# Morph 3.0

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## Morph 3.0

 Hi Juan, Two thought have just come together and I am excited. >From morphic 3.o I was looking at the ivars for Location and comparing them to problems I've been working thru with making polygons tilt just like rectanges and ellipses. The problem I noticed with Location was that you had angle but no scale. >From my work with polygons I know that angle and scale are natural partners. xextent and yextent are not substitutes. Indeed they cause ambiguity because unless you look at the works you wonder if you turn the morph first then apply the extent scalers or the other way around. What I found was in any given operation you had to choose rotate and scale or stretch and reflect (That's what should happen when one of the extent scalers go negative) The other decision I realized from my work with polygons was to get polygons to truely rotate (with their submorphs doing the same thing) I had to collect the submorphs refernce locations and subject them to the same transformation as the polygon (rotate and scale or stretch and reflect) So the insight as I put your work and mine together came in the form of a question: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace           ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC_______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Morph 3.0

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## Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

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## Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs?

 In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4 Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? Actually the answer I came up with was that each has the other. Morphs don't have submorphs they have locations (this makes them resemble very much a polygon morph.) Locations in turn have morphs (for which they are a reference point.) This shift in thinking melts a ton of problems that morphic ran into. Including flex morphs. So each location is in a morph (or more precisely its coordinate system. That is the locations reference morph. So each morph is at a location in higher submorph. assertions " each location in a most one morph" "a morph can't be in two places at the same time" "a location is a sublocation of its owner" " each location in a morph belongs to that morph." also: "more that one morph may share a location." "locations must be appropriate to their owners co-ordinate system." Essentially morphs and locations alternate in a heirarchy tree. You could have a morph with bare locations. In which case it might display like a polygon would (one of my fancier ones see: http://209.143.91.36/super/724PolyFix02-wiz). Now I suspect doubling the depth of the tree will slow the works down but this is too early in the process to be concerned about speed. And if things work right then they can be tweaked to speed things along. The great advantage is the conceptual simplicity. And the rightness of the model from a real world point of view. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace   ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091_______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Morph 3.0

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## Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 In reply to this post by Jerome Peace Hi Jerome, Jerome Peace escribió: > Hi Juan, > > Cool. > > Thanks for listening. > > I've actually followed progress to know how much you > advanced things. (Real time performance and the color > background fix. Great steady progress.) > >   :) Thanks. > I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1. > I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need > to find out if you changed anything in th vm you > distribute with the system?   > >   Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is misleading. Ok. Done. So, you are doing a serious performance test there! Unfortunately, the Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on performance yet, so everything should be slow... > I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water > complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only > happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm > having better luck when I give the vm more room. >   I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right? > I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't > bounce then were golden. > >   Yep, here I am. > The last try missed probably due to some typing on my > part. >   Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish something soon. Cheers, Juan Vuletich _______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs?

 In reply to this post by Jerome Peace Jerome Peace escribió: > Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? > > Actually the answer I came up with was that each has > the other. > > Morphs don't have submorphs they have locations (this > makes them resemble very much a polygon morph.) > Locations in turn have morphs (for which they are a > reference point.) > > This shift in thinking melts a ton of problems that > morphic ran into. Including flex morphs. > > So each location is in a morph (or more precisely its > coordinate system. That is the locations reference > morph. > > So each morph is at a location in higher submorph. > >   This sounds very similar to what I'm doing. > assertions > > " each location in a most one morph" > "a morph can't be in two places at the same time" > "a location is a sublocation of its owner" > " each location in a morph belongs to that morph." > > also: > "more that one morph may share a location." > "locations must be appropriate to their owners > co-ordinate system." >   All these asserts are valid in Morphic 3, as it is today. > Essentially morphs and locations alternate in a > heirarchy tree. > >   Here is an implementation difference. To me, a location is an ivar in a Morph. > You could have a morph with bare locations. In which > case it might display like a polygon would (one of my > fancier ones see: > http://209.143.91.36/super/724> PolyFix02-wiz). > > Now I suspect doubling the depth of the tree will slow > the works down but this is too early in the process to > be concerned about speed. And if things work right > then they can be tweaked to speed things along. > > The great advantage is the conceptual simplicity. And > the rightness of the model from a real world point of > view. > > > Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace > >   I don't see the advantage of getting location in the morph tree, instead of doing as I did. I also think that M3 is conceptually "right". What problems do you see in M3? I saw PolyFix02-wiz. I like the WizagonMorph behavior. It is the one I believe correct. I you look at M3, my morphs rotate the same way, but resize slightly differently. With my implementation of coordinate systems, the code is much simpler, there's no need to go down every submorph to fix its location. Please play a while with my TestMorphs. Cheers, Juan Vuletich _______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Morph 3.0

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## Re: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs?

 In reply to this post by Jerome Peace On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 01:36:09PM -0700, Jerome Peace wrote: > assertions > > " each location in a most one morph" This assertion appears to conflict with > "a location is a sublocation of its owner" and > "more that one morph may share a location." if one is using world-relative locations. Is this not the case? What is a location? Parent morph + relative 2d location? Also, what is in a Parent morph? location + rotation + shear + scale?  or is there some more general transform system that could handle funky stuff like jiggly morphs, or allow morphs to be 2.5d? That would be nice. -- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808_______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 In reply to this post by Jerome Peace --- Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Jerome, > > Jerome Peace escribió: > > Hi Juan, > > > > Cool. > > > > Thanks for listening. > > > > I've actually followed progress to know how much > you > > advanced things. (Real time performance and the > color > > background fix. Great steady progress.) > > > >   > :) Thanks. > > I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running > OS9.1. > > I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I > need > > to find out if you changed anything in th vm you > > distribute with the system?   > > > >   > Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip > file. It is misleading. > Ok. Done. > So, you are doing a serious performance test there! > Unfortunately, the > Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I > haven't worked on > performance yet, so everything should be slow... Actually the iMac is well designed and the performance is responsive. I can resize the example at about the same speed as I am used to. Of Course there not a lot else going on at the same time. So its not much of a burden. The real problem is I can usually find things that bring everything to a screeching halt within 15 minutes. The copy handle is good for that. The balloon engine is probably the reason for the speed. Two or three version ago I did give up because things were too slow. The system is slow when not just displaying your morphs. Bringing up a browser or an inspector feels like it takes forever (compared to what I'm used to. lol). The balloon engine is also probably responsible for the clipping bugs. It has some very bad rounding errors in it. A lot bugs which I'm good enough to find but not knowledgable enough to fix. > > I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the > water > > complete with the macbomb system crash box. That > only > > happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm > > having better luck when I give the vm more room. > >   > I believe the same should happen with any Squeak > image, right?   > Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to > publish something soon. Cool. I'll keep following your progress. Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace         ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC_______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4 Juan did you check the unit used in Sophie. Because told me that their   units are quite good. Stef On 22 juin 07, at 03:11, Juan Vuletich wrote: > Hi Jerome, > > Jerome Peace escribió: >> Hi Juan, >> >> Cool. >> >> Thanks for listening. >> I've actually followed progress to know how much you >> advanced things. (Real time performance and the color >> background fix. Great steady progress.) >> >> > :) Thanks. >> I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1. >> I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need >> to find out if you changed anything in th vm you >> distribute with the system? >> > Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is   > misleading. > Ok. Done. > So, you are doing a serious performance test there! Unfortunately, the > Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on > performance yet, so everything should be slow... >> I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water >> complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only >> happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm >> having better luck when I give the vm more room. >> > I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right? >> I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't >> bounce then were golden. >> >> > Yep, here I am. >> The last try missed probably due to some typing on my >> part. >> > Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish   > something soon. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > _______________________________________________ > Morphic mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic_______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 In reply to this post by Jerome Peace Hi Jerome, Jerome Peace escribió: > >> performance yet, so everything should be slow... >>     > > Actually the iMac is well designed and the performance > is responsive. I can resize the example at about the > same speed as I am used to. Of Course there not a lot > else going on at the same time. So its not much of a > burden. The real problem is I can usually find things > that bring everything to a screeching halt within 15 > minutes. The copy handle is good for that. > > The balloon engine is probably the reason for the > speed. Two or three version ago I did give up because > things were too slow. > > The system is slow when not just displaying your > morphs. Bringing up a browser or an inspector feels > like it takes forever (compared to what I'm used to. > lol). > > The balloon engine is also probably responsible for > the clipping bugs. It has some very bad rounding > errors in it. A lot bugs which I'm good enough to find > but not knowledgable enough to fix. > > >   I think we need serious work on performance too. But now is too early for that in M3. WRT Balloon, it is great. It is fast and it is there. I know it has bugs, but now I'm focusing on the morph themselves. It is good to have balloon around to get morphs working. Later, maybe it could be replaced by Cairo as in Sophie. Or perhaps we can enhance Balloon. Or use some other engine. Neither Ballon nor Cairo are the final solution for M3 because they only support affine (i.e. linear) transforms. Cheers, Juan Vuletich _______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse-3 Hi Stef, You suggested that to me some time ago and I did. Sophie uses smallintegers for coordinates. This is ok for books, to go from printer pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float coordinates and multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same world. I don't want to be restricted to Cartesian with a single scale all over the system. In a morph, the number 3 could mean 3 milimeters, and in another it could mean 3 astronomic unit (mean distance from the earth to the sun), or 3 degrees of latitude north, or 3 db or whatever. Cheers, Juan Vuletich Stéphane Ducasse escribió: > Juan > > did you check the unit used in Sophie. Because told me that their > units are quite good. > > Stef > > > On 22 juin 07, at 03:11, Juan Vuletich wrote: > >> Hi Jerome, >> >> Jerome Peace escribió: >>> Hi Juan, >>> >>> Cool. >>> >>> Thanks for listening. >>> I've actually followed progress to know how much you >>> advanced things. (Real time performance and the color >>> background fix. Great steady progress.) >>> >>> >> :) Thanks. >>> I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1. >>> I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need >>> to find out if you changed anything in th vm you >>> distribute with the system? >>> >> Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is misleading. >> Ok. Done. >> So, you are doing a serious performance test there! Unfortunately, the >> Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on >> performance yet, so everything should be slow... >>> I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water >>> complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only >>> happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm >>> having better luck when I give the vm more room. >>> >> I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right? >>> I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't >>> bounce then were golden. >>> >>> >> Yep, here I am. >>> The last try missed probably due to some typing on my >>> part. >>> >> Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish >> something soon. >> >> Cheers, >> Juan Vuletich >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Morphic mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic> > _______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
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## Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

 On 23 juin 07, at 14:35, Juan Vuletich wrote: > Hi Stef, > > You suggested that to me some time ago and I did. Sophie uses   > smallintegers for coordinates. This is ok for books, to go from   > printer pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float   > coordinates and multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same   > world. I don't want to be restricted to Cartesian with a single   > scale all over the system. In a morph, the number 3 could mean 3   > milimeters, and in another it could mean 3 astronomic unit (mean   > distance from the earth to the sun), or 3 degrees of latitude   > north, or 3 db or whatever. I thought that they used something new with a strange name for having   better precision.... I cannot find the name anymore. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > Stéphane Ducasse escribió: >> Juan >> >> did you check the unit used in Sophie. Because told me that their   >> units are quite good. >> >> Stef >> >> >> On 22 juin 07, at 03:11, Juan Vuletich wrote: >> >>> Hi Jerome, >>> >>> Jerome Peace escribió: >>>> Hi Juan, >>>> >>>> Cool. >>>> >>>> Thanks for listening. >>>> I've actually followed progress to know how much you >>>> advanced things. (Real time performance and the color >>>> background fix. Great steady progress.) >>>> >>>> >>> :) Thanks. >>>> I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1. >>>> I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need >>>> to find out if you changed anything in th vm you >>>> distribute with the system? >>>> >>> Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is   >>> misleading. >>> Ok. Done. >>> So, you are doing a serious performance test there!   >>> Unfortunately, the >>> Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on >>> performance yet, so everything should be slow... >>>> I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water >>>> complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only >>>> happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm >>>> having better luck when I give the vm more room. >>>> >>> I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right? >>>> I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't >>>> bounce then were golden. >>>> >>>> >>> Yep, here I am. >>>> The last try missed probably due to some typing on my >>>> part. >>>> >>> Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish   >>> something soon. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Juan Vuletich >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Morphic mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic>> >> > _______________________________________________ Morphic mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic