Openstreetmap on Pharo
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Hi,
In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point people want to jump in. But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM related stuff. I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows its value. I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p Thanks Hilaire [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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Hi Hilaire,
OSM tiles support was added to Roassal, and demonstrated in two videos [1][2]. The context of the work was presented at FOSDEM [3]. In the pillarhub document, I demonstrated how to query the raw OSM data; we made sure that the tile support and georeferenced data could go on the same level, and be precise to the pixel to the underlying tile rendering. I'm sure all this works in Pharo4, just try the RTOSM examples! There is probably a way to make it interactive with data downloading and a playground, using the sample code present in the pillarhub document. [2] is a bit different, it uses a sensor network design tool and simulateur which requires VisualWorks, Occam and/or a Cuda GPU :). But it makes for an interesting demo / talk if it is your field, just contact Onil. Thierry [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoGIsQaGUo [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB7DG-lbiU [3] https://archive.fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/cirela/ Le 15/07/2015 19:16, Hilaire a écrit : > Hi, > > In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my > intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past > about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point > people want to jump in. > But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a > server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in > Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM > related stuff. > > I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear > for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly > interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows > its value. > > I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional > tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. > > https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps > http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p > > > > Thanks > > Hilaire > > > [1] > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing > |
Re: Openstreetmap on Pharo
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
Easiest way to get started is to download a recent moose image
and look at the roassal examples using OSM. From the FOSDEM demo we know that when you want to do a live demonstration you either have to be very sure you do not use a shared medium like wifi for the network, or that the tile data comes from a caching proxy on the demonstration machine. Stephan |
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In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
Hi Thierry,
This is what I did, I pick up latest Moose, and play a bit. It is nice indeed. A few remarks - loading the tiles is slow, does it comes from me? I am right on the local tile server in Hsinchu.. I am not sure the right tile server is used. a.tile.openstreetmap.org - the graphic quality is not optimal, blurred - I have a hard time to find live programming (in fact I failed): trying to get on an inspector was not obvious, then I don't know what I can do to modify the model and its view - one RTOSM example fails because of fuel version - examples #exampleSeismOnEarthLive #exampleSeismOnEarthLiveZoom fail also. Thanks for the tips Hilaire Le 16/07/2015 02:28, Thierry Goubier a écrit : > Hi Hilaire, > > OSM tiles support was added to Roassal, and demonstrated in two videos > [1][2]. The context of the work was presented at FOSDEM [3]. > > In the pillarhub document, I demonstrated how to query the raw OSM > data; we made sure that the tile support and georeferenced data could > go on the same level, and be precise to the pixel to the underlying > tile rendering. > > I'm sure all this works in Pharo4, just try the RTOSM examples! There > is probably a way to make it interactive with data downloading and a > playground, using the sample code present in the pillarhub document. > > [2] is a bit different, it uses a sensor network design tool and > simulateur which requires VisualWorks, Occam and/or a Cuda GPU :). But > it makes for an interesting demo / talk if it is your field, just > contact Onil. > > Thierry > > [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoGIsQaGUo > [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB7DG-lbiU > [3] https://archive.fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/cirela/ > > > Le 15/07/2015 19:16, Hilaire a écrit : >> Hi, >> >> In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my >> intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past >> about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point >> people want to jump in. >> But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a >> server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in >> Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM >> related stuff. >> >> I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear >> for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly >> interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows >> its value. >> >> I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional >> tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. >> >> https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps >> http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p >> >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Hilaire >> >> >> [1] >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing >> >> > > > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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Le 16/07/2015 03:59, Hilaire a écrit :
> Hi Thierry, > > This is what I did, I pick up latest Moose, and play a bit. It is nice > indeed. > > A few remarks > - loading the tiles is slow, does it comes from me? I am right on the > local tile server in Hsinchu.. I am not sure the right tile server is > used. a.tile.openstreetmap.org Do you need a dedicated tile server or the generic ones? We had an issue trying to accelerate tile loading when improving that part during PharoDays. I'll have a look at Moose to see which version of Roassal you are dealing with. > - the graphic quality is not optimal, blurred RTOSM interpolates between tiles zoom levels to gives you more freedom when zooming; this may comes with a slightly degraded image quality. Unless it is heavily blurred in which case it is something else. A screenshot? > - I have a hard time to find live programming (in fact I failed): trying > to get on an inspector was not obvious, then I don't know what I can do > to modify the model and its view This is more a Moose problem then. > - one RTOSM example fails because of fuel version There is a problem with the version of Roassal you are using. I remember correcting that a while ago. > - examples #exampleSeismOnEarthLive #exampleSeismOnEarthLiveZoom fail also. Yes, the links used to download the data (from the usgs if I remember correctly) have changed recently; there was a discussion on the mailing list not long ago (on pharo-dev or moose-dev); I don't know in which version of Roassal this was corrected. Thierry > > Thanks for the tips > > Hilaire > > Le 16/07/2015 02:28, Thierry Goubier a écrit : >> Hi Hilaire, >> >> OSM tiles support was added to Roassal, and demonstrated in two videos >> [1][2]. The context of the work was presented at FOSDEM [3]. >> >> In the pillarhub document, I demonstrated how to query the raw OSM >> data; we made sure that the tile support and georeferenced data could >> go on the same level, and be precise to the pixel to the underlying >> tile rendering. >> >> I'm sure all this works in Pharo4, just try the RTOSM examples! There >> is probably a way to make it interactive with data downloading and a >> playground, using the sample code present in the pillarhub document. >> >> [2] is a bit different, it uses a sensor network design tool and >> simulateur which requires VisualWorks, Occam and/or a Cuda GPU :). But >> it makes for an interesting demo / talk if it is your field, just >> contact Onil. >> >> Thierry >> >> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoGIsQaGUo >> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB7DG-lbiU >> [3] https://archive.fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/cirela/ >> >> >> Le 15/07/2015 19:16, Hilaire a écrit : >>> Hi, >>> >>> In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my >>> intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past >>> about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point >>> people want to jump in. >>> But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a >>> server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in >>> Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM >>> related stuff. >>> >>> I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear >>> for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly >>> interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows >>> its value. >>> >>> I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional >>> tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. >>> >>> https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps >>> http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Hilaire >>> >>> >>> [1] >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing >>> >>> >> >> >> > > |
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Le 16/07/2015 13:51, Thierry Goubier a écrit :
> > Do you need a dedicated tile server or the generic ones? We had an > issue trying to accelerate tile loading when improving that part > during PharoDays. I am wondering if the used server is the geographically closest one. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
Hi!
The OpenStreetMap support in Roassal works pretty well… The easiest way to start is probably take the latest version of Moose. Open the example browser and look for OpenStreetMap Integration. Thierry, although pretty cool, I have the impression the integration could be better. Here is a wish list: - Tile caching - Predictive zoom level. E.g., If I click twice on the zoomin button, it is likely that I will click a third time. So preloading the needed tile would be good Again Thierry and Onil, thanks for this working piece of work. This is fantastic! Cheers, Alexandre > On Jul 16, 2015, at 7:51 AM, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Le 16/07/2015 03:59, Hilaire a écrit : >> Hi Thierry, >> >> This is what I did, I pick up latest Moose, and play a bit. It is nice >> indeed. >> >> A few remarks >> - loading the tiles is slow, does it comes from me? I am right on the >> local tile server in Hsinchu.. I am not sure the right tile server is >> used. a.tile.openstreetmap.org > > Do you need a dedicated tile server or the generic ones? We had an issue trying to accelerate tile loading when improving that part during PharoDays. > > I'll have a look at Moose to see which version of Roassal you are dealing with. > >> - the graphic quality is not optimal, blurred > > RTOSM interpolates between tiles zoom levels to gives you more freedom when zooming; this may comes with a slightly degraded image quality. Unless it is heavily blurred in which case it is something else. A screenshot? > >> - I have a hard time to find live programming (in fact I failed): trying >> to get on an inspector was not obvious, then I don't know what I can do >> to modify the model and its view > > This is more a Moose problem then. > >> - one RTOSM example fails because of fuel version > > There is a problem with the version of Roassal you are using. I remember correcting that a while ago. > >> - examples #exampleSeismOnEarthLive #exampleSeismOnEarthLiveZoom fail also. > > Yes, the links used to download the data (from the usgs if I remember correctly) have changed recently; there was a discussion on the mailing list not long ago (on pharo-dev or moose-dev); I don't know in which version of Roassal this was corrected. > > Thierry > >> >> Thanks for the tips >> >> Hilaire >> >> Le 16/07/2015 02:28, Thierry Goubier a écrit : >>> Hi Hilaire, >>> >>> OSM tiles support was added to Roassal, and demonstrated in two videos >>> [1][2]. The context of the work was presented at FOSDEM [3]. >>> >>> In the pillarhub document, I demonstrated how to query the raw OSM >>> data; we made sure that the tile support and georeferenced data could >>> go on the same level, and be precise to the pixel to the underlying >>> tile rendering. >>> >>> I'm sure all this works in Pharo4, just try the RTOSM examples! There >>> is probably a way to make it interactive with data downloading and a >>> playground, using the sample code present in the pillarhub document. >>> >>> [2] is a bit different, it uses a sensor network design tool and >>> simulateur which requires VisualWorks, Occam and/or a Cuda GPU :). But >>> it makes for an interesting demo / talk if it is your field, just >>> contact Onil. >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoGIsQaGUo >>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB7DG-lbiU >>> [3] https://archive.fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/cirela/ >>> >>> >>> Le 15/07/2015 19:16, Hilaire a écrit : >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my >>>> intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past >>>> about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point >>>> people want to jump in. >>>> But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a >>>> server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in >>>> Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM >>>> related stuff. >>>> >>>> I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear >>>> for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly >>>> interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows >>>> its value. >>>> >>>> I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional >>>> tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. >>>> >>>> https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps >>>> http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Hilaire >>>> >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
2015-07-16 9:50 GMT+02:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>: Le 16/07/2015 13:51, Thierry Goubier a écrit : No. We did a very basic query system on one of the overall tile servers at the beginning. Sven improved that a lot by restricting the number of concurrent requests for tiles and load balancing among servers (a, b, c). Given how the system is written, I suspect that if one of the tile servers is faster, it will get more requests. More, RTOSM now will do a file-based cache of the tiles, so, if you prepare the demo beforehand, then your Pharo will have preloaded the tiles and will not tap into the tile servers. We still have unexpected latency issues, but I haven't added a time trace analysis to the Jejak tracer. It's on my todo list. Thierry
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In reply to this post by abergel
2015-07-16 10:52 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>: Hi! This one is working! Ok, with latency issues, but we don't know where they are (with Sven, we suspected they were not in the caching code). - Predictive zoom level. E.g., If I click twice on the zoomin button, it is likely that I will click a third time. So preloading the needed tile would be good Sure. There is also the idea of preloading around the current view so that you can drag left or right without delay. But at one point, you look at the code complexity and you say... hum, is that really worth it?
The only true weakness we have is to have to go javascript to use it as a web interface :( Thierry
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Re: Openstreetmap on Pharo
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In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
On 16-07-15 10:53, Thierry Goubier wrote:
> More, RTOSM now will do a file-based cache of the tiles, so, if you > prepare the demo beforehand, then your Pharo will have preloaded the > tiles and will not tap into the tile servers. Thanks, that is a welcome improvement. Stephan |
Re: Openstreetmap on Pharo
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In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
> On 16 Jul 2015, at 11:04, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > 2015-07-16 10:52 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>: > Hi! > > The OpenStreetMap support in Roassal works pretty well… The easiest way to start is probably take the latest version of Moose. Open the example browser and look for OpenStreetMap Integration. > > Thierry, although pretty cool, I have the impression the integration could be better. Here is a wish list: > - Tile caching > > This one is working! Ok, with latency issues, but we don't know where they are (with Sven, we suspected they were not in the caching code). Yes, there was an issue that seemed to be in the general Pharo drawing, not the tile accessing/caching, but we could not find it. We ended with the conclusion: Alex has to take a look ;-) > - Predictive zoom level. E.g., If I click twice on the zoomin button, it is likely that I will click a third time. So preloading the needed tile would be good > > Sure. There is also the idea of preloading around the current view so that you can drag left or right without delay. But at one point, you look at the code complexity and you say... hum, is that really worth it? I agree, it looks like a good idea, but it probably isn't: you would be loading way too much. > Again Thierry and Onil, thanks for this working piece of work. This is fantastic! > > The only true weakness we have is to have to go javascript to use it as a web interface :( > > Thierry > > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > > On Jul 16, 2015, at 7:51 AM, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Le 16/07/2015 03:59, Hilaire a écrit : > >> Hi Thierry, > >> > >> This is what I did, I pick up latest Moose, and play a bit. It is nice > >> indeed. > >> > >> A few remarks > >> - loading the tiles is slow, does it comes from me? I am right on the > >> local tile server in Hsinchu.. I am not sure the right tile server is > >> used. a.tile.openstreetmap.org > > > > Do you need a dedicated tile server or the generic ones? We had an issue trying to accelerate tile loading when improving that part during PharoDays. > > > > I'll have a look at Moose to see which version of Roassal you are dealing with. > > > >> - the graphic quality is not optimal, blurred > > > > RTOSM interpolates between tiles zoom levels to gives you more freedom when zooming; this may comes with a slightly degraded image quality. Unless it is heavily blurred in which case it is something else. A screenshot? > > > >> - I have a hard time to find live programming (in fact I failed): trying > >> to get on an inspector was not obvious, then I don't know what I can do > >> to modify the model and its view > > > > This is more a Moose problem then. > > > >> - one RTOSM example fails because of fuel version > > > > There is a problem with the version of Roassal you are using. I remember correcting that a while ago. > > > >> - examples #exampleSeismOnEarthLive #exampleSeismOnEarthLiveZoom fail also. > > > > Yes, the links used to download the data (from the usgs if I remember correctly) have changed recently; there was a discussion on the mailing list not long ago (on pharo-dev or moose-dev); I don't know in which version of Roassal this was corrected. > > > > Thierry > > > >> > >> Thanks for the tips > >> > >> Hilaire > >> > >> Le 16/07/2015 02:28, Thierry Goubier a écrit : > >>> Hi Hilaire, > >>> > >>> OSM tiles support was added to Roassal, and demonstrated in two videos > >>> [1][2]. The context of the work was presented at FOSDEM [3]. > >>> > >>> In the pillarhub document, I demonstrated how to query the raw OSM > >>> data; we made sure that the tile support and georeferenced data could > >>> go on the same level, and be precise to the pixel to the underlying > >>> tile rendering. > >>> > >>> I'm sure all this works in Pharo4, just try the RTOSM examples! There > >>> is probably a way to make it interactive with data downloading and a > >>> playground, using the sample code present in the pillarhub document. > >>> > >>> [2] is a bit different, it uses a sensor network design tool and > >>> simulateur which requires VisualWorks, Occam and/or a Cuda GPU :). But > >>> it makes for an interesting demo / talk if it is your field, just > >>> contact Onil. > >>> > >>> Thierry > >>> > >>> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zoGIsQaGUo > >>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMB7DG-lbiU > >>> [3] https://archive.fosdem.org/2015/schedule/event/cirela/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 15/07/2015 19:16, Hilaire a écrit : > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> In a few weeks I will give a speech in Taiwan at NCHC[1] about Pharo, my > >>>> intend is to present release 4. I already did speeches there in the past > >>>> about Pharo, but I have a hard time to raise interest to the point > >>>> people want to jump in. > >>>> But I hope to have an angle this time because NCHC recently offers a > >>>> server and the hosting for an openstreetmap tile server (the first in > >>>> Asia by the way), and there is high interest here in Taiwan about OSM > >>>> related stuff. > >>>> > >>>> I read here, job has been done with Roassal and OSM, but it is not clear > >>>> for me how to get in using OSM within Pharo. I am particularly > >>>> interested in providing an interactive demo where live programming shows > >>>> its value. > >>>> > >>>> I have found these pointers bellow. I am interested by any additional > >>>> tips and url, and particularly the compatibility with Pharo4. > >>>> > >>>> https://github.com/fstephany/OSMMaps > >>>> http://pillarhub.pharocloud.com/hub/ThierryGoubier/5y08m9uu71o8i7a35ijwr766p > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks > >>>> > >>>> Hilaire > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [1] > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_High-Performance_Computing > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
Le 16/07/2015 16:53, Thierry Goubier a écrit :
> More, RTOSM now will do a file-based cache of the tiles, so, if you > prepare the demo beforehand, then your Pharo will have preloaded the > tiles and will not tap into the tile servers. > > We still have unexpected latency issues, but I haven't added a time > trace analysis to the Jejak tracer. It's on my todo list. > I join a message tally on the TROSMShape>drawOn: It seems to me the cached tiles are not on the right format, there are as Form and each times a tile is painted it is first converted to a Cairo surface. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
TilesMessageTally.log (7K) |
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2015-07-16 17:44 GMT+02:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>: Le 16/07/2015 16:53, Thierry Goubier a écrit : Hum, do you mean we should cache the cairo surface (or the cairo paint, I remember that code was a bit strange)? Anybody knowledgeable with Athens and Cairo knows of any pitfalls of doing so? Red square of death when restarting the image? Is there any caching already done in Athens (fonts I guess)? Thanks, Thierry |
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Le 16/07/2015 23:54, Thierry Goubier a écrit :
> Hum, do you mean we should cache the cairo surface (or the cairo > paint, I remember that code was a bit strange)? > Yes, but now looking at the code it looks like surface is cached with the tile as id: paint := athensCanvas cacheAt: aTile ifAbsentPut: [ aTile asAthensPaintOn: athensCanvas ]. but I am not sure at all > Anybody knowledgeable with Athens and Cairo knows of any pitfalls of > doing so? Red square of death when restarting the image? Is there any > caching already done in Athens (fonts I guess)? > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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