Metacellobrowser feedback

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Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry
Hi all,

I'd like to give a bit of feeback on the metacello browser. First some context: I am aware of the core concepts of configuration management, but because of lack of time I never got to learn Metacello. So I thought this browser would be ideal for me, I gave it a go, and I'd like to report on my experience.

The first try did not work at all for me, because I started with a configuration that is too complex. So lets start with the second try, something simpler, and first get that sorted out before we do the complex one. Here we go: I have a SqueakSource project TraitsApplication with one package TraitsApplication which contains TraitsApplication and TraitsApplication-Tests categories (and the former contains a TraitsApplication class :-P ). Following the prompts in the browser I was able to make a configuration and save it to SqueakSource, without any real problems. So the cool thing is, I made my first Metacello config today and it even works :-)

One issue is how to load my creation. I am used to a big do-it that gets the config via Gofer and contains '(Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFoo) perform: #loadDefault'. Many configs do it like this, as a user I considered it a standard convention. But this turns out not to work, because no loadDefault has been defined. Perchance I remembered how I had to load MetacelloBrowser '(ConfigurationOfMetacelloBrowser project version: #stable) load' and adapting it to TraitsApplication (not forgetting version:#development) made it to work. So, the question: why is there no #loadDefault generated, nor an obvious way to specify what the default should be? (At least for simple cases of the configuration, like this one)

The second issue is the UI. It is confusing at times, there are multiple issues and I list them in random order
- Why can I not click on '+Configuration' when there is no configuration selected in the left hand side?
- What do the unit-test icons at the left of the configs and baselines-versions-... mean? I turn them green by double-clicking on them, which also gets me an inspector on an empty collection. Huh?
- The context menu is too big and confusing. It should be subdivided and ordered by group. Submenus are in order I think.
- What are groups? The help menu does not enlighten me.

Next up: making a config for AspectMaps (the first thing I tried and that did not work). But this is for another day ...
--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile




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Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

Dale Henrichs
Johan,

Thanks for the excellent feedback ... You have touched on some issues
that I am aware of and appreciate your suggestions ... you have also
touched on some issues that I hadn't thought about ...

I want to let your feedback marinate a bit ... you have provided enough
detail that I think I understand where the improvements are needed, but
I'm not sure I know the right way to address them ... yet.

Please continue to let us know about your learning adventure:)

Dale

On 04/22/2011 02:36 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to give a bit of feeback on the metacello browser. First
> some context: I am aware of the core concepts of configuration
> management, but because of lack of time I never got to learn
> Metacello. So I thought this browser would be ideal for me, I gave it
> a go, and I'd like to report on my experience.
>
> The first try did not work at all for me, because I started with a
> configuration that is too complex. So lets start with the second try,
> something simpler, and first get that sorted out before we do the
> complex one. Here we go: I have a SqueakSource project
> TraitsApplication with one package TraitsApplication which contains
> TraitsApplication and TraitsApplication-Tests categories (and the
> former contains a TraitsApplication class :-P ). Following the
> prompts in the browser I was able to make a configuration and save it
> to SqueakSource, without any real problems. So the cool thing is, I
> made my first Metacello config today and it even works :-)
>
> One issue is how to load my creation. I am used to a big do-it that
> gets the config via Gofer and contains '(Smalltalk at:
> #ConfigurationOfFoo) perform: #loadDefault'. Many configs do it like
> this, as a user I considered it a standard convention. But this turns
> out not to work, because no loadDefault has been defined. Perchance I
> remembered how I had to load MetacelloBrowser
> '(ConfigurationOfMetacelloBrowser project version: #stable) load' and
> adapting it to TraitsApplication (not forgetting
> version:#development) made it to work. So, the question: why is there
> no #loadDefault generated, nor an obvious way to specify what the
> default should be? (At least for simple cases of the configuration,
> like this one)
>
> The second issue is the UI. It is confusing at times, there are
> multiple issues and I list them in random order - Why can I not click
> on '+Configuration' when there is no configuration selected in the
> left hand side? - What do the unit-test icons at the left of the
> configs and baselines-versions-... mean? I turn them green by
> double-clicking on them, which also gets me an inspector on an empty
> collection. Huh? - The context menu is too big and confusing. It
> should be subdivided and ordered by group. Submenus are in order I
> think. - What are groups? The help menu does not enlighten me.
>
> Next up: making a config for AspectMaps (the first thing I tried and
> that did not work). But this is for another day ... -- Johan Fabry
> [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD Lab -
> Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
>
>
>


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Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry
Hi Dale,

my pleasure :-)

In the mean time could you satisfy my curiosity, and tell me what the unit-test icons at the left of the configs and baselines-versions-... mean? (Idem for groups?)

Thanks in advance :-)

On 22 Apr 2011, at 16:53, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> Johan,
>
> Thanks for the excellent feedback ... You have touched on some issues that I am aware of and appreciate your suggestions ... you have also touched on some issues that I hadn't thought about ...
>
> I want to let your feedback marinate a bit ... you have provided enough detail that I think I understand where the improvements are needed, but I'm not sure I know the right way to address them ... yet.
>
> Please continue to let us know about your learning adventure:)
>
> Dale

--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile




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Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

Dale Henrichs
No problem ... the icons are there to indicate the validation status ..
When you select the 'validate' menu item, each of the versions is
validated and the icon is green if there are no issues or red/orange if
there are issues. clicking on the icon will return the list of
validation issues ...

I put this feature in early on, because I was validating a bunch of
configurations and I needed to be able to tell which versions had issues...

In recent weeks I have wondered if I should drop them altogether and
then I run into a validation problem and am glad that they are there:)

Right now I think that if they are to stay, they should be automatically
updated (in which case we could drop a couple of menu items off of the
list:)

Dale

On 04/22/2011 03:23 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:

> Hi Dale,
>
> my pleasure :-)
>
> In the mean time could you satisfy my curiosity, and tell me what the unit-test icons at the left of the configs and baselines-versions-... mean? (Idem for groups?)
>
> Thanks in advance :-)
>
> On 22 Apr 2011, at 16:53, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>
>> Johan,
>>
>> Thanks for the excellent feedback ... You have touched on some issues that I am aware of and appreciate your suggestions ... you have also touched on some issues that I hadn't thought about ...
>>
>> I want to let your feedback marinate a bit ... you have provided enough detail that I think I understand where the improvements are needed, but I'm not sure I know the right way to address them ... yet.
>>
>> Please continue to let us know about your learning adventure:)
>>
>> Dale
>
> --
> Johan Fabry
> [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
> PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
>
>
>


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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

Dale Henrichs
Alexandre,

I think the 'run tests' command is great idea ...

Validation wil be important as long as folks edit configs by hand, so validation needs to be part of the tool set (whether automatic or manual) ...

Just because people don't do it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be doing it ... it is very easy to introduce an error that won't show up until you try to use the configuration, so validation is important...

I would prefer to see it automatic which then begs the question of how to notify the user that there is a validation issue and which configuration/version has the issue ... presumably we have a set of feedback options that we can use ...

Dale

On Apr 23, 2011, at 7:46 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

> Dale, I was envisioning to have a 'run tests' command to run all the tests installed by a configuration (we can then decide recursively or not). I think this will consolidate the development process since running the tests is preferable before committing. In that case, the validation led may be misleading no?
> I have the feeling that the validation is something that an end user does not have much to do. I remember you introduced it when you upgraded a bunch of configurations with symbols. This is not something many do today.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 22 Apr 2011, at 17:28, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>
>> No problem ... the icons are there to indicate the validation status .. When you select the 'validate' menu item, each of the versions is validated and the icon is green if there are no issues or red/orange if there are issues. clicking on the icon will return the list of validation issues ...
>>
>> I put this feature in early on, because I was validating a bunch of configurations and I needed to be able to tell which versions had issues...
>>
>> In recent weeks I have wondered if I should drop them altogether and then I run into a validation problem and am glad that they are there:)
>>
>> Right now I think that if they are to stay, they should be automatically updated (in which case we could drop a couple of menu items off of the list:)
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> On 04/22/2011 03:23 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:
>>> Hi Dale,
>>>
>>> my pleasure :-)
>>>
>>> In the mean time could you satisfy my curiosity, and tell me what the unit-test icons at the left of the configs and baselines-versions-... mean? (Idem for groups?)
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance :-)
>>>
>>> On 22 Apr 2011, at 16:53, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Johan,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the excellent feedback ... You have touched on some issues that I am aware of and appreciate your suggestions ... you have also touched on some issues that I hadn't thought about ...
>>>>
>>>> I want to let your feedback marinate a bit ... you have provided enough detail that I think I understand where the improvements are needed, but I'm not sure I know the right way to address them ... yet.
>>>>
>>>> Please continue to let us know about your learning adventure:)
>>>>
>>>> Dale
>>>
>>> --
>>> Johan Fabry
>>> [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
>>> PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry

My 2 cents on this topic: user interface consistency cannot be underestimated. I called these 'leds' unit-test icons because thats what they are (in my mind and I guess also for a lot of other people). So using them for anything else is not a good idea at all.  Alex' proposal seems (to me) a much better idea.

On 23 Apr 2011, at 13:05, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

> I agree with you. The browser is not yet a replacement for manual editing. The validation mechanism has to be present.
>
> Maybe the led can be traded with a red bold font for the project name. The meaning of the red font is clear and unambiguous. The led can then instead be used for the test. How does that sound?
>
> I will work on the test soon. This week end maybe.
>
> Alexandre  
>
> Le 23 avr. 2011 à 11:43, Dale Henrichs <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Alexandre,
>>
>> I think the 'run tests' command is great idea ...
>>
>> Validation wil be important as long as folks edit configs by hand, so validation needs to be part of the tool set (whether automatic or manual) ...
>>
>> Just because people don't do it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be doing it ... it is very easy to introduce an error that won't show up until you try to use the configuration, so validation is important...
>>
>> I would prefer to see it automatic which then begs the question of how to notify the user that there is a validation issue and which configuration/version has the issue ... presumably we have a set of feedback options that we can use ...
>>
>> Dale

--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile




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Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry
In reply to this post by Dale Henrichs

On 22 Apr 2011, at 16:53, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> Please continue to let us know about your learning adventure:)


So here we go for part 2: Making a configuration of AspectMaps.  (see http://pleiad.cl/aspectmaps if you want to know more). Sadly, this is the one that did not work out for me :-(

Structure: I have a Squeaksource project AspectMaps with two packages (from the 5 present in the project): AspectMaps and Famix-Aspix that I want to include in the config. Each of these has an identically-named category.

First problem: there is no obvious wildcard expression that matches both names except * I did not want to enter that at creation time to avoid a gigantic menu. So I accepted the default proposal AspectMaps as wildcard and added the AspectMaps package. Then I tried to add the Famix-Aspix package but I was unable to do this. This is strange, as at development time I should be able to define new packages and include it in the list of packages of a config.

Second problem: (after starting afresh and using a * wildcard). There is a dependency between the two packages: Famix-Aspix should be loaded first. I see no way to express this. Moreover, AspectMaps also requires TraitsApplication (yesterdays config) to be loaded. Again, I see no way to express this. This really puzzles me, because for me this is one of the core reasons to have configuration management and hence should be highly visible in this browser. And this actually is my main reason to use Metacello. (Yes, I can use package dependencies in Monticello to do similar stuff, and I am actually doing this with an Aspects-All package -- My thanks to Simon! -- but I want to get away from that because it's a hassle.)

Third problem: AspectMaps needs post-load actions and pre-save, pre-unload actions. I dont see how to add that using the browser. Also, apparently pre- and post-load actions are supported in Metacello, but pre-save and pre-unload not? I think it would be good idea to add those ...

I'd like to repeat that I do not know Metacello, so if I misinterpreted any menu items in the browser and some of the above is indeed possible please please please correct me. I would be very happy if I could create a configuration for AspectMaps that satisfies the above criteria. In the end, this is what I started to use the browser for!

Some more UI issues:
- creating a new config does not automatically select it. That's confusing.
- what I realized about the menus today: a right mouse button click is supposed to bring up a contextual menu, that is: the contents of the menu change depending on the selected items. This does not happen here. Hence the current menu should actually be in a menu bar. Right click should present a menu that makes sense only on the selected item.

--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile




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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

Dale Henrichs
In reply to this post by jfabry
Johan,

Just one point ... the ui for MetacelloBrowser is not expected to be complete at this point ... I think there are still a number of commands that need to be added before we can start considering what the final ui will look like ... once we have a feel for the set of commands that should be included and the type of work flow we are supporting (neither of which has been decided upon) we will be able to fine tune the ui and there is a lot of work that needs to be done ...

You're comments about the fact that you had difficulty figuring out how to call your #loadDefault method are where we need to be focussing our efforts ... this is a missing piece of functionality that needs to be addressed.

Spiffing up a ui _before_ you've decided on the final set of commands to be supported is the same type of mistake you make  when making a premature optimization of an algorithm ...

For me the biggest problem that I struggle with is the number of times that I must break out of the MetacelloBrowser to do work with Monticello Browser windows...I have included a number of commands in the MetacelloBrowser that allow you to perform many of the MonticelloBrowser functions and I see the need to add more ... So I begin thinking that maybe these functions should be incorporated into the MetacelloBrowser ... allow the direct viewing of the repository/history .... I'm also not happy with having to go the browser to see certain bits of information from the Metacello spec (like the description) .... I think we need to incorporate that as well ... We need major improvement in the ui for creating a configuration ... major work needs to be done there ...

... and more ...

Dale
On Apr 23, 2011, at 12:57 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:

>
> My 2 cents on this topic: user interface consistency cannot be underestimated. I called these 'leds' unit-test icons because thats what they are (in my mind and I guess also for a lot of other people). So using them for anything else is not a good idea at all.  Alex' proposal seems (to me) a much better idea.
>
> On 23 Apr 2011, at 13:05, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>
>> I agree with you. The browser is not yet a replacement for manual editing. The validation mechanism has to be present.
>>
>> Maybe the led can be traded with a red bold font for the project name. The meaning of the red font is clear and unambiguous. The led can then instead be used for the test. How does that sound?
>>
>> I will work on the test soon. This week end maybe.
>>
>> Alexandre  
>>
>> Le 23 avr. 2011 à 11:43, Dale Henrichs <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>>> Alexandre,
>>>
>>> I think the 'run tests' command is great idea ...
>>>
>>> Validation wil be important as long as folks edit configs by hand, so validation needs to be part of the tool set (whether automatic or manual) ...
>>>
>>> Just because people don't do it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be doing it ... it is very easy to introduce an error that won't show up until you try to use the configuration, so validation is important...
>>>
>>> I would prefer to see it automatic which then begs the question of how to notify the user that there is a validation issue and which configuration/version has the issue ... presumably we have a set of feedback options that we can use ...
>>>
>>> Dale
>
> --
> Johan Fabry  
> [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
> PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
>
>
>


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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry
Hi Dale,

I understand the point you are making. I never intended my mails to be of the 'do this now' kind. I am just sharing my experiences and points of view. I have always had strong opinions about UI elements and lately even more since I have been reading up on the topic (because of my work on AspectMaps ). If my comments can be of any use and may be taken into account at some point, great, if not, no problem. I get that this is a work in progress and I am sure you have a lot of other things on your plate, as do we all :-/

(assuming you are replying to both my mails of last saturday, btw)

On 24 Apr 2011, at 11:52, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> Johan,
>
> Just one point ... the ui for MetacelloBrowser is not expected to be complete at this point ... I think there are still a number of commands that need to be added before we can start considering what the final ui will look like ... once we have a feel for the set of commands that should be included and the type of work flow we are supporting (neither of which has been decided upon) we will be able to fine tune the ui and there is a lot of work that needs to be done ...
>
> You're comments about the fact that you had difficulty figuring out how to call your #loadDefault method are where we need to be focussing our efforts ... this is a missing piece of functionality that needs to be addressed.
>
> Spiffing up a ui _before_ you've decided on the final set of commands to be supported is the same type of mistake you make  when making a premature optimization of an algorithm ...
>
> For me the biggest problem that I struggle with is the number of times that I must break out of the MetacelloBrowser to do work with Monticello Browser windows...I have included a number of commands in the MetacelloBrowser that allow you to perform many of the MonticelloBrowser functions and I see the need to add more ... So I begin thinking that maybe these functions should be incorporated into the MetacelloBrowser ... allow the direct viewing of the repository/history .... I'm also not happy with having to go the browser to see certain bits of information from the Metacello spec (like the description) .... I think we need to incorporate that as well ... We need major improvement in the ui for creating a configuration ... major work needs to be done there ...
>
> ... and more ...
>
> Dale
> On Apr 23, 2011, at 12:57 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:
>
>>
>> My 2 cents on this topic: user interface consistency cannot be underestimated. I called these 'leds' unit-test icons because thats what they are (in my mind and I guess also for a lot of other people). So using them for anything else is not a good idea at all.  Alex' proposal seems (to me) a much better idea.


--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile




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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

Dale Henrichs
Johan,

I will be replying separately to your other email on Saturday .. . the
one below was written before I read your other email:)

Frankly I am embarassed by the current state of the configuration
construct steps ... and I am sad that you wasted some of your time
trying out something that I knew was pretty broken...

Your feedback is very welcome and to be honest your efforts have spurred
me to focus on solving the construction problem before moving too far
forward ...

I was hoping for feedback on using the MetacelloBrowser for things not
related to creating the initial configuration, but it is obvious from
your experience (and others) creating that initial configuration is the
thing that folks are looking for when opening up the MetacelloBrowser...

In the end this is a good thing so I do appreciate your effort ...

I know that UIs bring out the strong opinions of folks and have tried to
stay out of the ui/gui business for Metacello, but my own storng
opinions won't let me:)

Thank you very much ...

Dale
On 04/25/2011 11:00 AM, Johan Fabry wrote:

> Hi Dale,
>
> I understand the point you are making. I never intended my mails to
> be of the 'do this now' kind. I am just sharing my experiences and
> points of view. I have always had strong opinions about UI elements
> and lately even more since I have been reading up on the topic
> (because of my work on AspectMaps ). If my comments can be of any use
> and may be taken into account at some point, great, if not, no
> problem. I get that this is a work in progress and I am sure you have
> a lot of other things on your plate, as do we all :-/
>
> (assuming you are replying to both my mails of last saturday, btw)
>
> On 24 Apr 2011, at 11:52, Dale Henrichs wrote:
>
>> Johan,
>>
>> Just one point ... the ui for MetacelloBrowser is not expected to
>> be complete at this point ... I think there are still a number of
>> commands that need to be added before we can start considering what
>> the final ui will look like ... once we have a feel for the set of
>> commands that should be included and the type of work flow we are
>> supporting (neither of which has been decided upon) we will be able
>> to fine tune the ui and there is a lot of work that needs to be
>> done ...
>>
>> You're comments about the fact that you had difficulty figuring out
>> how to call your #loadDefault method are where we need to be
>> focussing our efforts ... this is a missing piece of functionality
>> that needs to be addressed.
>>
>> Spiffing up a ui _before_ you've decided on the final set of
>> commands to be supported is the same type of mistake you make  when
>> making a premature optimization of an algorithm ...
>>
>> For me the biggest problem that I struggle with is the number of
>> times that I must break out of the MetacelloBrowser to do work with
>> Monticello Browser windows...I have included a number of commands
>> in the MetacelloBrowser that allow you to perform many of the
>> MonticelloBrowser functions and I see the need to add more ... So I
>> begin thinking that maybe these functions should be incorporated
>> into the MetacelloBrowser ... allow the direct viewing of the
>> repository/history .... I'm also not happy with having to go the
>> browser to see certain bits of information from the Metacello spec
>> (like the description) .... I think we need to incorporate that as
>> well ... We need major improvement in the ui for creating a
>> configuration ... major work needs to be done there ...
>>
>> ... and more ...
>>
>> Dale On Apr 23, 2011, at 12:57 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My 2 cents on this topic: user interface consistency cannot be
>>> underestimated. I called these 'leds' unit-test icons because
>>> thats what they are (in my mind and I guess also for a lot of
>>> other people). So using them for anything else is not a good idea
>>> at all.  Alex' proposal seems (to me) a much better idea.
>
>
> -- Johan Fabry [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
> PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
>
>
>


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Re: [Metacello] Re: Metacellobrowser feedback

jfabry

On 25 Apr 2011, at 14:10, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> Johan,
>
> I will be replying separately to your other email on Saturday .. . the
> one below was written before I read your other email:)

OK no problem :-)

> Frankly I am embarassed by the current state of the configuration construct steps ... and I am sad that you wasted some of your time trying out something that I knew was pretty broken...

Dont worry Dale, I have spent much more time lately on things that were in a much worse state. (Eclipse comes to mind for example.)

> Your feedback is very welcome and to be honest your efforts have spurred me to focus on solving the construction problem before moving too far forward ...
>
> I was hoping for feedback on using the MetacelloBrowser for things not related to creating the initial configuration, but it is obvious from your experience (and others) creating that initial configuration is the thing that folks are looking for when opening up the MetacelloBrowser...

Yes, the first step when doing something is usually the hardest. The thing is, we often tend to forget our first steps. Maybe we are subconsciously blocking them out ;-)

> In the end this is a good thing so I do appreciate your effort ...

My pleasure, I appreciate you guys creating a browser for Metacello!

> I know that UIs bring out the strong opinions of folks and have tried to stay out of the ui/gui business for Metacello, but my own storng opinions won't let me:)
>
> Thank you very much ...


Again, my pleasure. When there is a new version out that addresses some of my concerns I will be happy to give it a spin ...

--
Johan Fabry  
[hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile