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Hi!
Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be taken away from the core and put to library of its own. In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - jquery. All others are gone. Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed from list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to actually extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without jQuery (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but that library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be dependency-free then. Do you want it or rather not? Herby -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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me want as long as default init makes a nice thing. Phil Le 2 févr. 2015 22:47, "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
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+1 to decouple jquery and move Web to a library making init to include it as default would be historically sensible. Another option is to make init to ask the used if she want it included (and keep Y as default answer) from mobile -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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+1 to put Web into a library. A logical next step.
amber init question: 'Include Amber web framework (with jQuery)' (Y/n) On 2/2/15, seb <[hidden email]> wrote: > +1 to decouple jquery and move Web to a library > > making init to include it as default would be historically sensible. Another > option is to make init to ask the used if she want it included (and keep Y > as default answer) > > from mobile > >> On 02/02/2015, at 20:08, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> me want as long as default init makes a nice thing. >> >> Phil >> >> Le 2 févr. 2015 22:47, "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> a écrit : >>> Hi! >>> >>> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as >>> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be >>> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. >>> >>> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - jquery. >>> All others are gone. >>> >>> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package >>> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed from >>> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). >>> >>> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to actually >>> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without jQuery >>> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but that >>> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be >>> dependency-free then. >>> >>> Do you want it or rather not? >>> >>> Herby >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "amber-lang" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [hidden email]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
I would only agree without the question, included always. Only users that _positively know_ they do not want it there should be able to remove it. Other must have it there, batteries included.
"H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]>napísal/a: >+1 to put Web into a library. A logical next step. > >amber init question: 'Include Amber web framework (with jQuery)' (Y/n) > >On 2/2/15, seb <[hidden email]> wrote: >> +1 to decouple jquery and move Web to a library >> >> making init to include it as default would be historically sensible. Another >> option is to make init to ask the used if she want it included (and keep Y >> as default answer) >> >> from mobile >> >>> On 02/02/2015, at 20:08, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> me want as long as default init makes a nice thing. >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> Le 2 févr. 2015 22:47, "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> a écrit : >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as >>>> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be >>>> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. >>>> >>>> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - jquery. >>>> All others are gone. >>>> >>>> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package >>>> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed from >>>> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). >>>> >>>> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to actually >>>> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without jQuery >>>> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but that >>>> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be >>>> dependency-free then. >>>> >>>> Do you want it or rather not? >>>> >>>> Herby >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "amber-lang" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [hidden email]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "amber-lang" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [hidden email]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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@herby I agree. Batteries included. Question is not necessary. For
those who want it without they (e.g. me) should have enough knowledge to remove it themselves. On 2/3/15, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > I would only agree without the question, included always. Only users that > _positively know_ they do not want it there should be able to remove it. > Other must have it there, batteries included. > > "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]>napísal/a: > >>+1 to put Web into a library. A logical next step. >> >>amber init question: 'Include Amber web framework (with jQuery)' (Y/n) >> >>On 2/2/15, seb <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> +1 to decouple jquery and move Web to a library >>> >>> making init to include it as default would be historically sensible. >>> Another >>> option is to make init to ask the used if she want it included (and keep >>> Y >>> as default answer) >>> >>> from mobile >>> >>>> On 02/02/2015, at 20:08, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> me want as long as default init makes a nice thing. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> Le 2 févr. 2015 22:47, "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> a écrit : >>>>> Hi! >>>>> >>>>> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as >>>>> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be >>>>> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. >>>>> >>>>> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - >>>>> jquery. >>>>> All others are gone. >>>>> >>>>> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package >>>>> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed >>>>> from >>>>> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). >>>>> >>>>> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to >>>>> actually >>>>> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without >>>>> jQuery >>>>> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but >>>>> that >>>>> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be >>>>> dependency-free then. >>>>> >>>>> Do you want it or rather not? >>>>> >>>>> Herby >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "amber-lang" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to [hidden email]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "amber-lang" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to [hidden email]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "amber-lang" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an >>> email to [hidden email]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >>-- >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: I would only agree without the question, included always. Only users that _positively know_ they do not want it there should be able to remove it. Other must have it there, batteries included. That would be compatible with all the presentations we've done so far BTW. Phil
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
I can live either way but the question with the default in YES has two functions: 1. It address the batteries included intention 2. Informs the possibility of Amber not using that library to those who yet don’t know that it got decoupled and is optional. Of course you can choose to hide Amber init assumption. If your product succeeds, every assumption your product makes that the new guy doesn’t know is going to bit you on questions later. The solution for that is to be informative on the spot (best ideal solution) or great documentation (expensive and prone to not be found). Of course you can also completely fail to get new guys so they don’t bother you with what you think are stupid questions but I don’t think this last strategy is going to take us anywhere. That’s why I suggest keeping the init question for it :) You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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sebastian wrote: > >> On Feb 3, 2015, at 7:02 AM, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> I would only agree without the question, included always. Only users >> that _positively know_ they do not want it there should be able to >> remove it. Other must have it there, batteries included. > > I can live either way but the question with the default in YES has two > functions: > > 1. It address the batteries included intention > 2. Informs the possibility of Amber /not/ using that library to those > who yet don’t know that it got decoupled and is optional. > > Of course you can choose to hide Amber init assumption. > > If your product succeeds, every assumption your product makes that the > new guy doesn’t know is going to bit you on questions later. The > solution for that is to be informative on the spot (best ideal > solution) or great documentation (expensive and prone to not be > found). Of course you can also completely fa > don’t bother you with what you think are stupid questions but I don’t > think this last strategy is going to take us anywhere. > > That’s why I suggest keeping the init question for it :) "No question" is a decision done by design. Beginner user of Amber should _not_ think about removing Web library from Amber. First, because it will increase his congitive load*, second, because Web package is the fundamental Smalltalk-level a-la-Seaside layer of doing the page building. Amber should be Smalltalk, not a dumb jQuery (or whatever else) wrapper. Advanced-level user will see it is just a library added by default and can choose itself if to use it or not. There can be how-tos done by alternative build-and-maipulate-web-page Amber libraries creators which tell this kind of user how to take default Web away and use their thing instead. Herby * And make bad impression of "they don't know what they want". For me, if I started with the product t elling me it is "Foo for Web" and it would ask me if to use library to build Web pages, I would feel authors are band of idiots. P.S.: The less questions, the better. Maybe I should review existing ones and prune some of them... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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+1 Norbert You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Unfortunately, this must be postponed if ever done. In fact, jQuery is very important dependency - not because of DOM stuff, but because it makes PlatformInterface ajax: working which is used somewhere inside Package >> commit. Things must be redesigned a bit.
Sad thing is, even if jQuery could be cut out, therre still will be a dependency to some other library, as doing HTTP PUT directly is silly - libraries are there to make things cross-browser (or even working in node, maybe https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/issues/1070 may need revisiting. Herby Dňa 2. februára 2015 22:46:59 CET používateľ "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> napísal: > Hi! > > Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as > possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be > > taken away from the core and put to library of its own. > > In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - > jquery. > All others are gone. > > Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package > actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed > from > list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). > > So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to > actually > extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without > jQuery > (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but > that > library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be > dependency-free then. > > Do you want it or rather not? > > Herby -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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In the end posponig might be the best strategy Herby.
By the time we get ECMA6 adopted, all will be easier to go pure JavaScript and do great things from mobile > On 14/02/2015, at 09:52, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Unfortunately, this must be postponed if ever done. In fact, jQuery is very important dependency - not because of DOM stuff, but because it makes PlatformInterface ajax: working which is used somewhere inside Package >> commit. Things must be redesigned a bit. > > Sad thing is, even if jQuery could be cut out, therre still will be a dependency to some other library, as doing HTTP PUT directly is silly - libraries are there to make things cross-browser (or even working in node, maybe https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/issues/1070 may need revisiting. > > Herby > > Dňa 2. februára 2015 22:46:59 CET používateľ "Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]> napísal: >> Hi! >> >> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as >> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be >> >> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. >> >> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - >> jquery. >> All others are gone. >> >> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package >> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed >> from >> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). >> >> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to >> actually >> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without >> jQuery >> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but >> that >> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be >> dependency-free then. >> >> Do you want it or rather not? >> >> Herby > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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I would love to see the dependency on jQuery go away, but agree it should be included in the default init (with no question). Isn't package commit only used in the devel mode? I don't care if jQuery is included then, but I would really like to be able to easily lose it in deploy mode as we don't use it (or Canvas). ../Dave ../Dave On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 7:37 AM, seb <[hidden email]> wrote: In the end posponig might be the best strategy Herby. You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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On 2/14/15, Dave Mason <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would love to see the dependency on jQuery go away, but agree it should > be included in the default init (with no question). +1 > Isn't package commit only used in the devel mode? I don't care if jQuery > is included then, but I would really like to be able to easily lose it in > deploy mode as we don't use it (or Canvas). +1 > ../Dave > > ../Dave > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 7:37 AM, seb <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> In the end posponig might be the best strategy Herby. >> By the time we get ECMA6 adopted, all will be easier to go pure >> JavaScript >> and do great things >> >> from mobile >> >> > On 14/02/2015, at 09:52, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> > Unfortunately, this must be postponed if ever done. In fact, jQuery is >> very important dependency - not because of DOM stuff, but because it >> makes >> PlatformInterface ajax: working which is used somewhere inside Package >> >> commit. Things must be redesigned a bit. >> > >> > Sad thing is, even if jQuery could be cut out, therre still will be a >> dependency to some other library, as doing HTTP PUT directly is silly - >> libraries are there to make things cross-browser (or even working in >> node, >> maybe https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/issues/1070 may need >> revisiting. >> > >> > Herby >> > >> > Dňa 2. februára 2015 22:46:59 CET používateľ "Herby Vojčík" < >> [hidden email]> napísal: >> >> Hi! >> >> >> >> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little dependencies as >> >> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things can be >> >> >> >> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. >> >> >> >> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - >> >> jquery. >> >> All others are gone. >> >> >> >> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one package >> >> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already removed >> >> from >> >> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). >> >> >> >> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to >> >> actually >> >> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without >> >> jQuery >> >> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, but >> >> that >> >> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would be >> >> dependency-free then. >> >> >> >> Do you want it or rather not? >> >> >> >> Herby >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "amber-lang" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to [hidden email]. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
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Dňa 14. februára 2015 16:09:18 CET používateľ "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]> napísal: > On 2/14/15, Dave Mason <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I would love to see the dependency on jQuery go away, but agree it > should > > be included in the default init (with no question). > > +1 > > > Isn't package commit only used in the devel mode? I don't care if > jQuery > > is included then, but I would really like to be able to easily lose > it in > > deploy mode as we don't use it (or Canvas). > > +1 Taking HTMLCanvas and friends away is no problem. But jQuery / package commit is another thing. First, it is good to note that "deploy mode" and "devel mode" are only preconfigured convenience states of the project (preconfigured by tasks in `amber init` generated Gruntfile and using deploy.js and devel.js. Amber in itself can run in numerous other configurations. Second, you may need Package commit functionality in those other configurations (debugging running project, committing from repl, you name it - for correctness it must be said that committing from CLI would need to be based on other library than jQuery, but see "third"). Third, what us now PlatformInterface ajax: and may be change for another API (but still an API working in _all_ configurations of Amber), is the http client API, and that is something you need many other times. And this API is what now depends on jQuery. So unless it is all somehow redesigned, jQuery is needed. You may say it is external functionality, but in Web world I would disagree. Amber must have its canonical cross platform http client API and its implementations. It can be something different than jQuery, see link in previous post. > > > ../Dave > > > > ../Dave > > > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 7:37 AM, seb <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > >> In the end posponig might be the best strategy Herby. > >> By the time we get ECMA6 adopted, all will be easier to go pure > >> JavaScript > >> and do great things > >> > >> from mobile > >> > >> > On 14/02/2015, at 09:52, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Unfortunately, this must be postponed if ever done. In fact, > jQuery is > >> very important dependency - not because of DOM stuff, but because > it > >> makes > >> PlatformInterface ajax: working which is used somewhere inside > Package >> > >> commit. Things must be redesigned a bit. > >> > > >> > Sad thing is, even if jQuery could be cut out, therre still will > be a > >> dependency to some other library, as doing HTTP PUT directly is > silly - > >> libraries are there to make things cross-browser (or even working > in > >> node, > >> maybe https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber/issues/1070 may need > >> revisiting. > >> > > >> > Herby > >> > > >> > Dňa 2. februára 2015 22:46:59 CET používateľ "Herby Vojčík" < > >> [hidden email]> napísal: > >> >> Hi! > >> >> > >> >> Some people like if Amber itself would have as little > dependencies as > >> >> possible. Now that things are really composable, lots of things > can be > >> >> > >> >> taken away from the core and put to library of its own. > >> >> > >> >> In bower.json of Amber, there is now only one dependency left - > >> >> jquery. > >> >> All others are gone. > >> >> > >> >> Now, you may think jQuery is fundamental but no - only one > package > >> >> actually uses jQuery - Web (and 'jQuery' itself is already > removed > >> >> from > >> >> list of 'accept everywhere' global variables in current master). > >> >> > >> >> So, there _is_ a possibility, if you think it's beneficial, to > >> >> actually > >> >> extract Web library to its own repository and have Amber without > >> >> jQuery > >> >> (and without HTMLCanvas, which must be brought in from library, > but > >> >> that > >> >> library can be included by default in amber init). Amber would > be > >> >> dependency-free then. > >> >> > >> >> Do you want it or rather not? > >> >> > >> >> Herby > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >> Groups "amber-lang" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send > >> an email to [hidden email]. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "amber-lang" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an > >> email to [hidden email]. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "amber-lang" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an > > email to [hidden email]. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. 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