Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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Need help with 1.3 Full Image
 
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Hi,
In the past, the build of the Full/Dev image was broken most of the time, leading to bugs being discovered late, bugs not fixed while everyone is using the system and getting bitten by them... Now the Dev/Full image exactly is a such a thing that has no bottleneck: it's just some load scripts loading third party tools/libs. Just editing scripts and bug the maintainers. Nothing else to do. So it should be fixed far faster and much easier than Core, as it can be done in parallel? Right? Right? Wrong. The only person doing anyting is Mariano... (and me, I fixed 1.2 Full after is was broken an *astonishing* 23 *days* !!!!) I personally think this really wants to tell us something, but that's just me. So what we need is people who look at this list: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=milestone=1.3-DevImage And *fix* the issues. Fast. I can not. Really not. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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> I personally think this really wants to tell us something, but that's just me.
Yes, indeed. Thank you for fixing all the things in Pharo 1.2. This is really important. I really don't understand why Pharo is pushing so hard towards Pharo 1.3 while even Pharo 1.2.1 is not really stable for daily work yet. The number of really critical bugs that appear in Pharo 1.2 every day makes me wonder how many people are just stuck with Pharo 1.1? :-( Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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Hi,
On 13 May 2011, at 09:37, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> I personally think this really wants to tell us something, but that's just me. > > Yes, indeed. Thank you for fixing all the things in Pharo 1.2. This is > really important. Indeed. Thanks, Marcus. > I really don't understand why Pharo is pushing so hard towards Pharo > 1.3 while even Pharo 1.2.1 is not really stable for daily work yet. > The number of really critical bugs that appear in Pharo 1.2 every day > makes me wonder how many people are just stuck with Pharo 1.1? :-( What kind of critical bugs are these? Cheers, Doru > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On May 13, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> I personally think this really wants to tell us something, but that's just me. > > Yes, indeed. Thank you for fixing all the things in Pharo 1.2. This is > really important. > > I really don't understand why Pharo is pushing so hard towards Pharo > 1.3 while even Pharo 1.2.1 is not really stable for daily work yet. Keep in mind that 1.2.1 is unchanged. Fixes are added to 1.2.2a, and due to a change in 1.2 (that was *a bad idea*!!!), you need to set the version number to 1.2.2a to see any updates. The first update of 1.2.2a fixes this wrong change. We should release 1.2.2 just to get this problem fixed and update updates again. Another thing I would like is to not have one rolling release for stable. that is, there is 1.2 update 12XXX And nothing else, fixes get pushed, images build by Hudson, no releases on that level. > The number of really critical bugs that appear in Pharo 1.2 every day There is no bug reported in 1.2 that is not already in 1.1: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=milestone%3D1.2.2 > makes me wonder how many people are just stuck with Pharo 1.1? :-( Maybe we need a dedicated stable team? From my financing, it would be hard to justify working purely on 1.2... I can work on 1.3, because we want to change the system to be something really great. But maintaining 1.2 is hard to justify as a researcher.... Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. |
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
On May 13, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> I personally think this really wants to tell us something, but that's just me. > > Yes, indeed. Thank you for fixing all the things in Pharo 1.2. This is > really important. > > I really don't understand why Pharo is pushing so hard towards Pharo > 1.3 while even Pharo 1.2.1 is not really stable for daily work yet. > The number of really critical bugs that appear in Pharo 1.2 every day > makes me wonder how many people are just stuck with Pharo 1.1? :-( uh? what are these bugs? I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. You were undermining our process sadly. Stef > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote: > > I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not > even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people > tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. > As a result, we will just never do a beta/rc1/rc2/rc3 phase again. When 1.3 will be released, it will be what used to be beta. And everyone who just uses releases will be therefore tricked into using it :-) Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- [hidden email] http://www.marcusdenker.de |
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;)
Stef On May 13, 2011, at 10:35 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not >> even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people >> tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. >> > > As a result, we will just never do a beta/rc1/rc2/rc3 phase again. > When 1.3 will be released, > it will be what used to be beta. And everyone who just uses releases > will be therefore tricked into > using it :-) > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- [hidden email] > http://www.marcusdenker.de > |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi Stef,
> uh? what are these bugs? From the top of my head these are all bugs that appeared in the past weeks and that were not present in Pharo 1.1: - temps and method selector changes that disappear and that are not logged in the changes file - text formatting that vanishes from larger texts - mouse selection that is broken - various OB bugs, such as broken smart chars, scroll bar, tests, text search, ... > I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not > even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people > tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. > You were undermining our process sadly. I was moving to a different place, starting with a new job, and learning new things. I don't have the energy and interest to constantly run after the latest releases. I want to use something stable to work with in the little spare time I have, and not be constantly disturbed by new problems that show up because something subtle changed. For me Pharo 1.2.x will be the last version until something really compelling shows up ... Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch |
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We will soon integrate RBEngine, AST, into core so you will have less to maintain.
Now for me, what is important is not the number of bugs but the ratio of new things/bugs and I think that it is pretty low when we take into account all the changes and improvements we did. Having a better textEditor is important. Now this is ok that you do not have time, we understand that too, I know what is to move, get a new job and be credible (I did that twice over the last 5 years) but then after we suffer that you start to complain after the release when we give 3 months of RC candidates. Stef On May 13, 2011, at 6:41 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > Hi Stef, > >> uh? what are these bugs? > > From the top of my head these are all bugs that appeared in the past > weeks and that were not present in Pharo 1.1: > > - temps and method selector changes that disappear and that are not > logged in the changes file > - text formatting that vanishes from larger texts > - mouse selection that is broken > - various OB bugs, such as broken smart chars, scroll bar, tests, text > search, ... > >> I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not >> even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people >> tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. >> You were undermining our process sadly. > > I was moving to a different place, starting with a new job, and > learning new things. > > I don't have the energy and interest to constantly run after the > latest releases. I want to use something stable to work with in the > little spare time I have, and not be constantly disturbed by new > problems that show up because something subtle changed. For me Pharo > 1.2.x will be the last version until something really compelling shows > up ... > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi, Thanks to push Marcus. What I'm thinking about is that it's a lot of energy to fix stuff about things we don't know. I rarely succeed in fixing something new (but I learn a little more every day :).
I tried to organize a Pharo sprint over internet / IRC for Pharo 1.2 but there was only Guillermo and me (cool indeed). But I continue to think it's a good way to fusion energy and more fun to fix stuff together (not alone).
Fixing bugs is a good way to learn, but easier with other people. So can we have some virtual sprints over Skype or IRC ? Laurent Marcus |
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> Thanks to push Marcus. Yes! > > What I'm thinking about is that it's a lot of energy to fix stuff about things we don't know. I rarely succeed in fixing something new (but I learn a little more every day :). > > I tried to organize a Pharo sprint over internet / IRC for Pharo 1.2 but there was only Guillermo and me (cool indeed). But I continue to think it's a good way to fusion energy and more fun to fix stuff together (not alone). > > Fixing bugs is a good way to learn, but easier with other people. So can we have some virtual sprints over Skype or IRC ? yes this would be fun. I think that we should have more virtual meeting to talk about key actions. |
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On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Another way is to create the "Fix Of The Day Contest", one day, one fix :) Laurent. |
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
lukas
another important point. Imagine that people would have tested their software during the RC phase then we would have spotted and fixed theses bugs (I do not take into account OB bug because we cannot maintain it). So at the end, if people do not use and tests then there is less chance to spot bugs and what can we do. To me this is like that and this is not a big issues. Now even with two full time engineers it would not change that much but we would have the same problem. Too many different scenario to explore. Now another really important point: we are not just maintaining a smalltalk but building an infrastructure for the next 10 years and we have limited amount of time (you know our job - this week I was 3 days in hiring meetings - important and now I accepted to be scientific head of our lab). So everybody is busy and working and I think that given these constraints we are doing a good job given that Pharo is not our only focus. We will soon apply systematically lint rules to pharo and will increase again the quality. Now if you want to join to build the next generation Smalltalk just join and have fun with us. I felt that you were pissed off but you should not get frustrated. We have 5 years to really do something really cool and we are doing. OPAL is moving again, the new package is going forward, igor is working on a new canvas to support zoomable interface, native boost, we will have a bootstrappable core, new network, files, new ClassBuilder, first class slots,..... Stef On May 13, 2011, at 6:41 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > Hi Stef, > >> uh? what are these bugs? > > From the top of my head these are all bugs that appeared in the past > weeks and that were not present in Pharo 1.1: > > - temps and method selector changes that disappear and that are not > logged in the changes file > - text formatting that vanishes from larger texts > - mouse selection that is broken > - various OB bugs, such as broken smart chars, scroll bar, tests, text > search, ... > >> I'm really surprised. I'm also surprised that you say that when you did not >> even tried to port your tools to 1.2 during the release candidate phase and that people >> tried and failed and you started to port your tool when 1.2 was released. >> You were undermining our process sadly. > > I was moving to a different place, starting with a new job, and > learning new things. > > I don't have the energy and interest to constantly run after the > latest releases. I want to use something stable to work with in the > little spare time I have, and not be constantly disturbed by new > problems that show up because something subtle changed. For me Pharo > 1.2.x will be the last version until something really compelling shows > up ... > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > |
Re: Need help with 1.3 Full Image
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In reply to this post by laurent laffont
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 2:25 AM, laurent laffont
<[hidden email]> wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> > Thanks to push Marcus. >> >> Yes! >> > >> > What I'm thinking about is that it's a lot of energy to fix stuff about >> > things we don't know. I rarely succeed in fixing something new (but I learn >> > a little more every day :). >> > >> > I tried to organize a Pharo sprint over internet / IRC for Pharo 1.2 but >> > there was only Guillermo and me (cool indeed). But I continue to think it's >> > a good way to fusion energy and more fun to fix stuff together (not alone). >> > >> > Fixing bugs is a good way to learn, but easier with other people. So can >> > we have some virtual sprints over Skype or IRC ? >> >> yes this would be fun. >> I think that we should have more virtual meeting to talk about key >> actions. > > > Another way is to create the "Fix Of The Day Contest", one day, one fix :) +1 I try to solve some issue in the issues tracker from time to time, but it's often difficult when outside your expertise. So doing it with others might definitively help. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/ |
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On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, but we aware we are all in the same situation. I have never contributed nor develop (more than fixing stupid bugs) to ANY of the projects/packages included in PharoDev. when outside your expertise. So doing it with others might definitively help. -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com |
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In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> wrote:
Fix of the day contest has the advantage of being compatible with every people timezone / agenda.
We can also synchronize CODTC and FOTDC in order to comment classes related to the fix. Now we just need someone to lead the FOTDC. I already do COTDC so is there a good soul ?
Laurent
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