OT: Dart
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My first impression:
- a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top. And i bet it is implemented in C :D On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi, > > Google published the first information about Dart: > http://www.dartlang.org/ > > Cheers, > -- Pavel > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My first impression: > - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top. > > And i bet it is implemented in C > :D You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar). But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about. Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images. frank > On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Google published the first information about Dart: >> http://www.dartlang.org/ >> >> Cheers, >> -- Pavel >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > |
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On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4e8b652db6e8ee# Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com |
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Interesting, Do they (darters) see Amber?
2011/10/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:
You was Gilad's reply? Hi Mariano, On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianop...@gmail.com> wrote: Better analog is a Strongtalk BST file. It contains the classes and compile-time constants, but no state. > So I wonder...is this a kind of Smalltalk image? what is similar and what different? -- And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
best, Eliot |
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On 10 October 2011 18:16, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> > My first impression: >>> > - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top. >>> > >>> > And i bet it is implemented in C >>> > :D >>> >>> You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message >>> passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way >>> better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar). >>> >>> But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about. >>> >>> Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: >>> http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart >>> comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and >>> package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly >>> instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." >>> >> >> A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: >> https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4e8b652db6e8ee# > > You was Gilad's reply? > > Hi Mariano, > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < > > [hidden email]> wrote: > >> So I wonder...is this a kind of Smalltalk image? what is similar and what >> different? > > Better analog is a Strongtalk BST file. It contains the classes > and compile-time constants, but no state. > > -- > Cheers, Gilad > > And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel > or a fuel package containing code. > Seems so. Except that fuel can contain data "objects" not just code "objects". Okay, 10 years later i hope we again have a new language, which will inherit all current crap + finally "everything is an object" concept :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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2011/10/10 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>
Really? I dont see that classes are objects in dart and can be assigned to variables. |
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In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
Indeed I always felt stupid :)
But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). So :) Stef > > Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: > http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart > comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and > package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly > instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." > > Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people > over the use of images. > > frank > >> On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Google published the first information about Dart: >>> http://www.dartlang.org/ >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -- Pavel >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> > |
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Andy Bower once compared an image to a "messy bedroom" - (paraphrasing the rest), e.g. one that maybe does not look all that great, but the occupant knows where to find everything. The biggest problem I have with images is that they start to work for me and I don't want to change them.
It seems to be a universal argument among Smalltalkers: save things in the image vs. know exactly how to build the image and do so every day. The latter has the advantage of not requiring lots of archeology to discover what makes something work. One argument against saving images is that they can get damaged over time. I have had reasonable luck in avoiding ugliness. In part, I know that some things (e.g. running new FFI code) are dangerous and can corrupt an image or just plain crash the vm. So, I get things ready to run the suspect code, save, and then run/exit/edit/save until I have something that work. Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. Dolphin's licensing more or less requires that applications be deployed differently than development images. I have had success making a Pharo image work as an end-user application, but it is a somewhat clunky process. It would be nice to have something that takes care of the details (saving the image elsewhere, locking it, etc.) using a wizard interface. Too many ideas, too little time... Bill ________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:54 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart Indeed I always felt stupid :) But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). So :) Stef > > Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: > http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart > comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and > package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly > instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." > > Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people > over the use of images. > > frank > >> On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Google published the first information about Dart: >>> http://www.dartlang.org/ >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -- Pavel >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> > |
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On Oct 10, 2011, at 8:24 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Andy Bower once compared an image to a "messy bedroom" - (paraphrasing the rest), e.g. one that maybe does not look all that great, but the occupant knows where to find everything. The biggest problem I have with images is that they start to work for me and I don't want to change them. > > It seems to be a universal argument among Smalltalkers: save things in the image vs. know exactly how to build the image and do so every day. The latter has the advantage of not requiring lots of archeology to discover what makes something work. One argument against saving images is that they can get damaged over time. I have had reasonable luck in avoiding ugliness. In part, I know that some things (e.g. running new FFI code) are dangerous and can corrupt an image or just plain crash the vm. So, I get things ready to run the suspect code, save, and then run/exit/edit/save until I have something that work. > > Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. It will :) > > Dolphin's licensing more or less requires that applications be deployed differently than development images. I have had success making a Pharo image work as an end-user application, but it is a somewhat clunky process. It would be nice to have something that takes care of the details (saving the image elsewhere, locking it, etc.) using a wizard interface. Too many ideas, too little time... yes same here :) > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:54 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart > > Indeed I always felt stupid :) > But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). > So :) > > Stef > >> >> Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: >> http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart >> comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and >> package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly >> instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." >> >> Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people >> over the use of images. >> >> frank >> >>> On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Google published the first information about Dart: >>>> http://www.dartlang.org/ >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> -- Pavel >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >>> >> > > > |
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Stef,
Best of both worlds then. I am actually working on a "slower" version of what you might want. My interest in building images is (mostly) confined to saving code from an old version and loading into a new image. The hard part is external packages advance and the installation procedures change too. Bill ________________________________________ From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [[hidden email]] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:42 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart > Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. It will :) |
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In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
yes :)
Interesting. I would like to see the code and see if there is something I can learn from.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com |
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Hi Mariano,
On 10 October 2011 20:54, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote: >> And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a >> parcel or a fuel package containing code. > > Interesting. I would like to see the code and see if there is something I > can learn from. the entry point for Strongtalk's BST files seems to be bootstrap::parse_file() in http://code.google.com/p/strongtalk/source/browse/trunk/vm/runtime/bootstrap.cpp. Best, Michael |
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In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov
On 10 October 2011 20:06, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > 2011/10/10 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> >> >> Seems so. Except that fuel can contain data "objects" not just code >> "objects". >> >> Okay, 10 years later i hope we again have a new language, which will >> inherit all current crap + >> finally "everything is an object" concept :) >> > > Really? > > I dont see that classes are objects in dart and can be assigned to > variables. > yeah, it looks like people need another 10 years to realize the benefits of that. Because by reading dart specs i cannot leave the feeling that this language is a product of "not invented here" syndrome, rather than something fresh and new. Once, Microsoft did that with its C# project, now its seems like a Google's turn. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Michael Haupt <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Mariano, Thanks Michael for the point. Best, -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com |
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