More Objects in Reference Manual

> I have completed another pass over the Objects chapter in the Etoys
> Reference Manual,
>
> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/etoys-reference-manual/_edit/
>
> dissecting objects into components, documenting the components,
> identifying the Squeak sources for Etoys objects, adding v5 objects,
> explaining bugs and design deficiencies, noting further information
> needed, and finding more topics to explain elsewhere. Review and
> comments welcome. I expect to make another pass again after I work on
> other aspects of Etoys and Squeak for a while.
>
> There was some confusion about my intention in creating a new chapter
> for the book on Etoys Programming. I hope that my renaming the chapter
> to Etoys Programming Tools will clarify that issue. As I said before,
> and in the little bit I have written in the chapter, it is in no way
> meant to teach how to program in Etoys, only to document how Etoys
> supports software development. Other chapters describe elements of
> this system (UI, scripting tiles, objects) piecemeal. This chapter
> will give an integrated view of the Etoys IDE, including how it gives
> access to Squeak, but will not attempt to explain Squeak programming.
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
> _______________________________________________
> etoys-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

> Greetings,
> Rita
>
> P.S. Thanks for the explanation about the logout problem, now it is
> solved!
>
> On Oct 7, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Edward Mokurai Cherlin wrote:
>
>> I have completed another pass over the Objects chapter in the Etoys
>> Reference Manual,
>>
>> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/etoys-reference-manual/_edit/
>>
>> dissecting objects into components, documenting the components,
>> identifying the Squeak sources for Etoys objects, adding v5 objects,
>> explaining bugs and design deficiencies, noting further information
>> needed, and finding more topics to explain elsewhere. Review and
>> comments welcome. I expect to make another pass again after I work on
>> other aspects of Etoys and Squeak for a while.
>>
>> There was some confusion about my intention in creating a new chapter
>> for the book on Etoys Programming. I hope that my renaming the chapter
>> to Etoys Programming Tools will clarify that issue. As I said before,
>> and in the little bit I have written in the chapter, it is in no way
>> meant to teach how to program in Etoys, only to document how Etoys
>> supports software development. Other chapters describe elements of
>> this system (UI, scripting tiles, objects) piecemeal. This chapter
>> will give an integrated view of the Etoys IDE, including how it gives
>> access to Squeak, but will not attempt to explain Squeak programming.
>>
>> --
>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج)
>> Cherlin
>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
>> _______________________________________________
>> etoys-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>
> Rita Freudenberg
> [hidden email]

> I did make another pass over the Objects chapter, filling in the
> Object Catalog entries that appear with eToyFriendly off, and adding
> more images and references to bug reports.
>
> On Wed, October 10, 2012 7:18 am, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>> Please do not add or remove objects from the objects chapter. In this
>> chapter, we will ONLY have objects you can find in the objects catalogue.
>
> I disagree with this notion. However, it does not matter much to me
> which chapter the descriptions appear in as long as I can make them
> clear, correct, and complete.
>
>> It does not matter in the object chapter in which subclasses these objects
>> are implemented. The scope of information in the object chapter is Etoys,
>> not Squeak
>
> I disagree. This is a Reference Manual.
>
> In addition, because of deficiencies in the Etoys implementation,
> there are important properties of some Etoys objects that cannot be
> managed in Etoys, but require use of Squeak to make those objects of
> any use.
>
> This is a separate topic, but I find that Etoys is in need of a major
> refactoring, and also a detailed proofreading and a substantial
> rewriting of exceedingly uninformative help text and comments. I am
> shocked by the sloppiness I see.
>
>> (i.e. the underlying programming language, you can only reach
>> easily when you turn Etoy friendly off).
>
> This turns out not to be the case. All of Squeak is accessible using
> keyboard shortcuts, the inspect object menu item in the Players tool,
> and the middle-click menu, regardless of the eToyFriendly setting.
> Inspector, explorer, debugger, browser, senders, implementors,
> references, selectors, method strings, class names, change sets,
> workspace, transcript, and more.
>
> Granted that none of this is easy to discover, nevertheless it is
> quite easy to reach after only a few hints and brief explanations.
> Understanding how to use the Squeak IDE and Smalltalk is of course
> much more complicated than that.
>
> The most obvious difference with eToyFriendly off is that Workspace
> appears in the Object Catalog, but there are 49 places in Squeak
> (senders) that refer to the eToyFriendly setting, and I have not had a
> chance to look at them all.
>
>> I'm happy to have an appendix with all the other objects and I'll move
>> your descriptions to that chapter. It is very important information! But
>> not for the average Etoys user, not for the teacher who just start using
>> Etoys
>
> It is my understanding that this is a Reference Manual, and not in any
> way an introduction to Etoys for either teachers or students.
>
>> and you can use Etoys happily for many challenges with your students
>> without ever looking at the underlying Squeak source code.
>> For computer science teachers, on the other hand, what you wrote down is
>> very useful.
>
> You and I seem to have very different views of what children are
> interested in learning. In a word: everything. It is the worst sort of
> condescension to tell children (or anybody) what they are allowed to
> know about, except that it is even worse condescension to claim to
> tell them what they _want_ to know about.
>
> When I want to hear _your_ opinion, I'll *tell* it to you.--Any
> tyranny since Plato, most notably the Prussian school system
>
> The greatest principle of all is that nobody, whether male or female,
> should be without a leader. Nor should the mind of anybody be
> habituated to letting him (or her) do anything at all on his (or her)
> own initiative–to his leader he shall direct his eye and follow him
> faithfully. And even in the smallest matter he should stand under
> leadership. For example, he should get up, or move, or wash, or take
> his meals...only if he has been told to do so. In a word, he should
> teach his soul, by long habit, never to dream of acting independently,
> and to become utterly incapable of it.
>
>    Plato, Laws 942d (350 BCE)
>
> Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814)
>
>    You must fashion [the person], and fashion him in such a way that
> he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will.
>
>    Addresses to the German Nation
>
> What I wrote down is precisely what I would have liked to see when I
> was eleven years old. What I would have demanded to see, in fact.
>
> Etoys is an excellent introduction to programming, but at a certain
> point vastly frustrating. At that point being able to go under the
> hood into Squeak to fix broken objects or extend their capabilities is
> of immense value. The notion that one must wait for a computer science
> course to learn real programming is to me utterly contrary to the
> reality that we hear from student programmers. We know for a fact,
> from a great many studies involving a wide variety of programming
> languages, that children can learn text-based programming languages
> starting in third grade. I have a notion that we can start Turtle Art
> in preschool, in large part by getting rid of the words on the tiles
> and replacing them with Unicode symbols. I started to create such a
> system last year, and wrote about it, with examples.
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/TurtleArt/Tutorials/Turtle_Art_programming_without_words
>
>> In the appendix, I added the chapter "More etoys objects" and I started to
>> copy all objects, which are not in the object catalog, to that chapter. We
>> can discuss to move the chapter out of the appendices, but, as Karl also
>> said, there should be a second chapter.
>
> Then we should rename the Objects chapter, perhaps to The Basic Object Catalog.
>
>> Greetings,
>> Rita
>>
>> P.S. Thanks for the explanation about the logout problem, now it is
>> solved!
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Edward Mokurai Cherlin wrote:
>>
>>> I have completed another pass over the Objects chapter in the Etoys
>>> Reference Manual,
>>>
>>> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/etoys-reference-manual/_edit/
>>>
>>> dissecting objects into components, documenting the components,
>>> identifying the Squeak sources for Etoys objects, adding v5 objects,
>>> explaining bugs and design deficiencies, noting further information
>>> needed, and finding more topics to explain elsewhere. Review and
>>> comments welcome. I expect to make another pass again after I work on
>>> other aspects of Etoys and Squeak for a while.
>>>
>>> There was some confusion about my intention in creating a new chapter
>>> for the book on Etoys Programming. I hope that my renaming the chapter
>>> to Etoys Programming Tools will clarify that issue. As I said before,
>>> and in the little bit I have written in the chapter, it is in no way
>>> meant to teach how to program in Etoys, only to document how Etoys
>>> supports software development. Other chapters describe elements of
>>> this system (UI, scripting tiles, objects) piecemeal. This chapter
>>> will give an integrated view of the Etoys IDE, including how it gives
>>> access to Squeak, but will not attempt to explain Squeak programming.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج)
>>> Cherlin
>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> etoys-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>>
>> Rita Freudenberg
>> [hidden email]

> I did make another pass over the Objects chapter, filling in the
> Object Catalog entries that appear with eToyFriendly off, and adding
> more images and references to bug reports.
>
> On Wed, October 10, 2012 7:18 am, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>> Please do not add or remove objects from the objects chapter. In this
>> chapter, we will ONLY have objects you can find in the objects catalogue.
>
> I disagree with this notion. However, it does not matter much to me
> which chapter the descriptions appear in as long as I can make them
> clear, correct, and complete.
>
>> It does not matter in the object chapter in which subclasses these objects
>> are implemented. The scope of information in the object chapter is Etoys,
>> not Squeak
>
> I disagree. This is a Reference Manual.
>
> In addition, because of deficiencies in the Etoys implementation,
> there are important properties of some Etoys objects that cannot be
> managed in Etoys, but require use of Squeak to make those objects of
> any use.
>
> This is a separate topic, but I find that Etoys is in need of a major
> refactoring, and also a detailed proofreading and a substantial
> rewriting of exceedingly uninformative help text and comments. I am
> shocked by the sloppiness I see.
>
>> (i.e. the underlying programming language, you can only reach
>> easily when you turn Etoy friendly off).
>
> This turns out not to be the case. All of Squeak is accessible using
> keyboard shortcuts, the inspect object menu item in the Players tool,
> and the middle-click menu, regardless of the eToyFriendly setting.
> Inspector, explorer, debugger, browser, senders, implementors,
> references, selectors, method strings, class names, change sets,
> workspace, transcript, and more.
>
> Granted that none of this is easy to discover, nevertheless it is
> quite easy to reach after only a few hints and brief explanations.
> Understanding how to use the Squeak IDE and Smalltalk is of course
> much more complicated than that.
>
> The most obvious difference with eToyFriendly off is that Workspace
> appears in the Object Catalog, but there are 49 places in Squeak
> (senders) that refer to the eToyFriendly setting, and I have not had a
> chance to look at them all.
>
>> I'm happy to have an appendix with all the other objects and I'll move
>> your descriptions to that chapter. It is very important information! But
>> not for the average Etoys user, not for the teacher who just start using
>> Etoys
>
> It is my understanding that this is a Reference Manual, and not in any
> way an introduction to Etoys for either teachers or students.
>
>> and you can use Etoys happily for many challenges with your students
>> without ever looking at the underlying Squeak source code.
>> For computer science teachers, on the other hand, what you wrote down is
>> very useful.
>
> You and I seem to have very different views of what children are
> interested in learning. In a word: everything. It is the worst sort of
> condescension to tell children (or anybody) what they are allowed to
> know about, except that it is even worse condescension to claim to
> tell them what they _want_ to know about.
>
> When I want to hear _your_ opinion, I'll *tell* it to you.--Any
> tyranny since Plato, most notably the Prussian school system
>
> The greatest principle of all is that nobody, whether male or female,
> should be without a leader. Nor should the mind of anybody be
> habituated to letting him (or her) do anything at all on his (or her)
> own initiative–to his leader he shall direct his eye and follow him
> faithfully. And even in the smallest matter he should stand under
> leadership. For example, he should get up, or move, or wash, or take
> his meals...only if he has been told to do so. In a word, he should
> teach his soul, by long habit, never to dream of acting independently,
> and to become utterly incapable of it.
>
>    Plato, Laws 942d (350 BCE)
>
> Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814)
>
>    You must fashion [the person], and fashion him in such a way that
> he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will.
>
>    Addresses to the German Nation
>
> What I wrote down is precisely what I would have liked to see when I
> was eleven years old. What I would have demanded to see, in fact.
>
> Etoys is an excellent introduction to programming, but at a certain
> point vastly frustrating. At that point being able to go under the
> hood into Squeak to fix broken objects or extend their capabilities is
> of immense value. The notion that one must wait for a computer science
> course to learn real programming is to me utterly contrary to the
> reality that we hear from student programmers. We know for a fact,
> from a great many studies involving a wide variety of programming
> languages, that children can learn text-based programming languages
> starting in third grade. I have a notion that we can start Turtle Art
> in preschool, in large part by getting rid of the words on the tiles
> and replacing them with Unicode symbols. I started to create such a
> system last year, and wrote about it, with examples.
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/TurtleArt/Tutorials/Turtle_Art_programming_without_words
>
>> In the appendix, I added the chapter "More etoys objects" and I started to
>> copy all objects, which are not in the object catalog, to that chapter. We
>> can discuss to move the chapter out of the appendices, but, as Karl also
>> said, there should be a second chapter.
>
> Then we should rename the Objects chapter, perhaps to The Basic Object Catalog.
>
>> Greetings,
>> Rita
>>
>> P.S. Thanks for the explanation about the logout problem, now it is
>> solved!
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Edward Mokurai Cherlin wrote:
>>
>>> I have completed another pass over the Objects chapter in the Etoys
>>> Reference Manual,
>>>
>>> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/etoys-reference-manual/_edit/
>>>
>>> dissecting objects into components, documenting the components,
>>> identifying the Squeak sources for Etoys objects, adding v5 objects,
>>> explaining bugs and design deficiencies, noting further information
>>> needed, and finding more topics to explain elsewhere. Review and
>>> comments welcome. I expect to make another pass again after I work on
>>> other aspects of Etoys and Squeak for a while.
>>>
>>> There was some confusion about my intention in creating a new chapter
>>> for the book on Etoys Programming. I hope that my renaming the chapter
>>> to Etoys Programming Tools will clarify that issue. As I said before,
>>> and in the little bit I have written in the chapter, it is in no way
>>> meant to teach how to program in Etoys, only to document how Etoys
>>> supports software development. Other chapters describe elements of
>>> this system (UI, scripting tiles, objects) piecemeal. This chapter
>>> will give an integrated view of the Etoys IDE, including how it gives
>>> access to Squeak, but will not attempt to explain Squeak programming.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج)
>>> Cherlin
>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> etoys-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>>
>> Rita Freudenberg
>> [hidden email]
>
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
> _______________________________________________
> etoys-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev

> Greetings,
> Rita
>
> Am 14.10.2012 um 19:46 schrieb Edward Mokurai Cherlin:
>
>> I did make another pass over the Objects chapter, filling in the
>> Object Catalog entries that appear with eToyFriendly off, and adding
>> more images and references to bug reports.
>>
>> On Wed, October 10, 2012 7:18 am, Rita Freudenberg wrote:
>>> Please do not add or remove objects from the objects chapter. In this
>>> chapter, we will ONLY have objects you can find in the objects
>>> catalogue.
>>
>> I disagree with this notion. However, it does not matter much to me
>> which chapter the descriptions appear in as long as I can make them
>> clear, correct, and complete.
>>
>>> It does not matter in the object chapter in which subclasses these
>>> objects
>>> are implemented. The scope of information in the object chapter is
>>> Etoys,
>>> not Squeak
>>
>> I disagree. This is a Reference Manual.
>>
>> In addition, because of deficiencies in the Etoys implementation,
>> there are important properties of some Etoys objects that cannot be
>> managed in Etoys, but require use of Squeak to make those objects of
>> any use.
>>
>> This is a separate topic, but I find that Etoys is in need of a major
>> refactoring, and also a detailed proofreading and a substantial
>> rewriting of exceedingly uninformative help text and comments. I am
>> shocked by the sloppiness I see.
>>
>>> (i.e. the underlying programming language, you can only reach
>>> easily when you turn Etoy friendly off).
>>
>> This turns out not to be the case. All of Squeak is accessible using
>> keyboard shortcuts, the inspect object menu item in the Players tool,
>> and the middle-click menu, regardless of the eToyFriendly setting.
>> Inspector, explorer, debugger, browser, senders, implementors,
>> references, selectors, method strings, class names, change sets,
>> workspace, transcript, and more.
>>
>> Granted that none of this is easy to discover, nevertheless it is
>> quite easy to reach after only a few hints and brief explanations.
>> Understanding how to use the Squeak IDE and Smalltalk is of course
>> much more complicated than that.
>>
>> The most obvious difference with eToyFriendly off is that Workspace
>> appears in the Object Catalog, but there are 49 places in Squeak
>> (senders) that refer to the eToyFriendly setting, and I have not had a
>> chance to look at them all.
>>
>>> I'm happy to have an appendix with all the other objects and I'll move
>>> your descriptions to that chapter. It is very important information!
>>> But
>>> not for the average Etoys user, not for the teacher who just start
>>> using
>>> Etoys
>>
>> It is my understanding that this is a Reference Manual, and not in any
>> way an introduction to Etoys for either teachers or students.
>>
>>> and you can use Etoys happily for many challenges with your students
>>> without ever looking at the underlying Squeak source code.
>>> For computer science teachers, on the other hand, what you wrote down
>>> is
>>> very useful.
>>
>> You and I seem to have very different views of what children are
>> interested in learning. In a word: everything. It is the worst sort of
>> condescension to tell children (or anybody) what they are allowed to
>> know about, except that it is even worse condescension to claim to
>> tell them what they _want_ to know about.
>>
>> When I want to hear _your_ opinion, I'll *tell* it to you.--Any
>> tyranny since Plato, most notably the Prussian school system
>>
>> The greatest principle of all is that nobody, whether male or female,
>> should be without a leader. Nor should the mind of anybody be
>> habituated to letting him (or her) do anything at all on his (or her)
>> own initiative–to his leader he shall direct his eye and follow him
>> faithfully. And even in the smallest matter he should stand under
>> leadership. For example, he should get up, or move, or wash, or take
>> his meals...only if he has been told to do so. In a word, he should
>> teach his soul, by long habit, never to dream of acting independently,
>> and to become utterly incapable of it.
>>
>>    Plato, Laws 942d (350 BCE)
>>
>> Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814)
>>
>>    You must fashion [the person], and fashion him in such a way that
>> he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will.
>>
>>    Addresses to the German Nation
>>
>> What I wrote down is precisely what I would have liked to see when I
>> was eleven years old. What I would have demanded to see, in fact.
>>
>> Etoys is an excellent introduction to programming, but at a certain
>> point vastly frustrating. At that point being able to go under the
>> hood into Squeak to fix broken objects or extend their capabilities is
>> of immense value. The notion that one must wait for a computer science
>> course to learn real programming is to me utterly contrary to the
>> reality that we hear from student programmers. We know for a fact,
>> from a great many studies involving a wide variety of programming
>> languages, that children can learn text-based programming languages
>> starting in third grade. I have a notion that we can start Turtle Art
>> in preschool, in large part by getting rid of the words on the tiles
>> and replacing them with Unicode symbols. I started to create such a
>> system last year, and wrote about it, with examples.
>>
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/TurtleArt/Tutorials/Turtle_Art_programming_without_words
>>
>>> In the appendix, I added the chapter "More etoys objects" and I started
>>> to
>>> copy all objects, which are not in the object catalog, to that chapter.
>>> We
>>> can discuss to move the chapter out of the appendices, but, as Karl
>>> also
>>> said, there should be a second chapter.
>>
>> Then we should rename the Objects chapter, perhaps to The Basic Object
>> Catalog.
>>
>>> Greetings,
>>> Rita
>>>
>>> P.S. Thanks for the explanation about the logout problem, now it is
>>> solved!
>>>
>>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Edward Mokurai Cherlin wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have completed another pass over the Objects chapter in the Etoys
>>>> Reference Manual,
>>>>
>>>> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/etoys-reference-manual/_edit/
>>>>
>>>> dissecting objects into components, documenting the components,
>>>> identifying the Squeak sources for Etoys objects, adding v5 objects,
>>>> explaining bugs and design deficiencies, noting further information
>>>> needed, and finding more topics to explain elsewhere. Review and
>>>> comments welcome. I expect to make another pass again after I work on
>>>> other aspects of Etoys and Squeak for a while.
>>>>
>>>> There was some confusion about my intention in creating a new chapter
>>>> for the book on Etoys Programming. I hope that my renaming the chapter
>>>> to Etoys Programming Tools will clarify that issue. As I said before,
>>>> and in the little bit I have written in the chapter, it is in no way
>>>> meant to teach how to program in Etoys, only to document how Etoys
>>>> supports software development. Other chapters describe elements of
>>>> this system (UI, scripting tiles, objects) piecemeal. This chapter
>>>> will give an integrated view of the Etoys IDE, including how it gives
>>>> access to Squeak, but will not attempt to explain Squeak programming.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edward Mokurai
>>>> (默雷/à ¤¨à ¤¿à ¤¶à ¤¬à ¥à ¤¦à ¤—à ¤°à ¥à ¤œ/نشبدگرج)
>>>> Cherlin
>>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>>>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> etoys-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>>>
>>> Rita Freudenberg
>>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج)
>> Cherlin
>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks
>> _______________________________________________
>> etoys-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/etoys-dev
>
> Rita Freudenberg
> [hidden email]