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Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

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Peter Uhnak

Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

Peter Uhnak

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Speaking of buttons... The Hierarchy/Flat button and [] Class side isn't entirely consistent either.

And since everyone is used to it by now nobody will want to change it. :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

Franck Warlouzet

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

I agree about the class side button.

Franck

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:26:02 +0200
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Speaking of buttons... The Hierarchy/Flat button and [] Class side isn't entirely consistent either.

And since everyone is used to it by now nobody will want to change it. :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

Peter Uhnak

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Well my point is that if I see a button I know it will do something.

If I see a label I will ignore it, because it's just a label. I don't think it's a good UX to make it clickable.

(The only reason why Class side can get away with it is because there's checkbox next to it).

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Franck Warlouzet <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

I agree about the class side button.

Franck

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:26:02 +0200
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Speaking of buttons... The Hierarchy/Flat button and [] Class side isn't entirely consistent either.
And since everyone is used to it by now nobody will want to change it. :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by Franck Warlouzet

On 01 Aug 2015, at 13:25, Franck Warlouzet <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

but they are buttons, then they should look like one.

also… “Variables” (button or whatever) there just do not make sense (since is a “class” related action)… it increases confusion instead solving a problem.

we need a better general approach for those actions, maybe a toolbar or something like that… but as it is now it does not work.

Esteban

I agree about the class side button.

Franck

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:26:02 +0200
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Speaking of buttons... The Hierarchy/Flat button and [] Class side isn't entirely consistent either.
And since everyone is used to it by now nobody will want to change it. :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

<2015-08-01_122023.png>

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

stepharo

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak

Yes I think that we should do something to make sure that we understand
that this is a button.

Stef

stepharo

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Le 1/8/15 13:54, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :

On 01 Aug 2015, at 13:25, Franck Warlouzet <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

but they are buttons, then they should look like one.

also… “Variables” (button or whatever) there just do not make sense (since is a “class” related action)… it increases confusion instead solving a problem.

we need a better general approach for those actions, maybe a toolbar or something like that… but as it is now it does not work.

Yes we know.
Now there is a difference between a button popping something and one just acting on the default browser.

Esteban

I agree about the class side button.

Franck

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:26:02 +0200
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Speaking of buttons... The Hierarchy/Flat button and [] Class side isn't entirely consistent either.
And since everyone is used to it by now nobody will want to change it. :)

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

why are the new nautilus buttons not buttons?

<2015-08-01_122023.png>

They look like labels which is confusing.

Peter

Peter Uhnak

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:10 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 1/8/15 13:54, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :

On 01 Aug 2015, at 13:25, Franck Warlouzet <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

but they are buttons, then they should look like one.

also… “Variables” (button or whatever) there just do not make sense (since is a “class” related action)… it increases confusion instead solving a problem.

we need a better general approach for those actions, maybe a toolbar or something like that… but as it is now it does not work.

Yes we know.
Now there is a difference between a button popping something and one just acting on the default browser.

But does there need to be a distinction?

If I DON'T know what the button does, then distinction, unless it is well known, will not help me, because I will not know what the distinction means.

And if I DO know what it does, then I don't care about the distinction anymore.

So if you want to visualize it, then it must be something that is well known.

For example "Print ..." (dotdotdot) means "Clicking on this will not print immediately, but will open a new window with some more stuff.",

or the V triangle down signifies that it will open a dropdown menu.

And even with these minor UI/UX details, most people don't even realize it's there and will just memorize and internalize the process,

Peter

abergel

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by stepharo

Why not making the label text change color when the mouse is above? This cheap to do

Alexandre

> Le 1 août 2015 à 08:56, stepharo <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Yes I think that we should do something to make sure that we understand that this is a button.
>
> Stef
>
>
>

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak

On 01 Aug 2015, at 22:45, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:10 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 1/8/15 13:54, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :

On 01 Aug 2015, at 13:25, Franck Warlouzet <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or window.

but they are buttons, then they should look like one.
also… “Variables” (button or whatever) there just do not make sense (since is a “class” related action)… it increases confusion instead solving a problem.
we need a better general approach for those actions, maybe a toolbar or something like that… but as it is now it does not work.

Yes we know.
Now there is a difference between a button popping something and one just acting on the default browser.

But does there need to be a distinction?

If I DON'T know what the button does, then distinction, unless it is well known, will not help me, because I will not know what the distinction means.

And if I DO know what it does, then I don't care about the distinction anymore.

So if you want to visualize it, then it must be something that is well known.
For example "Print ..." (dotdotdot) means "Clicking on this will not print immediately, but will open a new window with some more stuff.",
or the V triangle down signifies that it will open a dropdown menu.

And even with these minor UI/UX details, most people don't even realize it's there and will just memorize and internalize the process,

+1000

is complete non-sense to change form of buttons just because they trigger a different action.

basically, all rules of UI design are against it.

Every year we have same discussion, and every year I point to the same readings:

- “don’t make me think”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Make_Me_Think

- the mac UI design guidelines. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/

there are many papers, research, etc. around this

but well… here is a *very* simplified summary of principles: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~matt/courses/cs563/talks/smartin/int_design.html

And even more simplified: Coherence (same metaphor), organisation (same layout), uniqueness (same elements)

So, a button is a button. If we present them as links, then ALL buttons should be a link. If they are “old-style” buttons, then ALL buttons should be old style.

Esteban

Peter

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by Franck Warlouzet

On 01/08/15 13:25, Franck Warlouzet wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons
> with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button
> changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or
> window.
>
> I agree about the class side button.

Every button in the Nautilus browser has lots of improvement potential.

It should be visually clear where a button applies to. Scoped applies to
the package pane, Variables to the class pane, Hierarchy/Flat to the
class pane, Class side to the methods and methods category pane and
comments to the text pane. The location of the buttons could reflect that.

It should be visually clear if a button represents a direct action, an
indirect action, shows a menu, represents a state change action or the
current state or opens a menu

The buttons should have hover texts explaining what the button does and
when it is (and not) applicable.

A button should react to left-click only, not to right-click (or with a
menu to right click).

And then there are also some Rubric widgets in the text pane that behave
somewhat like buttons.

And now for something completely different:
Why are the variables shown in reversed order? I rarely look for
users of DependentFields

Stephan

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

I just talked with Franck and we agree on trying to move most of those functionality to a toolbar… let’s hope this solves our small problem :)

Esteban

> On 03 Aug 2015, at 01:06, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 01/08/15 13:25, Franck Warlouzet wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Yes it looks a little bit 'lite' but we did not want to have 2 buttons
>> with the same look but two different kinds of actions. Hierarchy button
>> changes the window itself and variable and scoped open a new menu or
>> window.
>>
>> I agree about the class side button.
>
> Every button in the Nautilus browser has lots of improvement potential.
>
> It should be visually clear where a button applies to. Scoped applies to the package pane, Variables to the class pane, Hierarchy/Flat to the class pane, Class side to the methods and methods category pane and comments to the text pane. The location of the buttons could reflect that.
>
> It should be visually clear if a button represents a direct action, an indirect action, shows a menu, represents a state change action or the current state or opens a menu
>
> The buttons should have hover texts explaining what the button does and when it is (and not) applicable.
>
> A button should react to left-click only, not to right-click (or with a menu to right click).
>
> And then there are also some Rubric widgets in the text pane that behave somewhat like buttons.
>
> And now for something completely different:
> Why are the variables shown in reversed order? I rarely look for
> users of DependentFields
>
>
> Stephan
>
>

stepharo

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

You know in french we have this expressions"

"y a ka" = you just need to do

And this expressions conveys that it is way easier to say something than
to do something.

If you would really be nicer guys, you would congratulate franck for his
efforts to improve nautilus.
Because Nautilius is not easy and because we are trying our best.

Stef

Peter Uhnak

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:34 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

You know in french we have this expressions"

"y a ka" = you just need to do

And this expressions conveys that it is way easier to say something than to do something.

If you would really be nicer guys, you would congratulate franck for his efforts to improve nautilus.
Because Nautilius is not easy and because we are trying our best.

I don't see how that is relevant, because nobody is saying that what he has done is functionally bad. I like the provided functionality very much.

What I've done is that I've raised a question about user experience, because I felt that there is room for improvement. And as I am not an UX expert I wanted to hear opinions of others.

And this thread has clearly shown that there is different preference between form and function, which is fine, but just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make the discussion useless.

After all this just follows the formula

Make it work.

Make it right.

Make it fast.

> And this expressions conveys that it is way easier to say something than to do something.

This would be true if I said "It's bad and you should've done it better" and walk away, but I didn't do that.

I was trying to tackle a problem and get to the bottom of it.

Peter

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

In reply to this post by stepharo

Franck is doing a great work.
Now… that does not means we cannot have opinions :)

cheers!
Esteban

ps: that mail-waterfall just can means one thing: Stef is back!

> On 04 Aug 2015, at 21:34, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You know in french we have this expressions"
>
> "y a ka" = you just need to do
>
> And this expressions conveys that it is way easier to say something than to do something.
>
> If you would really be nicer guys, you would congratulate franck for his efforts to improve nautilus.
> Because Nautilius is not easy and because we are trying our best.
>
> Stef
>
>

Franck Warlouzet

Re: Nautilus new buttons not buttons?

Hi,

Thanks guys, but do not worry, I do not take opinions as critics. I learn in every domain so all questions and advices are helpful. I did not do real UI before Nautilus, so I think it is normal to make mistakes, but as I said, I learn from them and I will try to do my best to never do them again.

This is what is so good with Pharo, direct feebacks allow us to get better day by day (at least I hope I am really getting better).

When I am done with those buttons, you will not have buttons as labels anymore, I promise. ;-)

Cheers,

Franck

> From: [hidden email]

> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 22:18:16 +0200
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus new buttons not buttons?
>
> Franck is doing a great work.
> Now… that does not means we cannot have opinions :)
>
> cheers!
> Esteban
>
> ps: that mail-waterfall just can means one thing: Stef is back!
>
> > On 04 Aug 2015, at 21:34, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > You know in french we have this expressions"
> >
> > "y a ka" = you just need to do
> >
> > And this expressions conveys that it is way easier to say something than to do something.
> >
> > If you would really be nicer guys, you would congratulate franck for his efforts to improve nautilus.
> > Because Nautilius is not easy and because we are trying our best.
> >
> > Stef
> >
> >
>
>