Smalltalk › Squeak › Squeak - Dev

Migrating Traits to Visual Age

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

11 messages Options

Diego Tubello

Migrating Traits to Visual Age

Hi,

We are trying to migrate Traits into Visual Age, and thought about three alternatives:

- Try to copy squeak implementation into Visualk Age as it is and make the tests pass.

- Copy only the tests and make an implementation of Traits to make tests pass.

- Implement Traits from the ground in Visual Age.

Any idea of which is the best way to do this?, or if there is a better approach?

Thanks,

DiegoTubello

Luciana Garcia Richter

Adrian Lienhard

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

Hi,

I don't think that it makes sens to try copying the implementation
from Squeak. It is too much depending on the details of the
implementation of the classes kernel. What is independent from that
is the small part which models trait compositions, and of course the
tests, which will certainly be helpful.

The kernel part is quite straight forward to implement: the main
thing is to keep track of changed or deleted methods and to
appropriately update the method dictionaries of affected classes and
traits. In our implementation, traits are behaviors like classes,
with the main difference beeing that they cannot be instantiated. To
get an idea of how this works, have a look at the Squeak
implementation. You can also find information here [1].

Of course, the real work then comes when you want to integrate traits
seamlessly into the environment (code browsers, SCM, changesets,
etc.), and to have an automated bootstrapping.

Please feel free to ask questions... For papers about traits see [2].

Cheers,
Adrian

[1] http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/files/master.pdf
[2] http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Research/Traits/index.html

___________________
Adrian Lienhard
www.adrian-lienhard.ch

On Sep 23, 2006, at 21:18 , Diego Tubello wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are trying to migrate Traits into Visual Age, and thought about
> three alternatives:
>
> - Try to copy squeak implementation into Visualk Age as it
> is and make the tests pass.
>
> - Copy only the tests and make an implementation of Traits
> to make tests pass.
>
> - Implement Traits from the ground in Visual Age.
>
>
>
> Any idea of which is the best way to do this?, or if there is a
> better approach?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> DiegoTubello
>
> Luciana Garcia Richter
>
>

Blake-5

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

Not to sidetrack, but is visual Age Smalltalk still available? I never can
find it for PCs on the IBM site.

vaidasd

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

> Not to sidetrack, but is visual Age Smalltalk still available?
see:
http://www.instantiations.com/VAST/roadmap.htm

Vaidotas Didžbalis

Yann Monclair-2

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

In reply to this post by Blake-5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

VAST is now available from Instantiations, http://
www.instantiations.com/VAST/pd.htm

On Sep 25, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Blake wrote:

> Not to sidetrack, but is visual Age Smalltalk still available? I
> never can find it for PCs on the IBM site.
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin)

iQCVAwUBRResLpU/hichOrnsAQLENAQA4uswPi60YMLlZ6fKGueiMxL+e7PWMG6U
+HXuDVR2yplGAFb85w4vgvV7VBR28sPpWkIDFap9qQB15pyvpr5LqOV3I6zk1aVC
/yc0FfWnxrHsXDNU5kwDpNg8cJbzXKD4WpUPvhYWMNigXn54GQh3Wb2kkTPr5+bS
jlatUHN+La0=
=qcV6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

stephane ducasse-2

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

In reply to this post by Diego Tubello

Hi,

First this is great!!
Adrian already replied. So I will just add some information.

Now in VW for example you cannot share dictionaries. I do not know in
VA.
The implementation in Squeak shares compiledMethod when they do not
contain super.
This can also confuse the tools :). I do not know the compiledMethod
class of VA to give you
a clear answer.

As adrian mentioned integrating traits with Changeset and other can
be a problem.
But let us know informed of your progress.

Stef

Philippe Marschall

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

2006/9/25, stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> First this is great!!
> Adrian already replied. So I will just add some information.
>
> Now in VW for example you cannot share dictionaries. I do not know in
> VA.
> The implementation in Squeak shares compiledMethod when they do not
> contain super.
> This can also confuse the tools :). I do not know the compiledMethod
> class of VA to give you
> a clear answer.

I would advise against sharing. It causes so much pain and only saves
a few bytes. It's not 1972 anymore, we have memory to burn.

Philippe

Hernan Wilkinson

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard

Hi Adrian,
what do you mean by "automated bootstrapping"?... I understand what
it means by itself but not in the context of traits... Could you give us
an example?
I haven't look at the Traits implementation but I know it has
tests... what do they test? do they test the hole implementation? only
the traits composition?

Thanks,
Hernan.

Adrian Lienhard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't think that it makes sens to try copying the implementation
> from Squeak. It is too much depending on the details of the
> implementation of the classes kernel. What is independent from that is
> the small part which models trait compositions, and of course the
> tests, which will certainly be helpful.
>
> The kernel part is quite straight forward to implement: the main thing
> is to keep track of changed or deleted methods and to appropriately
> update the method dictionaries of affected classes and traits. In our
> implementation, traits are behaviors like classes, with the main
> difference beeing that they cannot be instantiated. To get an idea of
> how this works, have a look at the Squeak implementation. You can also
> find information here [1].
>
> Of course, the real work then comes when you want to integrate traits
> seamlessly into the environment (code browsers, SCM, changesets,
> etc.), and to have an automated bootstrapping.
>
> Please feel free to ask questions... For papers about traits see [2].
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> [1] http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/files/master.pdf
> [2] http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Research/Traits/index.html
>
> ___________________
> Adrian Lienhard
> www.adrian-lienhard.ch
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2006, at 21:18 , Diego Tubello wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are trying to migrate Traits into Visual Age, and thought about
>> three alternatives:
>>
>> - Try to copy squeak implementation into Visualk Age as it
>> is and make the tests pass.
>>
>> - Copy only the tests and make an implementation of Traits
>> to make tests pass.
>>
>> - Implement Traits from the ground in Visual Age.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any idea of which is the best way to do this?, or if there is a
>> better approach?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> DiegoTubello
>>
>> Luciana Garcia Richter
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

--
______________________________
Lic. Hernán A. Wilkinson
Gerente de Desarrollo y Tecnología
Mercap S.R.L.
Tacuari 202 - 7mo Piso - Tel: 54-11-4878-1118
Buenos Aires - Argentina
http://www.mercapsoftware.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Este mensaje es confidencial. Puede contener informacion amparada
por el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error,
por favor comuniquenoslo inmediatamente via e-mail y tenga la
amabilidad de eliminarlo de su sistema; no debera copiar el mensaje
ni divulgar su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.

This message is confidential. It may also contain information that is
privileged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have
received it by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and
delete it from your system; you should also not copy the message nor
disclose its contents to anyone. Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Adrian Lienhard

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

Hi Hernan,

On Sep 25, 2006, at 13:40 , Hernan Wilkinson wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
> what do you mean by "automated bootstrapping"?... I understand
> what it means by itself but not in the context of traits... Could
> you give us an example?

Since traits change the behavior of the kernel, loading traits can be
problematic (unless you have an atomic load, which we don't have in
Squeak). One source of problems is that when loading traits, the code
that is run for loading is being modified. Hence, if the methods are
not loaded in the right order, the system gets broken very quickly.
Another need to do some bootstrapping was because the traits
implementation uses traits (to allow for sharing behavior between the
classes and the traits class hierarchy)...

> I haven't look at the Traits implementation but I know it has
> tests... what do they test? do they test the hole implementation?
> only the traits composition?

They are supposed to test the whole implementation. Many tests are
about verifying that the method dictionaries get updated correctly.
Those tests work at a high level, hence, they can probably be reused
without much change.

Cheers,
Adrian

>
> Thanks,
> Hernan.
>
> Adrian Lienhard wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't think that it makes sens to try copying the implementation
>> from Squeak. It is too much depending on the details of the
>> implementation of the classes kernel. What is independent from
>> that is the small part which models trait compositions, and of
>> course the tests, which will certainly be helpful.
>>
>> The kernel part is quite straight forward to implement: the main
>> thing is to keep track of changed or deleted methods and to
>> appropriately update the method dictionaries of affected classes
>> and traits. In our implementation, traits are behaviors like
>> classes, with the main difference beeing that they cannot be
>> instantiated. To get an idea of how this works, have a look at the
>> Squeak implementation. You can also find information here [1].
>>
>> Of course, the real work then comes when you want to integrate
>> traits seamlessly into the environment (code browsers, SCM,
>> changesets, etc.), and to have an automated bootstrapping.
>>
>> Please feel free to ask questions... For papers about traits see [2].
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> [1] http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/files/master.pdf
>> [2] http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Research/Traits/index.html
>>
>> ___________________
>> Adrian Lienhard
>> www.adrian-lienhard.ch
>>
>>
>> On Sep 23, 2006, at 21:18 , Diego Tubello wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are trying to migrate Traits into Visual Age, and thought
>>> about three alternatives:
>>>
>>> - Try to copy squeak implementation into Visualk Age as
>>> it is and make the tests pass.
>>>
>>> - Copy only the tests and make an implementation of
>>> Traits to make tests pass.
>>>
>>> - Implement Traits from the ground in Visual Age.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any idea of which is the best way to do this?, or if there is a
>>> better approach?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> DiegoTubello
>>>
>>> Luciana Garcia Richter
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ______________________________
> Lic. Hernán A. Wilkinson
> Gerente de Desarrollo y Tecnología
> Mercap S.R.L.
> Tacuari 202 - 7mo Piso - Tel: 54-11-4878-1118
> Buenos Aires - Argentina
> http://www.mercapsoftware.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Este mensaje es confidencial. Puede contener informacion amparada
> por el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por
> error, por favor comuniquenoslo inmediatamente via e-mail y tenga
> la amabilidad de eliminarlo de su sistema; no debera copiar el
> mensaje ni divulgar su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.
> This message is confidential. It may also contain information that
> is privileged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you
> have received it by mistake please let us know by e-mail
> immediately and delete it from your system; you should also not
> copy the message nor disclose its contents to anyone. Thanks.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Blake-5

Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

In reply to this post by Yann Monclair-2

Thanks!

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 03:15:09 -0700, Yann Monclair <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> VAST is now available from Instantiations, http://
> www.instantiations.com/VAST/pd.htm
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Blake wrote:
>
>> Not to sidetrack, but is visual Age Smalltalk still available? I never
>> can find it for PCs on the IBM site.
>>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin)
>
> iQCVAwUBRResLpU/hichOrnsAQLENAQA4uswPi60YMLlZ6fKGueiMxL+e7PWMG6U
> +HXuDVR2yplGAFb85w4vgvV7VBR28sPpWkIDFap9qQB15pyvpr5LqOV3I6zk1aVC
> /yc0FfWnxrHsXDNU5kwDpNg8cJbzXKD4WpUPvhYWMNigXn54GQh3Wb2kkTPr5+bS
> jlatUHN+La0=
> =qcV6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

Diego Tubello

RE: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard

Thanks for your help!
We'll keep you informed about our progress.

Cheers,
Diego

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre de Adrian
Lienhard
Enviado el: lunes, 25 de septiembre de 2006 16:15
Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Asunto: Re: Migrating Traits to Visual Age

Hi Hernan,

On Sep 25, 2006, at 13:40 , Hernan Wilkinson wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
> what do you mean by "automated bootstrapping"?... I understand
> what it means by itself but not in the context of traits... Could
> you give us an example?

Since traits change the behavior of the kernel, loading traits can be
problematic (unless you have an atomic load, which we don't have in
Squeak). One source of problems is that when loading traits, the code
that is run for loading is being modified. Hence, if the methods are
not loaded in the right order, the system gets broken very quickly.
Another need to do some bootstrapping was because the traits
implementation uses traits (to allow for sharing behavior between the
classes and the traits class hierarchy)...

> I haven't look at the Traits implementation but I know it has
> tests... what do they test? do they test the hole implementation?
> only the traits composition?

They are supposed to test the whole implementation. Many tests are
about verifying that the method dictionaries get updated correctly.
Those tests work at a high level, hence, they can probably be reused
without much change.

Cheers,
Adrian