is interested in taking a crack at writing comments for Metacello (before I get to it), then I would be willing to read and correct them. Dale ----- "Henrik Sperre Johansen" <[hidden email]> wrote: | On 07.02.2010 21:57, Dale Henrichs wrote: | > Bill, | > | > This has been discussed before and there is development underway for | Loader which is aimed at providing a scripting API for Metacello. You | are hitting the nail on the head, but the nail isn't quite ready to be | hit:) | > | > Dale | > | Speaking of missing information, personally I'd really like to see | some class comments :) (Think I found a single one last time I loaded | Metacello) | | Cheers, | Henry | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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