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jannik laval

Nautilus usability

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).

I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

- About the package menu:

>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sence.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

My 2 cents,

Jannik

~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)

Re: Nautilus usability

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.
I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

jannik laval

Re: Nautilus usability

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

Cheer,

Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus usability

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:30 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

and it will be a settings for the release (to choose between the old and the new).

Opposite to Ben, I think the complex key mappings still need some study and enhancement... but that (also with a generalization of the keybindings package use) will be for 3.0/

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

I disagree. Debug mode is to debug nautilus and will fly away for release.

We want to encourage everybody to contribute with slices, so... it is well placed there, very visible :)

(maybe a submenu, but I don't want to remove it)

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

yep... looks like there is no time to make it idiot (esteban)-proof :)

but we make some good advances last days.

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

well, is not a lock, is a pin (icon is confusing)... it is to keep multiple methods around...

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

distinction between user and developer in pharo community are subtle... and you are in pharo-devs list, so you can add a bug entry ;)

best,

Esteban

Cheer,
Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by jannik laval

On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:

> Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
>
> Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
>

It does not work like that sorry jannik.
If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?

Stef

Peter H. Meadows

Re: Nautilus usability

Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.

On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:

> Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
>
> Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
>

It does not work like that sorry jannik.
If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?

Stef

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Nautilus usability

On 30 Jan 2013, at 12:45, "Peter H. Meadows" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.

Yes !

Using, testing, giving feedback, creating issues, improving documentation anywhere, anyhow are all *very* important contributions to any open source project and thus to Pharo.

Sven

> On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:
>
> > Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
> >
> > Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
> >
>
> It does not work like that sorry jannik.
> If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
> Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?
>
> Stef

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
http://stfx.eu
Smalltalk is the Red Pill

EstebanLM

Re: Nautilus usability

in fact "Report an issue" should also be an entry somewhere... like the WorldMenu, under "Help" :)

On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 30 Jan 2013, at 12:45, "Peter H. Meadows" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.
>
> Yes !
>
> Using, testing, giving feedback, creating issues, improving documentation anywhere, anyhow are all *very* important contributions to any open source project and thus to Pharo.
>
> Sven
>
>> On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:
>>
>>> Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
>>>
>>> Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
>>>
>>
>> It does not work like that sorry jannik.
>> If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
>> Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?
>>
>> Stef
>
> --
> Sven Van Caekenberghe
> http://stfx.eu
> Smalltalk is the Red Pill
>
>

Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by jannik laval

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:30 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

The browser is by nature a development tool :)

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

Take the first class to comment,

start: press space

type your comment

save (cmd+s)(it closes the window)

press arrow down

goto: start

Can't be faster :)

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

If you have time to make it work you are more than welcome

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

I will try to make it work, but with the lectures, it's a bit complicated :S

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

I though you was also part of the community :P

Ben

Cheer,
Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Moreover we have the APi in the core image now :)

(and we could reuse what I did for the Slice creator)

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

in fact "Report an issue" should also be an entry somewhere... like the WorldMenu, under "Help" :)

On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30 Jan 2013, at 12:45, "Peter H. Meadows" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.

Yes !

Using, testing, giving feedback, creating issues, improving documentation anywhere, anyhow are all *very* important contributions to any open source project and thus to Pharo.

Sven

On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

It does not work like that sorry jannik.
If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?

Stef

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
http://stfx.eu
Smalltalk is the Red Pill

jannik laval

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Seriously !

My english is probably not enough good to be comprehensive, and probably there are misunderstanding.

I know that when there is an issue I have to open a bug entry in the bug tracker. The mail I sent was about the usability more than bugs, and probably only my point of view.

Would I open an issue "What is a method in gray" ? Would I open an issue "there is too much items in the package menu" ? No, because it is my feeling, not a universal point of view.

You are right Esteban: having something in the worldMenu could help users to signal issues.

Thank you for your answers.

Jannik

2013/1/30 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>

in fact "Report an issue" should also be an entry somewhere... like the WorldMenu, under "Help" :)

On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 30 Jan 2013, at 12:45, "Peter H. Meadows" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.
>
> Yes !
>
> Using, testing, giving feedback, creating issues, improving documentation anywhere, anyhow are all *very* important contributions to any open source project and thus to Pharo.
>
> Sven
>
>> On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:
>>
>>> Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
>>>
>>> Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
>>>
>>
>> It does not work like that sorry jannik.
>> If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
>> Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?
>>
>> Stef
>
> --
> Sven Van Caekenberghe
> http://stfx.eu
> Smalltalk is the Red Pill
>
>

jannik laval

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:30 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

The browser is by nature a development tool :)

Don't be stupid. You know what I want to say.

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

Take the first class to comment,

start: press space
type your comment
save (cmd+s)(it closes the window)
press arrow down

goto: start

Can't be faster :)

You are right ! I am just surprised about that.

So this is not an issue :D

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

If you have time to make it work you are more than welcome

I have the same problem as you: lake of time !

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

I will try to make it work, but with the lectures, it's a bit complicated :S

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

I though you was also part of the community :P

A community is not a bug tracker but also all the communication around.

I just wanted to discuss and share my point of view.

Now, I am not sure it was a good idea.

Be cool, guys !

Jannik

Ben

Cheer,
Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

Benjamin Van Ryseghem (Pharo)

Re: Nautilus usability

On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:11 PM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:30 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

The browser is by nature a development tool :)

Don't be stupid. You know what I want to say.

I know, I was teasing you :)

The goal behind, as Esteban said, is to help people who wants to participate, even for "stupid" fix, like a typo, a comment, or just a temp var renamed.

We got the feeling that when we do such a fix, then we are "often" too lazy to open a bug entry, create a slice etc. Because indeed, the process is a bit too complex I think.

My point of view is that we can't complain that people are not involved if we do not ease at maximum the way to do it :)

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

Take the first class to comment,

start: press space
type your comment
save (cmd+s)(it closes the window)
press arrow down

goto: start

Can't be faster :)

You are right ! I am just surprised about that.
So this is not an issue :D

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

If you have time to make it work you are more than welcome

I have the same problem as you: lake of time !

The same as every one I think ^^ That the major problem of open source communities :)

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

I will try to make it work, but with the lectures, it's a bit complicated :S

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

I though you was also part of the community :P

A community is not a bug tracker but also all the communication around.
I just wanted to discuss and share my point of view.

I know :) Again, I was teasing you :D ( and I know you do not like the issue tracker :P)

I have not problem with opening bug entries from someone else mail ^^

Ben

Now, I am not sure it was a good idea.
Be cool, guys !

Jannik

Ben

Cheer,
Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

--
~~Dr. Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu

jannik laval

Re: Nautilus usability

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:11 PM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:30 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

2013/1/30 Benjamin <[hidden email]>

Ben

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Benjamin,

I am trying to use Nautilus and going to Pharo 2.0 (I am using 20480).
I have some remarks about the usability of the tool. I think the idea is cool and I begin to appreciate it.

But, I have some problems:

- When I am on a method and search senders (b,n). If there is only one sender, another browser is opened focusing on the sender of the method. But the method call is not highlighted. When I have to parse long methods, I loose time.

True :)

- About the keyboard shortcuts: please I need the same shortcuts everywhere… Not everywhere because I know it takes time to do that. BUT everywhere in nautilus itself. The shortcuts are not the same in the sourcecode panel (old shortcuts) and in the list of entities (new shortcuts).

As a user, I would like to have the possibility to disable the new shortcuts to have the same shortcuts everywhere in my environment.

It's implemented Nautilus side, but KeyBindings still need some love :)

- About the package menu:
>there is too much items: 4 items to add package in groups is too much. I would prefer one item (add as group) and a menu More.

> Why is there a "Search code" in "rewrite code" item ? The name does not make sense.

Probably comes from OB :)

And should be changed.

> Create Slice should be in the DEBUG mode. Which could be disabled in the Settings.

Debug mode ? Why ??

Or a different menu that is available for the core team or guys who need this feature.

I do not use it even if I am in a pharo sprint.

The browser is by nature a development tool :)

Don't be stupid. You know what I want to say.

I know, I was teasing you :)
The goal behind, as Esteban said, is to help people who wants to participate, even for "stupid" fix, like a typo, a comment, or just a temp var renamed.

We got the feeling that when we do such a fix, then we are "often" too lazy to open a bug entry, create a slice etc. Because indeed, the process is a bit too complex I think.

My point of view is that we can't complain that people are not involved if we do not ease at maximum the way to do it :)

- The "Show instance variables" and "Show class variables" does not show the variables but the accessors to the variables, no ?

Yes, as the other browsers did, but I can change the name ;)

Yes please

- Is it possible to have a popup on the icons in Nautilus. There is lots of icons that I don't know what they mean.

There are (or at least should, maybe a bug)

There are only on active icons. The others have no information popup.

- It is the same for the color of classes and methods: Why are there methods in gray ? classes in gray ?

Extensions

Thank you, but "in the browser" how can I know that ?

- The command "edit a comment", which is a clickable icon, opens a new window. I would prefer that it has the same behavior than the button "Comments": opening the comments in the same browser.

No, thanks to the popup and shortcuts, you can edit in a row a lot of classes very quickly

Not agree. We have too much opened window, and when I write a comment, I want to write ONE and write it well.

Take the first class to comment,

start: press space
type your comment
save (cmd+s)(it closes the window)
press arrow down

goto: start

Can't be faster :)

You are right ! I am just surprised about that.
So this is not an issue :D

:D

- in the lists of the browser, I would like to select multiple packages without using the mouse. Is it possible ? In all the browsers, the shift-up and shift-down can do that.

PluggableListMorph can't do that, but NewList can.

Unfortunately, I think the integration will be in 3.0

ARGhhhh

If you have time to make it work you are more than welcome

I have the same problem as you: lake of time !

The same as every one I think ^^ That the major problem of open source communities :)

- When I select multiple packages, the classes of all these packages should appear. Not only the ones of the last selected package.

There is a bug entry and discussion about that. Due to extension, it's quite complicated to due and raises some issues.

- what does the locker means in the source code editor ? I understood that the method cannot be modified… But I can, so I don't understand.

It's a feature not yet really used. You can pin a text panel, and have multiples. We need to polish that as well :)

It does not work fine. There are some UI issues (the top of the method is hidden because of the new buttons on the bottom of the window). If it is not used and polished, please remove it.

I will try to make it work, but with the lectures, it's a bit complicated :S

- The history navigator is not shared between browsers.

There is a bug entry for this

That is a good beginning I think.

I give you my point of view as a user of the browser. This is the main tool I am supposed to use in Pharo and I would like to not be frustrated using it.

You know I love feedback :)

Thank you

Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P

Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P

I though you was also part of the community :P

A community is not a bug tracker but also all the communication around.
I just wanted to discuss and share my point of view.

I know :) Again, I was teasing you :D ( and I know you do not like the issue tracker :P)

I have not problem with opening bug entries from someone else mail ^^

For sure, next time I will open a bug entry.

On my todo list: Open a bug entry for Nautilus :DDD

Cheers,

Jannik

Ben

Now, I am not sure it was a good idea.
Be cool, guys !

Jannik

Ben

Cheer,
Jannik

Thanks again

Ben

My 2 cents,
Jannik

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Nautilus usability

In reply to this post by jannik laval

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:01 AM, jannik laval wrote:

> Seriously !
>
> My english is probably not enough good to be comprehensive, and probably there are misunderstanding.

probably

> I know that when there is an issue I have to open a bug entry in the bug tracker. The mail I sent was about the usability more than bugs, and probably only my point of view.
> Would I open an issue "What is a method in gray" ? Would I open an issue "there is too much items in the package menu" ? No, because it is my feeling, not a universal point of view.

Now when we reach a consensus that there is something to improve, just add a bug entry.

>
> You are right Esteban: having something in the worldMenu could help users to signal issues.
>
> Thank you for your answers.
> Jannik
>
>
>
> 2013/1/30 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
> in fact "Report an issue" should also be an entry somewhere... like the WorldMenu, under "Help" :)
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 30 Jan 2013, at 12:45, "Peter H. Meadows" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe people don't realize that everyone is encouraged to use the issue tracker? At first I was a bit nervous about it, cos I was thinking 'this is only for devs'.
> >
> > Yes !
> >
> > Using, testing, giving feedback, creating issues, improving documentation anywhere, anyhow are all *very* important contributions to any open source project and thus to Pharo.
> >
> > Sven
> >
> >> On 30 January 2013 11:28, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:30 AM, jannik laval wrote:
> >>
> >>> Do you know what I like more ? Bug entries :P
> >>>
> >>> Here, I am a user. I take time to send you a mail, and I don't want to take time to open bug entries. You can do it if you think the ideas are good. :P
> >>>
> >>
> >> It does not work like that sorry jannik.
> >> If you use Pharo then opening bug entry to improve the system is the first minimal action from you.
> >> Do you simply imagine how much ben and us just spend on anything once you spend 2 min opening a bug entry?
> >>
> >> Stef
> >
> > --
> > Sven Van Caekenberghe
> > http://stfx.eu
> > Smalltalk is the Red Pill
> >
> >
>
>
>
>