OSCON report

> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would take,
> I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/screencast that
> was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
> would be fine)

> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been up
> to for the last week.
>
> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON conference.
> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but rather
> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -
> like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model (hm,
> never noticed all those C's before) - for use in their environment of
> choice.  However, interest was high enough that:
>
> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in the room
> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
> about Seaside and Smalltalk
> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing the
> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
> Squeak demo
>
> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they
> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to make
> the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no
> prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World
> Seaside app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also a
> huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of things
> like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe that the
> image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is
> understandably leery of this.
>
> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would
> take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need
> to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
> would be fine)
>
> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,
> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>
> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big
> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say
> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other people
> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>
> Avi
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we  
> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been  
> up to for the last week.
>
> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON  
> conference.  I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not  
> towards convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc,  
> but rather towards getting them to consider some of the basic  
> technologies - like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and  
> Continuation model (hm, never noticed all those C's before) - for  
> use in their environment of choice.  However, interest was high  
> enough that:
>
> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at  
> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in the  
> room
> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner  
> about Seaside and Smalltalk
> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing  
> the next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing  
> a Squeak demo
>
> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried  
> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they  
> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to  
> make the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it  
> was impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with  
> no prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World  
> Seaside app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also  
> a huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of  
> things like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe  
> that the image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is  
> understandably leery of this.
>
> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish  
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a  
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large  
> if) we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it  
> would take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would  
> need to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial  
> would be fine)
>
> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,  
> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>
> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big  
> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say  
> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other  
> people are doing all the question answering, discussing, and  
> committing".  That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to  
> cross, I think.

> Thanks for the update Avi.  Good to hear.  I've been convinced for a
> long time that the more attention Ruby/Python get the better off
> Smalltalk is.  It will help to break the static branches of
> programming and will bring a larger mind share into the late-binding
> camping.
>
> I've got a screencast in the queue to address the issue of learning
> Smalltalk.  This is motived by Ralph Johnson's post
> (http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-May/ 
> 104071.htm).
> Smalltalk is so radically different that the conventional ways of
> learning a new programming language are not applicable.  Tutorials and
> api documentation are the main ways of learning most envirionments.
> In Smalltalk, the trick is learning how to browse the image and
> experiment with running code using the workspace and the inspectors.
> I think this is more effective once you figure out how to do it.
>
> The thing that is killing me with Rails is not being able to read the
> code I'm relying on.  I can open a text on editor on the source once I
> find it, but this brutally primitive compared to what comes for free
> with Smalltalk.  Porting ActiveRecord to Smalltalk with its own
> browser would really leap frog what is available in Ruby.  Someone
> will write a good IDE for Ruby and Rails.  It's inevitable.  However,
> given the heavy reliance on runtime code generation in both Ruby and
> Rails,  it seems to me to be a really challenging prospect.  Not only
> do you have to deal with dynamic typing.  The definition of a lot
> classes only exist at runtime.  In Smalltalk, we can do that, but it
> is done far less frequently than in Ruby. I would rather just port
> ActiveRecord.
>
> I'll get a screencast together tomorrow and post a link on this list
> and squeak-dev for feedback.
>
> - Wilkes
>
> BTW, I prefer Sails to StOR.
>
> On 7/29/06, Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
>> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been up
>> to for the last week.
>>
>> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON conference.
>> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
>> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but rather
>> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -
>> like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model (hm,
>> never noticed all those C's before) - for use in their environment of
>> choice.  However, interest was high enough that:
>>
>> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
>> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
>> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in  
>> the room
>> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
>> about Seaside and Smalltalk
>> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing the
>> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
>> Squeak demo
>>
>> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
>> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they
>> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to make
>> the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
>> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no
>> prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World
>> Seaside app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also a
>> huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of things
>> like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe that the
>> image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is
>> understandably leery of this.
>>
>> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
>> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
>> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
>> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would
>> take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
>> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need
>> to cover:
>>
>> - The browser
>> - The workspace
>> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
>> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
>> would be fine)
>>
>> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,
>> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>>
>> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big
>> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say
>> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other people
>> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
>> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>>
>> Avi
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>> - The browser
>> - The workspace
>> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
>> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside"  
>> tutorial  would be fine)
>> Avi
>
> You're absolutely correct, but I think you need to cover a little  
> more ground on Smalltalk...
>
>  - A small lesson in image style development and maintenance, this  
> is a HUGE change for them and needs to be addressed. For a newbie  
> the image is far to easy to crash and recovering changes from the  
> change log isn't something that just jumps out at you, I lost quite  
> a bit of code before discovering the change log.
>
>  - Publishing a Seaside app using Apache/Stunnel.  They'll freak  
> when they find out Squeak can't do SSL natively, best to  
> acknowledge that early and get them thinking of Seaside as sort of  
> a dynamic page generation framework that you use in conjunction  
> with Apache/Stunnel. If they're coming from a windows background  
> where "lot's of little tools that work well together" is not how  
> things are normally done, they're going to expect Squeak to do  
> everything, I did.
>
> If you do a custom image, there's a few packages that I think a web  
> developer would appreciate pre-installed beyond Seaside/Scriptaculous
>
>  - KeyBinder
>  - ODBC
>  - PieChart
>  - PlotMorph
>  - Shout
>  - eCompletion
>  - SoapCoreClient
>  - Yaxo
>
> With maybe a few pre-bound hot keys to get the environment going  
> for them, say for launching Monticello, or maybe opening a browser/
> transcript/workspace and sizing them appropriately giving it a more  
> traditional IDE feel.  Make them feel more comfortable until they  
> get a deeper grasp on how all this stuff really works.  Maybe even  
> Cee's Refractoring Browser with most of the Smalltalk categories  
> hidden and only Seaside categories visible initially, might make it  
> seem less daunting.
>
> I think there is a mainstream audience for Seaside as well, I've  
> been showing it off at work lately and interest seems high, people  
> are sick of traditional style web development, most just don't know  
> better things exist.  It'd be nice if Smalltalk made a resurgence  
> by showing them the way.  I know I'm hooked, this is the language  
> for me, nothing else even comes close.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we  
> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been up  to
> for the last week.
>
> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON conference.   I
> gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards  convincing
> people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but rather  towards
> getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -  like the the
> Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model (hm,  never noticed
> all those C's before) - for use in their environment of  choice.  
> However, interest was high enough that:
>
> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at  
> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in the room
> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner  
> about Seaside and Smalltalk
> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing the  
> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a  Squeak
> demo
>
> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried  Squeak
> before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they  saw in my
> (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to make  the journey
> themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was  impossible for
> them to just download a Squeak image and, with no  prior Smalltalk
> experience, find their way through a Hello World  Seaside app.  So they
> decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also a  huge amount of
> confusion and disinformation about the state of things  like version
> control: essentially everyone seems to believe that the  image is the
> only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is  understandably leery of
> this.
>
> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish  
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a  
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)  we
> want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would  take, I
> think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/ screencast that was
> aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need  to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial  
> would be fine)
>
> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,  but
> I think the above is a higher priority.
>
> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big  the
> Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say  "well,
> I almost never post to the list anymore, because other people  are doing
> all the question answering, discussing, and committing".   That's pretty
> cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>
> Avi

> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would take,
> I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/screencast that
> was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
> would be fine)

> Stef
>
>
> On 30 juil. 06, at 03:48, Wilkes Joiner wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the update Avi.  Good to hear.  I've been convinced for a
> > long time that the more attention Ruby/Python get the better off
> > Smalltalk is.  It will help to break the static branches of
> > programming and will bring a larger mind share into the late-binding
> > camping.
> >
> > I've got a screencast in the queue to address the issue of learning
> > Smalltalk.  This is motived by Ralph Johnson's post
> > (http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-May/
> > 104071.htm).
> > Smalltalk is so radically different that the conventional ways of
> > learning a new programming language are not applicable.  Tutorials and
> > api documentation are the main ways of learning most envirionments.
> > In Smalltalk, the trick is learning how to browse the image and
> > experiment with running code using the workspace and the inspectors.
> > I think this is more effective once you figure out how to do it.
> >
> > The thing that is killing me with Rails is not being able to read the
> > code I'm relying on.  I can open a text on editor on the source once I
> > find it, but this brutally primitive compared to what comes for free
> > with Smalltalk.  Porting ActiveRecord to Smalltalk with its own
> > browser would really leap frog what is available in Ruby.  Someone
> > will write a good IDE for Ruby and Rails.  It's inevitable.  However,
> > given the heavy reliance on runtime code generation in both Ruby and
> > Rails,  it seems to me to be a really challenging prospect.  Not only
> > do you have to deal with dynamic typing.  The definition of a lot
> > classes only exist at runtime.  In Smalltalk, we can do that, but it
> > is done far less frequently than in Ruby. I would rather just port
> > ActiveRecord.
> >
> > I'll get a screencast together tomorrow and post a link on this list
> > and squeak-dev for feedback.
> >
> > - Wilkes
> >
> > BTW, I prefer Sails to StOR.
> >
> > On 7/29/06, Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
> >> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been up
> >> to for the last week.
> >>
> >> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON conference.
> >> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
> >> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but rather
> >> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -
> >> like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model (hm,
> >> never noticed all those C's before) - for use in their environment of
> >> choice.  However, interest was high enough that:
> >>
> >> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
> >> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
> >> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in
> >> the room
> >> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
> >> about Seaside and Smalltalk
> >> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing the
> >> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
> >> Squeak demo
> >>
> >> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
> >> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they
> >> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to make
> >> the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
> >> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no
> >> prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World
> >> Seaside app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also a
> >> huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of things
> >> like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe that the
> >> image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is
> >> understandably leery of this.
> >>
> >> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
> >> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
> >> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
> >> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would
> >> take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
> >> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need
> >> to cover:
> >>
> >> - The browser
> >> - The workspace
> >> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> >> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
> >> would be fine)
> >>
> >> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,
> >> but I think the above is a higher priority.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big
> >> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say
> >> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other people
> >> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
> >> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
> >>
> >> Avi
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Seaside mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>
> Hello,
>
> I have noticed also that people stopped using Squeak because they could not
> do the simplest things at startup.
> The solutions you have posted all have some drawbacks.
>
> Is it possible to build a Squeak Tutor (Yes, a coded tutor) that gives the
> users a guided tutorial in Squeak?
> If the tutorial is coded, the tutorial have all the advantages of Squeak.
>
> Groeten Kees
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>
>

> On 7/30/06, stephane ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi wilkes
>>
>> I agree for Sails. ;)
>> May be we should join forces with all the videos I did and your to
>> create a decent web site (mine is really just a
>> folder) with videos showing how to develop in Smalltalk.
>
> Sounds good to me.  Just a reminder, I have a mini tutorial at
> http://wilkesjoiner.com/.  It needs to be updated and extended, and I
> need to redo the videos with sound.  I was planning on waiting until
> 3.9 came out before doing that.  I could do them in 3.8 and redo them
> in 3.9, though.  If you like it, we can use that as a starting point.
>
> Another thought I had was to take the gentle introduction you wrote
> that comes in 3.8 and enhancing it to make it more interactive.  I
> think both approaches are needed.  The tutorials and videos are more
> passive and can pique interest, but if done well, the interactive
> tutorial could really show off Squeak and go much further in helping a
> newbie along.
>
> - Wilkes
>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On 30 juil. 06, at 03:48, Wilkes Joiner wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks for the update Avi.  Good to hear.  I've been convinced  
>> for a
>> > long time that the more attention Ruby/Python get the better off
>> > Smalltalk is.  It will help to break the static branches of
>> > programming and will bring a larger mind share into the late-
>> binding
>> > camping.
>> >
>> > I've got a screencast in the queue to address the issue of learning
>> > Smalltalk.  This is motived by Ralph Johnson's post
>> > (http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-May/
>> > 104071.htm).
>> > Smalltalk is so radically different that the conventional ways of
>> > learning a new programming language are not applicable.  
>> Tutorials and
>> > api documentation are the main ways of learning most envirionments.
>> > In Smalltalk, the trick is learning how to browse the image and
>> > experiment with running code using the workspace and the  
>> inspectors.
>> > I think this is more effective once you figure out how to do it.
>> >
>> > The thing that is killing me with Rails is not being able to  
>> read the
>> > code I'm relying on.  I can open a text on editor on the source  
>> once I
>> > find it, but this brutally primitive compared to what comes for  
>> free
>> > with Smalltalk.  Porting ActiveRecord to Smalltalk with its own
>> > browser would really leap frog what is available in Ruby.  Someone
>> > will write a good IDE for Ruby and Rails.  It's inevitable.  
>> However,
>> > given the heavy reliance on runtime code generation in both Ruby  
>> and
>> > Rails,  it seems to me to be a really challenging prospect.  Not  
>> only
>> > do you have to deal with dynamic typing.  The definition of a lot
>> > classes only exist at runtime.  In Smalltalk, we can do that,  
>> but it
>> > is done far less frequently than in Ruby. I would rather just port
>> > ActiveRecord.
>> >
>> > I'll get a screencast together tomorrow and post a link on this  
>> list
>> > and squeak-dev for feedback.
>> >
>> > - Wilkes
>> >
>> > BTW, I prefer Sails to StOR.
>> >
>> > On 7/29/06, Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
>> >> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've  
>> been up
>> >> to for the last week.
>> >>
>> >> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON  
>> conference.
>> >> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
>> >> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but  
>> rather
>> >> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies -
>> >> like the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model  
>> (hm,
>> >> never noticed all those C's before) - for use in their  
>> environment of
>> >> choice.  However, interest was high enough that:
>> >>
>> >> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
>> >> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
>> >> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in
>> >> the room
>> >> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
>> >> about Seaside and Smalltalk
>> >> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first  
>> thing the
>> >> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
>> >> Squeak demo
>> >>
>> >> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
>> >> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they
>> >> saw in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to  
>> make
>> >> the journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
>> >> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no
>> >> prior Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World
>> >> Seaside app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's  
>> also a
>> >> huge amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of  
>> things
>> >> like version control: essentially everyone seems to believe  
>> that the
>> >> image is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is
>> >> understandably leery of this.
>> >>
>> >> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to  
>> publish
>> >> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to  
>> get a
>> >> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly  
>> large if)
>> >> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would
>> >> take, I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/
>> >> screencast that was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It  
>> would need
>> >> to cover:
>> >>
>> >> - The browser
>> >> - The workspace
>> >> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
>> >> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
>> >> would be fine)
>> >>
>> >> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help  
>> too,
>> >> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>> >>
>> >> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how  
>> big
>> >> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to  
>> say
>> >> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other  
>> people
>> >> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
>> >> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>> >>
>> >> Avi
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Seaside mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Seaside mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>
> Hello,
>
> I have noticed also that people stopped using Squeak because they could not
> do the simplest things at startup.
> The solutions you have posted all have some drawbacks.
>
> Is it possible to build a Squeak Tutor (Yes, a coded tutor) that gives the
> users a guided tutorial in Squeak?
> If the tutorial is coded, the tutorial have all the advantages of Squeak.
>
> Groeten Kees
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>
>

> Since this StOR thread seems to be about reaching an audience we
> haven't had before, it's probably worth mentioning what I've been up
> to for the last week.
>
> I've just returned from the O'Reilly's open source OSCON conference.
> I gave a talk on Seaside very intentionally angled not towards
> convincing people to jump ship from Python/Perl/Rails etc, but rather
> towards getting them to consider some of the basic technologies - like
> the the Canvas, Component, Callback and Continuation model (hm, never
> noticed all those C's before) - for use in their environment of
> choice.  However, interest was high enough that:
>
> - I gave a 45 minute talk to a packed room (some good photos at
> http://flickr.com/photos/jacobian/)
> - followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A with most people still in the room
> - followed by 3 hours of conversation with a large group at dinner
> about Seaside and Smalltalk
> - followed by a subset of that group tracking me down first thing the
> next morning and making me spend another couple of hours doing a
> Squeak demo
>
> What I found is that a) a huge number of these people have tried
> Squeak before, and that b) they were all very excited by what they saw
> in my (very simple) demo, but none of them had been able to make the
> journey themselves from the one to the other - that is, it was
> impossible for them to just download a Squeak image and, with no prior
> Smalltalk experience, find their way through a Hello World Seaside
> app.  So they decided Squeak wasn't for them.  There's also a huge
> amount of confusion and disinformation about the state of things like
> version control: essentially everyone seems to believe that the image
> is the only way to distribute Smalltalk code, and is understandably
> leery of this.
>
> I sensed enough goodwill, and got enough concrete offers to publish
> articles/books/etc, to think that the opportunity is there to get a
> mainstream audience for Seaside *if* (and this is a fairly large if)
> we want it and have the resources to put into it.  What it would take,
> I think, is a custom Squeak distribution and tutorial/screencast that
> was aimed at a non-Smalltalk audience.  It would need to cover:
>
> - The browser
> - The workspace
> - Saving, loading, and merging in Monticello
> - The basics of Seaside (a revamped "Walk on the Seaside" tutorial
> would be fine)
>
> An ActiveRecord-like simple O/R framework would certainly help too,
> but I think the above is a higher priority.
>
> Incidentally, I was asked by a few people at the conference how big
> the Seaside community was, and I was very pleased to be able to say
> "well, I almost never post to the list anymore, because other people
> are doing all the question answering, discussing, and committing".
> That's pretty cool, and an important threshold to cross, I think.
>
> Avi
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>