Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Great idea! The parcels could even generate revenue as in-App purchases...
Joachim Steven Kelly <[hidden email]> hat am 15. April 2010 um 17:00 geschrieben: > Actually a rather nice incentive to finally build a real Smalltalk Runtime > Environment: > > 1) the VM > 2) minimal base image > 3) base parcels > > The base parcels would be supplied by Cincom, prereq'd by client apps, and > automatically fetched and installed by the base image when installing the > first client app that prereqs them. > > Client apps would consist of one or more parcels, zipped up together with > metadata and signed. > > Ah well, I can dream... > Steve > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:esug-list- > > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge > > Sent: 15. huhtikuuta 2010 17:49 > > To: ESUG Mailing list > > Subject: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior > > > > Hi Marten, > > > > you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the > > Smalltalks I know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler). > > So we could see and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests > > some documents (image) just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my > > former boss at ObjectShare said: Smalltalk is just C ;-) > > > > Maybe that's the way to go. > > > > Cheers > > Helge > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: [hidden email] [mailto:esug-list- > > [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten Feldtmann > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43 > > An: ESUG Mailing list > > Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior > > > > Hey, > > > > really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones > > with this problems - there are larger and more important communities > > (like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource > > ones (like FreePascal ones). > > > > But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and > > therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff > > may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this > > code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple > > store or stuff like this. > > > > But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do > > not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision. > > > > What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly > > bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that > > they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating > > systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive > > several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only > > available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple - > > and > > then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps > > other > > CPUs). > > > > Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker > > I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to > > use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way: > > Objective-C is not that bad I assume. > > > > Marten Feldtmann > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:[hidden email] Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
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In reply to this post by marten
Marten,
it's not about how many communities such a decision affects. It's about how much market share all these platforms represent in terms of revenue-generating (non-free) apps. Apple may be thinking: if somebody means it, they'll adopt Objective-C. And, on a side note: Objective-C is like Smalltalk for the rest of them. I must admit I have a hard time when I use it: the syntax feels strange and there's lots of stuff to be typed that has no meaning other than "we couldn't throw that out of C". It sometimes sucks like hell, especially since the german mac keyboards don't have all those important charactes printed on them, like curly braces or square brackets. Both are used all the time in Objective-C but you have to find them on the keyboard by experimenting... Joachim _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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[hidden email] a écrit :
> It sometimes sucks like hell, especially since the german mac keyboards don't > have all those important charactes printed on them, like curly braces or square > brackets. Both are used all the time in Objective-C but you have to find them on > the keyboard by experimenting... Hey, regarding the "User Experience" the mac keyboard is a nightmare, not to mention the unstability of the system... Hilaire _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
Excellent video Igor.
I think that if we are not even able to publish a statement on the esug web site stating that we are against this stupid regulation then we are nothing. Not saying anything is like to be dead and we are not dead. So we have to tell it. I hate this story oh yes they are a big group and they have money. The world can know that they are doing soemthing wrong and that we are hurt. Stef On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 15 April 2010 15:56, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: >> ok let us know. >> but may be we should stop developing software in Smalltalk and move to Javascript.... >> > That's what they actually want :) > "All your base are belongs to us" > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg > >> Stef >> >> >>> Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday >>> I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know. >>> At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful. >>> >>> On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> This is not the solution because I still buy macs... >>>> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple. >>>> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off >>>> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press >>>> and bad image for them and bad image is important. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >>>>> >>>>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Damien Cassou >>>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >>>>> >>>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >>>>> popular by not having them." James Iry >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>> >>> -- >>> =========================================================================== >>> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 >>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >>> =========================================================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
This is not the point.
Apple can do whatever they want we can mention that we are against. May be it will not change anything. but if lot of people would start to put on their web site some actions and that this is cross languages I do not see why we could not reach the beautiful image of apple. Stef On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:36 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Helge, > > maybe we should just see what John McIntosh will learn from Apple. > The VM is C, but especially in the case of Squeak, it's not "originally written" > in C. So in the end it's all just a question of interpretation. And since Apple > makes the rules, they tell us how to interpret their rules ;-) > I think there already was that rule that virtual machines aren't allowed on the > iPhone, but John somehow got his baby onto the device and into the AppStore. > > I guess the Smalltalk community doesn't count much in the eyes of Apple as long > as there is no substantially interesting mobile application available on any > platform. This can mean two things: they just say "no way, go play somewhere > else if you don't like Objective-C" or they say: "you're such a small harmless > gang, we don't care!". > > cu > > Joachim > > "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]> hat am 15. April 2010 um 16:49 geschrieben: > >> Hi Marten, >> >> you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the Smalltalks I >> know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler). So we could see >> and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests some documents (image) >> just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my former boss at ObjectShare said: >> Smalltalk is just C ;-) >> >> Maybe that's the way to go. >> >> Cheers >> Helge >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten Feldtmann >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43 >> An: ESUG Mailing list >> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior >> >> Hey, >> >> really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones >> with this problems - there are larger and more important communities >> (like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource >> ones (like FreePascal ones). >> >> But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and >> therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff >> may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this >> code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple >> store or stuff like this. >> >> But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do >> not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision. >> >> What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly >> bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that >> they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating >> systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive >> several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only >> available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple - and >> then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps other >> CPUs). >> >> Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker >> I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to >> use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way: >> Objective-C is not that bad I assume. >> >> Marten Feldtmann >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:[hidden email] > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Even though complaining about a company's behavior often has no effect, people should still complain when a company's actions hurt them in some way. If we don't say anything, people who are not programmers will not understand how Apple's decision hurts programmers.
-Ralph Johnson _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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+1
This is my point. On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Ralph Johnson wrote: > Even though complaining about a company's behavior often has no effect, people should still complain when a company's actions hurt them in some way. If we don't say anything, people who are not programmers will not understand how Apple's decision hurts programmers. > > -Ralph Johnson > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson
Now if apple is doing case by case agreement this is even worse
http://blogs.unity3d.com/2010/04/14/unity-and-the-iphone-os-4-0-update/ :) > Even though complaining about a company's behavior often has no effect, people should still complain when a company's actions hurt them in some way. If we don't say anything, people who are not programmers will not understand how Apple's decision hurts programmers. I will try to come up with a proposal because we should do something and ask for improvement. Now if one of you has a text that we can take as a basis let send it. Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
You could write a pretty high performance jitted Smalltalk
implementation on their JavaScript engine in JavaScript. It takes about 100 lines of JavaScript to create the Smalltalk metaclass/class model with all the right/proper inheritance behavior. Blocks, closures, classes, metaclasses, etc. Their engine is significantly faster than squeak in C. If you followed that path, it would then beg the question of how you might get a better javascript VM that enabled smalltalk like image loading. You can host their JavaScript engine in a ObjectiveC application and extend it. You might find a more likely path of support going down the "extend" Apple's JS engine path to support images/slices. David Simmons On Apr 16, 2010, at 3:34 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > This is not the point. > Apple can do whatever they want we can mention that we are against. > May be it will not change anything. > but if lot of people would start to put on their web site some > actions and that this is cross languages I do not see > why we could not reach the beautiful image of apple. > > Stef > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:36 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > >> Helge, >> >> maybe we should just see what John McIntosh will learn from Apple. >> The VM is C, but especially in the case of Squeak, it's not >> "originally written" >> in C. So in the end it's all just a question of interpretation. And >> since Apple >> makes the rules, they tell us how to interpret their rules ;-) >> I think there already was that rule that virtual machines aren't >> allowed on the >> iPhone, but John somehow got his baby onto the device and into the >> AppStore. >> >> I guess the Smalltalk community doesn't count much in the eyes of >> Apple as long >> as there is no substantially interesting mobile application >> available on any >> platform. This can mean two things: they just say "no way, go play >> somewhere >> else if you don't like Objective-C" or they say: "you're such a >> small harmless >> gang, we don't care!". >> >> cu >> >> Joachim >> >> "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]> hat am 15. April 2010 um 16:49 >> geschrieben: >> >>> Hi Marten, >>> >>> you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the >>> Smalltalks I >>> know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler). So we >>> could see >>> and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests some >>> documents (image) >>> just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my former boss at >>> ObjectShare said: >>> Smalltalk is just C ;-) >>> >>> Maybe that's the way to go. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Helge >>> >>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten >>> Feldtmann >>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43 >>> An: ESUG Mailing list >>> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior >>> >>> Hey, >>> >>> really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only >>> ones >>> with this problems - there are larger and more important communities >>> (like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other >>> OpenSource >>> ones (like FreePascal ones). >>> >>> But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and >>> therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff >>> may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this >>> code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple >>> store or stuff like this. >>> >>> But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you >>> do >>> not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple >>> decision. >>> >>> What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly >>> bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, >>> that >>> they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating >>> systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive >>> several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs >>> only >>> available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple >>> - and >>> then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps >>> other >>> CPUs). >>> >>> Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker >>> I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to >>> use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way: >>> Objective-C is not that bad I assume. >>> >>> Marten Feldtmann >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:[hidden email] >> Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de >> D-71640 Ludwigsburg >> Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
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David, good to hear from you.
Let's see... Let me argue we take a Scratch program since that is the creature at risk here. (a) Is this an interpreted language (Yes/No) if Yes see 3.2.2 Ok, let's take that Scratch language program and auto-translate into JavaScript somewhere.... (b) Is the "must be originally written" in Javascript, C, C++, or Objective-C (Yes/No) if No see 3.2.1 As you see the lawyer word games become confusing for all. Hence my unanswered question: "Is Javascript the only solution?" I of course might have missed something in my interpretation, so you're welcome to solve the word puzzle. On 2010-04-21, at 10:25 PM, smallscript wrote: > You could write a pretty high performance jitted Smalltalk implementation on their JavaScript engine in JavaScript. > > It takes about 100 lines of JavaScript to create the Smalltalk metaclass/class model with all the right/proper inheritance behavior. Blocks, closures, classes, metaclasses, etc. Their engine is significantly faster than squeak in C. > > If you followed that path, it would then beg the question of how you might get a better javascript VM that enabled smalltalk like image loading. You can host their JavaScript engine in a ObjectiveC application and extend it. You might find a more likely path of support going down the "extend" Apple's JS engine path to support images/slices. > > David Simmons -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com =========================================================================== _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
smime.p7s (3K)
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by smallscript
Hi dave
> You could write a pretty high performance jitted Smalltalk implementation on their JavaScript engine in JavaScript. > > It takes about 100 lines of JavaScript to create the Smalltalk metaclass/class model with all the right/proper inheritance behavior. Blocks, closures, classes, metaclasses, etc. do you have this code because I would like to read it? I want a mini core like the one you did in S#. So if one day you would open-source S# let us know. > Their engine is significantly faster than squeak in C. > > If you followed that path, it would then beg the question of how you might get a better javascript VM that enabled smalltalk like image loading. You can host their JavaScript engine in a ObjectiveC application and extend it. You might find a more likely path of support going down the "extend" Apple's JS engine path to support images/slices. > > David Simmons _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by smallscript
Hi David,
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:25 PM, smallscript <[hidden email]> wrote: You could write a pretty high performance jitted Smalltalk implementation on their JavaScript engine in JavaScript. That wasn't Gilad's experience in trying to implement Newspeak. The two major performance problems are non-local returns and numerics. Non-local returns require costly machinery to emulate. Numerics require boxing. So Gilad has found that a prototype JS implementation even above V8 is very slow, slow even compared to the Squeak interpreter.
cheers Eliot
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Let me clarify:
a) I am not done yet by any means. b) doesNotUnderstand: introduces significant overhead, since every message send needs to check for undefined and then either do the regular dispatch or the doesNotUnderstand: handling. c) non-local returns don't seem to be that bad. d) numerics seem to be a problem, but too early to quantify. I know of others who have gone through similar exercises with Ruby and Smalltalk. I haven't yet heard of a great success, even though the V8 engine is way faster than Squeak. There does seem to be a considerable cost to the translation, especially if you are strict about the semantics. I should know more in the not too distant future. On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Eliot Miranda wrote: Hi David, Cheers, Gilad _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by johnmci
Hello
I used small talk in the early noughties as part of the UK OPen University course. I always found it an underrated language. I Currently work for a large multinational as the main Finance Systems engineer, building intefaces improving performance,enterprise reports,upgrades implementations and migrations. Our platforms are 32 bit windows 2003 - mailnly wuth sql server 2005, some Oracle 11 for a particular project. to compliment VBA and SQL PLSQL can anyone advise my on: 1.A small talk application environment which is free to re-aquaint myself with the language and to build small control apps for kicking off server side processes such as bat files - stored procedures - 2. An enterprise small talk environment for the same - With user deployment on existing finance applications currently using New Atlanta servlets, JRE 1.5.@@ or possibly 1.6.@@ Also Tomcat servlet etc Thnaks from John John M McIntosh wrote: > Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday > I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know. > At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful. > > On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > >> This is not the solution because I still buy macs... >> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple. >> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off >> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press >> and bad image for them and bad image is important. >> >> Stef >> >> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse >>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >>>> >>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? >>> >>> -- >>> Damien Cassou >>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >>> >>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >>> popular by not having them." James Iry >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
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Dear John,
> I used Smalltalk in the early noughties as part of the UK Open > University course. I always found it an underrated language. I > Currently work for a large multinational as the main Finance Systems > engineer, building intefaces improving performance,enterprise > reports,upgrades implementations and migrations. Our platforms are 32 > bit windows 2003 - mailnly wuth sql server 2005, some Oracle 11 for > a particular project. to compliment VBA and SQL PLSQL can anyone > advise my on: > > 1.A Smalltalk application environment which is free to re-aquaint > myself with the language and to build small control apps for kicking > off server side processes such as bat files - stored procedures - VisualWorks Smalltalk non-commercial is free for non-commercial use, which includes learning and evaluation with a view to later, licensed commercial use. See http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/ (BTW, click the 'Smalltalk Daily' heading on that page for 'getting started' info). VisualWorks was the basis for the Open University course 'LearningWorks' IIRC, so may be the most familiar to you. VASmalltalk has a free time-unlimited evaluation license. See http://www.instantiations.com/VAST/index.html. GemStone is free even for small-scale non-UI commercial use, e.g. as a Seaside webserver, but its de-emphasis of UI may make it less suitable as a 're-learn Smalltalk' environment. See http://www.gemstone.com/products/gemstone. Squeak/Pharo is free. I strongly advise having a Squeaker on-hand and/or getting 'Squeak by Example' or a similar book if you go that route and are not already familiar with the environment. It is a powerful Smalltalk but trivial things in its tools and set up can stop you getting into it if you lack a guide in the early stages. See http://www.pharo-project.org/. Dolphin is commercial (but the license is not that expensive) and Windows-only (the others run on many platforms). See http://www.object-arts.com/. > 2. An enterprise Smalltalk environment for the same - With user > deployment on existing finance applications currently using New > Atlanta servlets, JRE 1.5.@@ or possibly 1.6.@@ Also Tomcat servlet etc VisualWorks Smalltalk is enterprise and used by the Kapital financial risk management application, see e.g http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-services/ It is also used in insurance applications and in other domains. VisualAge Smalltalk is enterprise and is used by the Northwater risk management application, see e.g. the article in http://old.esug.org/data/ReportsFromNiallRoss/NiallRossESUG2007report.pdf It is also used in insurance applications and in other domains. Gemstone provides persistence and etc. to both the above applications, and to many other demanding Smalltalk apps, and can be used standalone in server applications. Squeak has been used in some commercial products; I do not recall a specifically financial application. Dolphin is used in an east European stock exchange application and other commercial apps. This is not a complete list of Smalltalk environments; I'll let those more familiar with the others post on them. HTH. Yours faithfully Niall Ross > > > Thnaks from John > > John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. >> Later on Thursday I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are >> thinking and let you all know. At this point being irritated at them >> isn't helpful. >> On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> >> >>> This is not the solution because I still buy macs... >>> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do >>> a bad press to apple. This is more than 15 years that I use apple >>> machine and software and I'm pissed off >>> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over >>> a web page we can create bad press and bad image for them and bad >>> image is important. >>> Stef >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse >>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Damien Cassou >>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >>>> >>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >>>> popular by not having them." James Iry >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>> >> >> >> -- >> =========================================================================== >> >> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: >> squeaker68882 >> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> =========================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
> Squeak has been used in some commercial products; I do not recall a
> specifically financial application. I believe FinWorks is running a financial app on Pharo and GemStone. Check with Otto Behrens at http://www.finworks.biz/ -- Monty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Niall Ross" <[hidden email]> To: "ESUG Mailing list" <[hidden email]>, "jr1 rutherford" <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:42:06 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior Dear John, > I used Smalltalk in the early noughties as part of the UK Open > University course. I always found it an underrated language. I > Currently work for a large multinational as the main Finance Systems > engineer, building intefaces improving performance,enterprise > reports,upgrades implementations and migrations. Our platforms are 32 > bit windows 2003 - mailnly wuth sql server 2005, some Oracle 11 for > a particular project. to compliment VBA and SQL PLSQL can anyone > advise my on: > > 1.A Smalltalk application environment which is free to re-aquaint > myself with the language and to build small control apps for kicking > off server side processes such as bat files - stored procedures - VisualWorks Smalltalk non-commercial is free for non-commercial use, which includes learning and evaluation with a view to later, licensed commercial use. See http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/ (BTW, click the 'Smalltalk Daily' heading on that page for 'getting started' info). VisualWorks was the basis for the Open University course 'LearningWorks' IIRC, so may be the most familiar to you. VASmalltalk has a free time-unlimited evaluation license. See http://www.instantiations.com/VAST/index.html. GemStone is free even for small-scale non-UI commercial use, e.g. as a Seaside webserver, but its de-emphasis of UI may make it less suitable as a 're-learn Smalltalk' environment. See http://www.gemstone.com/products/gemstone. Squeak/Pharo is free. I strongly advise having a Squeaker on-hand and/or getting 'Squeak by Example' or a similar book if you go that route and are not already familiar with the environment. It is a powerful Smalltalk but trivial things in its tools and set up can stop you getting into it if you lack a guide in the early stages. See http://www.pharo-project.org/. Dolphin is commercial (but the license is not that expensive) and Windows-only (the others run on many platforms). See http://www.object-arts.com/. > 2. An enterprise Smalltalk environment for the same - With user > deployment on existing finance applications currently using New > Atlanta servlets, JRE 1.5.@@ or possibly 1.6.@@ Also Tomcat servlet etc VisualWorks Smalltalk is enterprise and used by the Kapital financial risk management application, see e.g http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/financial-services/ It is also used in insurance applications and in other domains. VisualAge Smalltalk is enterprise and is used by the Northwater risk management application, see e.g. the article in http://old.esug.org/data/ReportsFromNiallRoss/NiallRossESUG2007report.pdf It is also used in insurance applications and in other domains. Gemstone provides persistence and etc. to both the above applications, and to many other demanding Smalltalk apps, and can be used standalone in server applications. Squeak has been used in some commercial products; I do not recall a specifically financial application. Dolphin is used in an east European stock exchange application and other commercial apps. This is not a complete list of Smalltalk environments; I'll let those more familiar with the others post on them. HTH. Yours faithfully Niall Ross > > > Thnaks from John > > John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. >> Later on Thursday I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are >> thinking and let you all know. At this point being irritated at them >> isn't helpful. >> On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >> >> >>> This is not the solution because I still buy macs... >>> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do >>> a bad press to apple. This is more than 15 years that I use apple >>> machine and software and I'm pissed off >>> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over >>> a web page we can create bad press and bad image for them and bad >>> image is important. >>> Stef >>> >>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse >>>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Damien Cassou >>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >>>> >>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >>>> popular by not having them." James Iry >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Esug-list mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >>> >> >> >> -- >> =========================================================================== >> >> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: >> squeaker68882 >> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> =========================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Looks like Apple's behaviour is getting even worse. Could this be the
end of Smalltalk on the Mac? http://rixstep.com/1/20100424,00.shtml Cheers -- Joseph Pelrine [ | ] MetaProg GmbH Email: [hidden email] Web: http://www.metaprog.com When circumstances change, I change my views. What do you do? - John Maynard Keynes _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Hi,
On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Joseph Pelrine <[hidden email]> wrote: > Looks like Apple's behaviour is getting even worse. Could this be the end of > Smalltalk on the Mac? > http://rixstep.com/1/20100424,00.shtml not as long as Linux is still installable on Macs. :-P Regarding the article: ----- Developers planning on marketing software for 10.7 will submit their products to the App Store as iPhone and now iPad developers have already done. 10.7 will have kernel support for ('insistence on') binaries signed with Apple's root certificate. No software will be able to run on Mac OS X 10.7 without being approved and signed by Apple, Inc. ----- Is the conclusion valid? The kernel support will be there, but will it by default be enforced on everyone? I can imagine Apple will let users disable this feature, saying "well, you're on your own regarding security and such if you don't want approved and signed binaries ...". I'm not saying I like the idea, but after all, a Mac is still different from an iPhone. Or iPad. I don't believe this will be rigorously enforced. The current turmoil wrt. the mobile platforms gives rise to such dystopic visions, agreed, but it could be different, right? (Think about it this way. If the above were true, lots of people that simply do software development in, say, C on Macs would go away. I cannot imagine Apple are so stupid. But they have brilliant marketing strategists.) Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
RE: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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Just wondering, how are these certificates different from those you need
on Windows? If all that matters is that the executable is signed, and there is a way to get your certificate and sign your executable, then all you need is to sign the VM. It wouldn't be any different than what happens to Windows now, where VisualWorks and ObjectStudio VMs are signed. Or is there reason to believe *every* app will have to go through an approval process before it runs on OS X? How would that make sense for a developer shop that cranks out several builds every day? -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Haupt Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:49 PM To: [hidden email]; ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior Hi, On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Joseph Pelrine <[hidden email]> wrote: > Looks like Apple's behaviour is getting even worse. Could this be the > end of Smalltalk on the Mac? > http://rixstep.com/1/20100424,00.shtml not as long as Linux is still installable on Macs. :-P Regarding the article: ----- Developers planning on marketing software for 10.7 will submit their products to the App Store as iPhone and now iPad developers have already done. 10.7 will have kernel support for ('insistence on') binaries signed with Apple's root certificate. No software will be able to run on Mac OS X 10.7 without being approved and signed by Apple, Inc. ----- Is the conclusion valid? The kernel support will be there, but will it by default be enforced on everyone? I can imagine Apple will let users disable this feature, saying "well, you're on your own regarding security and such if you don't want approved and signed binaries ...". I'm not saying I like the idea, but after all, a Mac is still different from an iPhone. Or iPad. I don't believe this will be rigorously enforced. The current turmoil wrt. the mobile platforms gives rise to such dystopic visions, agreed, but it could be different, right? (Think about it this way. If the above were true, lots of people that simply do software development in, say, C on Macs would go away. I cannot imagine Apple are so stupid. But they have brilliant marketing strategists.) Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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In reply to this post by Joseph Pelrine
Some think this may be likely, several others do not, like here http://9to5mac.com/mac_like_iphone.
michel On 25 Apr 2010, at 21:23, Joseph Pelrine wrote: > Looks like Apple's behaviour is getting even worse. Could this be the end of Smalltalk on the Mac? > http://rixstep.com/1/20100424,00.shtml > > Cheers > -- > Joseph Pelrine [ | ] > MetaProg GmbH > Email: [hidden email] > Web: http://www.metaprog.com > > When circumstances change, I change my views. What do you do? > - John Maynard Keynes > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
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