PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

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PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman
greetings all,

I would like to have a go a updating PBE1 to Pharo 1.4.

Leaping in.... I have just installed TexLive2011 on Windows 7 and will
play with this further after work today. Any general jump start tips
would be appreciated.

cheers -ben
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:26 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> greetings all,
>
> I would like to have a go a updating PBE1 to Pharo 1.4.
> Leaping in.... I have just installed TexLive2011 on Windows 7 and will play
> with this further after work today. Any general jump start tips would be
> appreciated.

Hi Ben,
welcome on board ;-)

All the PBE1 LaTeX code is available on github here:
https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english

I dunno what the other think, but i think the best idea is to open a
new branch called pharo1.4 maybe and do the update here.

Ben if you don't know how to use git, maybe you can learn here:
http://help.github.com/

Best regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman

Serge Stinckwich wrote:
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:26 AM,  [hidden email] wrote:
  
greetings all,

I would like to have a go a updating PBE1 to Pharo 1.4.
Leaping in.... I have just installed TexLive2011 on Windows 7 and will play
with this further after work today. Any general jump start tips would be
appreciated.
    

Hi Ben,
welcome on board ;-)

All the PBE1 LaTeX code is available on github here:
https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english

I dunno what the other think, but i think the best idea is to open a
new branch called pharo1.4 maybe and do the update here.

Ben if you don't know how to use git, maybe you can learn here:
http://help.github.com/

Best regards,
  
Thanks Serge.  I haven't used either git or TeX before - but these are two things that have been on the To Do List for awhile.

I had installed TeXLive and also Git "For Windows" and had successfully cloned the repo - but  'make' available on Windows to produce the PDFs to learn how to produce them before I go changing anything.  So I am now in the middle of installing Cygwin to use its make, git and TeXLive within it.  Its taking ages so I will have to leave the downloads going overnight and try again  look at after work tomorrow.

I think a new pharo1.4 branch is the right approach, to be merged back in after final approval of the updated book.
Should I be pushing that branch back to the SquareBracketAssociates repo or a new repo of my own that SquareBracketAssociates can pull from.

cheers -ben


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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:28 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:26 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> greetings all,
>
> I would like to have a go a updating PBE1 to Pharo 1.4.
> Leaping in.... I have just installed TexLive2011 on Windows 7 and will play
> with this further after work today. Any general jump start tips would be
> appreciated.
>
>
> Hi Ben,
> welcome on board ;-)
>
> All the PBE1 LaTeX code is available on github here:
> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english
>
> I dunno what the other think, but i think the best idea is to open a
> new branch called pharo1.4 maybe and do the update here.
>
> Ben if you don't know how to use git, maybe you can learn here:
> http://help.github.com/
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Thanks Serge.  I haven't used either git or TeX before - but these are two
> things that have been on the To Do List for awhile.
>
> I had installed TeXLive and also Git "For Windows" and had successfully
> cloned the repo - but  'make' available on Windows to produce the PDFs to
> learn how to produce them before I go changing anything.  So I am now in the
> middle of installing Cygwin to use its make, git and TeXLive within it.  Its
> taking ages so I will have to leave the downloads going overnight and try
> again  look at after work tomorrow.
>
> I think a new pharo1.4 branch is the right approach, to be merged back in
> after final approval of the updated book.
> Should I be pushing that branch back to the SquareBracketAssociates repo or
> a new repo of my own that SquareBracketAssociates can pull from.

I know that the guys doing the japanese translation are doing like
that: https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-japanese
Every contributors clone the repo and send pull request to the main
repository after that.

Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
In reply to this post by Ben Coman
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:28 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:26 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> greetings all,
>
> I would like to have a go a updating PBE1 to Pharo 1.4.
> Leaping in.... I have just installed TexLive2011 on Windows 7 and will play
> with this further after work today. Any general jump start tips would be
> appreciated.
>
>
> Hi Ben,
> welcome on board ;-)
>
> All the PBE1 LaTeX code is available on github here:
> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english
>
> I dunno what the other think, but i think the best idea is to open a
> new branch called pharo1.4 maybe and do the update here.
>
> Ben if you don't know how to use git, maybe you can learn here:
> http://help.github.com/
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Thanks Serge.  I haven't used either git or TeX before - but these are two
> things that have been on the To Do List for awhile.
>
> I had installed TeXLive and also Git "For Windows" and had successfully
> cloned the repo - but  'make' available on Windows to produce the PDFs to
> learn how to produce them before I go changing anything.  So I am now in the
> middle of installing Cygwin to use its make, git and TeXLive within it.  Its
> taking ages so I will have to leave the downloads going overnight and try
> again  look at after work tomorrow.
>
> I think a new pharo1.4 branch is the right approach, to be merged back in
> after final approval of the updated book.
> Should I be pushing that branch back to the SquareBracketAssociates repo or
> a new repo of my own that SquareBracketAssociates can pull from.

Ok i create a new branch pharo1.4:
https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english/tree/pharo1.4

We should use the pharo 1.4 oneclick image for all the examples.
We have already made some modifications on the french translation. We
are using a special PBE1.0 oneclick image (including AtomMorph
example). Maybe some part could be reused for the english version.
Look chapter 1 here:
https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-french

One of the problem is that the class browser is no more OmniBrowser.
Maybe we can use Nautilus instead ?

I start to work on chapter 1.

Best regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Damien Cassou
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Serge Stinckwich
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> One of the problem is that the class browser is no more OmniBrowser.
> Maybe we can use Nautilus instead ?

I think that is the way to go. Just install Nautilus using the
configuration and publish the resulting image so that readers can get
Pharo 1.4 with Nautilus pre-installed.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One of the problem is that the class browser is no more OmniBrowser.
>> Maybe we can use Nautilus instead ?
>
> I think that is the way to go. Just install Nautilus using the
> configuration and publish the resulting image so that readers can get
> Pharo 1.4 with Nautilus pre-installed.

There is a stable Nautilus version always available with the
configuration browser.
We just have to describe how to to do it in the book.

Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Damien Cassou
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Serge Stinckwich
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is a stable Nautilus version always available with the
> configuration browser.
> We just have to describe how to to do it in the book.

The problem is that the book will show many screenshots that depend on
steps done at the beginning. This won't work for people who just want
to read a few chapters.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There is a stable Nautilus version always available with the
>> configuration browser.
>> We just have to describe how to to do it in the book.
>
> The problem is that the book will show many screenshots that depend on
> steps done at the beginning. This won't work for people who just want
> to read a few chapters.

Yes good point.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

stephane ducasse
In reply to this post by Damien Cassou
I think that we should limit as much as possible the screen shots of aspects that may change in the future because else we will have to work again for 2.0.
So I have no problem that you come up with an analysis and that we decide to clean that part.

Stef

On May 8, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:

> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There is a stable Nautilus version always available with the
>> configuration browser.
>> We just have to describe how to to do it in the book.
>
> The problem is that the book will show many screenshots that depend on
> steps done at the beginning. This won't work for people who just want
> to read a few chapters.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
> _______________________________________________
> Sbe-discussion mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/sbe-discussion
>


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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman
I may change my mind after I find out how much work is involved, but my current thinking is that in general it is exactly those parts that do change that are important to capture, in contrast to the many other unmaintained tutorials scattered around the web.  And yes... when 2.0 comes out we should do it again. 

However in relation to Nautilus specifically, I am not clear on whether the decision is to include it or not.  I think this is a significant issue since we should have a new One-Click image to go with the revised book - and so I've put some effort into coming up with as many points on either side of the argument as I can.  Being knew here I can't apply any judgment to rating these, so hopefully will get some short discussion followed by a firm resolution...

This got a bit longer than I meant, so you might cut of here with one of these short answers :

    a. Nautilus shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image

    b. OmniBrowser shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image.

     c. Use only the 1.4-release-built-in browser in a PBE1.4.image.

And here are the balancing points... (F)=For inclusion of Nautilus   (A)=Against inclusion of Nautilus  

1.(F) Nautilus is to be the default browser for 2.0, so there will be less work "later" when 2.0 arrives. 

2.(A) Using Built-In Browser or OmniBrowser will be less work "now" since while the visible "theme" may have changed and require updated snapshots, the associated textual descriptions will be correct.

3.(A) Nautilus was not considered ready at the release of 1.4.  Will it be ready soon enough to lock down a PBE1.4.image ?

4.(A) Nautilus is perhaps(?) going to be only keeping 1.4 compatibility "as long as possible" due to the significant changes for 2.0 for which it will be the default browser. 

5.(F) With a locked down PBE1.4.image any 2.0-only changes to Nautilus may not be relevant - but will we be setting the user up to be disappointed at not getting further updates later on? Perhaps also not so important to a newbie, who will work for a while with what they've got.

6.(A) Nautilus might still be evolving with some of the visible interface changing(?) during this revision of the book.

7.(A) Users reading PBE1 will not be at a level where they care to distinguish the features of the System Browser.  There is enough culture shock for them to absorb already and a basic browser might better.

8.(F) Nautilus provide significant benefit for a novice(?) that will enhance their experience with Pharo.

9.(F) First impressions count for a lot.  Expose newbies to Nautilus at a time when they are expecting to learn new things and Nautilus will never seem "foreign" to them.  At this time Nautilus is no more a culture shock than the rest of Smalltalk.


cheers -ben

stephane ducasse wrote:
I think that we should limit as much as possible the screen shots of aspects that may change in the future because else we will have to work again for 2.0.
So I have no problem that you come up with an analysis and that we decide to clean that part.

Stef

On May 8, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:

  
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Serge Stinckwich
[hidden email] wrote:
    
There is a stable Nautilus version always available with the
configuration browser.
We just have to describe how to to do it in the book.
      
The problem is that the book will show many screenshots that depend on
steps done at the beginning. This won't work for people who just want
to read a few chapters.

-- 
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse

On May 13, 2012, at 4:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I may change my mind after I find out how much work is involved, but my current thinking is that in general it is exactly those parts that do change that are important to capture, in contrast to the many other unmaintained tutorials scattered around the web.  And yes... when 2.0 comes out we should do it again.  
>
> However in relation to Nautilus specifically, I am not clear on whether the decision is to include it or not.  I think this is a significant issue since we should have a new One-Click image to go with the revised book - and so I've put some effort into coming up with as many points on either side of the argument as I can.  Being knew here I can't apply any judgment to rating these, so hopefully will get some short discussion followed by a firm resolution...
>
> This got a bit longer than I meant, so you might cut of here with one of these short answers :
>
>     a. Nautilus shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image
>
>     b. OmniBrowser shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image.
>
>      c. Use only the 1.4-release-built-in browser in a PBE1.4.image.
>

The problem that I see is that this brings us back to what we finally fixed: having to maintain two images. We will have "Pharo 1.4", carefully fixed to work. But then we tell everyone
to use something else, which we have to carefully fix, too. In Parallel.
Getting two images to a point where all the tiny details are working is a lot of work, and in the past we decided that we can't do this work.
At least I can say for me that I can't maintain two images. It's just not possible, it burnes me out.

This is why there is just one Pharo 1.4... and I am sceptical if making two different 1.4 images to need mainance will be a good idea.

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de


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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman
Marcus Denker wrote:
On May 13, 2012, at 4:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

  
I may change my mind after I find out how much work is involved, but my current thinking is that in general it is exactly those parts that do change that are important to capture, in contrast to the many other unmaintained tutorials scattered around the web.  And yes... when 2.0 comes out we should do it again.  

However in relation to Nautilus specifically, I am not clear on whether the decision is to include it or not.  I think this is a significant issue since we should have a new One-Click image to go with the revised book - and so I've put some effort into coming up with as many points on either side of the argument as I can.  Being knew here I can't apply any judgment to rating these, so hopefully will get some short discussion followed by a firm resolution...

This got a bit longer than I meant, so you might cut of here with one of these short answers :

    a. Nautilus shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image 

    b. OmniBrowser shall be included pre-installed in a PBE1.4.image.

     c. Use only the 1.4-release-built-in browser in a PBE1.4.image.

    

The problem that I see is that this brings us back to what we finally fixed: having to maintain two images. We will have "Pharo 1.4", carefully fixed to work. But then we tell everyone
to use something else, which we have to carefully fix, too. In Parallel.
Getting two images to a point where all the tiny details are working is a lot of work, and in the past we decided that we can't do this work. 
At least I can say for me that I can't maintain two images. It's just not possible, it burnes me out.

This is why there is just one Pharo 1.4... and I am sceptical if making two different 1.4 images to need mainance will be a good idea.

	Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de


  
Fair enough.  I've come in late and am not familiar with that past history.  So it would seem then the only feasible option is (c.).  I am assuming that we want each chapter (as much as possible) to be independent of all others, to cater for someone jumping into the book half way with a fresh image (eg it can be useful for a teacher to start each class with a fresh image). 

However, a PBE1.image should not require any maintenance.  Actually quite the opposite.  An image corresponding to a specific static version of the book should itself remain completely static.  I don't think the image needs to track maintenance releases.  As long as the reader can execute the "tested" examples without error that should be sufficient.   Any changes in the image used should require another review of the book. 

Another way to look at this might be that a PBE1.image is not exactly Pharo 1.4 but a "distribution" built on top.  For example, I think we _could_  include BouncingAtomsMorph in a PBE1.image.  The idea being to make the reader's first experience of Pharo to be as easy, broad and rewarding as possible.  If in the Appendix we describe how the PBE1.image was built from the standard Pharo1.4 image I think that would cover it when they move to the latest and greatest Pharo 1.4 maintenance release.

cheers -ben

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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

On May 14, 2012, at 5:01 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>>
>> The problem that I see is that this brings us back to what we finally fixed: having to maintain two images. We will have "Pharo 1.4", carefully fixed to work. But then we tell everyone
>> to use something else, which we have to carefully fix, too. In Parallel.
>> Getting two images to a point where all the tiny details are working is a lot of work, and in the past we decided that we can't do this work.
>> At least I can say for me that I can't maintain two images. It's just not possible, it burnes me out.
>>
>> This is why there is just one Pharo 1.4... and I am sceptical if making two different 1.4 images to need mainance will be a good idea.
>>
> Fair enough.  I've come in late and am not familiar with that past history.  So it would seem then the only feasible option is (c.).  I am assuming that we want each chapter (as much as possible) to be independent of all others, to cater for someone jumping into the book half way with a fresh image (eg it can be useful for a teacher to start each class with a fresh image).  
>
> However, a PBE1.image should not require any maintenance.  Actually quite the opposite.  An image corresponding to a specific static version of the book should itself remain completely static.  I don't think the image needs to track maintenance releases.  As long as the reader can execute the "tested" examples without error that should be sufficient.   Any changes in the image used should require another review of the book.  
>
> Another way to look at this might be that a PBE1.image is not exactly Pharo 1.4 but a "distribution" built on top.  For example, I think we _could_  include BouncingAtomsMorph in a PBE1.image.  The idea being to make the reader's first experience of Pharo to be as easy, broad and rewarding as possible.  If in the Appendix we describe how the PBE1.image was built from the standard Pharo1.4 image I think that would cover it when they move to the latest and greatest Pharo 1.4 maintenance release.

Yes, this is true, too. So I don't know. What know is that starting with 2.0 there is is just one Pharo and it is the one that we actually use. But of course that does not help with 1.4.

        Marcus


--
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by SergeStinckwich
Serge,

Before I start updating the screen snapshots, just though I'd check you
hadn't done any further updates to screen snapshots.
Were the couple you did do mainly to confirm creation of the Pharo1.4
branch?

cheers -ben
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

SergeStinckwich
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:49 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Serge,
>
> Before I start updating the screen snapshots, just though I'd check you
> hadn't done any further updates to screen snapshots.
> Were the couple you did do mainly to confirm creation of the Pharo1.4
> branch?

Yes you can continue on this branch. I already push some modifications here.
Update the repository frequently in order to keep the motivation ;-)
I will do some screenshots from time to time.
Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4

Ben Coman
Serge Stinckwich wrote:
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:49 PM,  [hidden email] wrote:
  
Serge,

Before I start updating the screen snapshots, just though I'd check you
hadn't done any further updates to screen snapshots.
Were the couple you did do mainly to confirm creation of the Pharo1.4
branch?
    

Yes you can continue on this branch. I already push some modifications here.
Update the repository frequently in order to keep the motivation ;-)
I will do some screenshots from time to time.
Regards,
  

Thanks.
btw, can you pull my very minor modification so far - so I can close the loop in the process and finish my blog post describing the process.

cheers, Ben

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