Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
 
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3 quick things : 1) How can I get the Windows theme (W2K) that was available in Pharo 3 (it's no longer there in Pharo 4.0 Beta). Having the close, maximize & minimize buttons to the left of every window is VERY annoying for Windows users! 2) Am I the only one annoyed by the fact that the Collection class still holds on to 2 class variables (one of them being an instance of Random, the other a mutex) for the sole purpose of accommodating the #atRandom & #atRandom: methods ? Even worse, the Integer class' implementation of #atRandom references the Collection class to use that random instance! In other words, Integer>>#atRandom --> Collection>>#randomForPicking --> Random ! I've always been a fan of the "mind your own business" approach. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have the Random class provide a default instance (a singleton) whenever other classes need such an object instead of crippling the code with class variables and singleton instance all over the place? 3) I'm having a few "Could not find disk drive" errors on Windows XP ( never had that error with Pharo 3 and I've been using it every day since it came out). Am I the only one? I ran all SUnit tests and the VM crashed "real bad". Do you guys need logs/dumps/errors on the console ? -----------------
Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) |
Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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Hi, Thanks for the feedback. Given that all listed points are negative, does it mean that there was nothing positive about Pharo 4? :) Cheers, Doru On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
Windows 2k is 16 years old. We can not maintain a museum of old windows looks… it just makes no sense (at all. At all… I don’t even think how someone can think that we should!). Keep in mind that nobody uses it (but you, I guess), so it will for sure be broken in subtle ways… We need to use it where it makes sense. A windows 2000 look is not one of these things.
The system is very large. I think it is fundamentally wrong to assume that something like this (Design level things) will be magically fixed if there was no discussion, no issue tracker entry, no nothing. Why do you think that this will “fix itself magically”? I would really like to know your thought process behind this… is there something that makes you think that a release process could catch this? How? Marcus
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
To the contrary! It's way faster and shorter to list what annoys me about Pharo 4.0 than write a novel on all its qualities! ;)
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Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>; Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions Hi, Thanks for the feedback. Given that all listed points are negative, does it mean that there was nothing positive about Pharo 4? :) Cheers, Doru On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
http://forum.world.st/FogBugz-Case-Issue-10346-Morphic-Remove-W2K-Theme-tt4682839.html If you check the issue to see which update the above was integrated, maybe you can file it out from the previous update and port it to Pharo 4.0
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
It's not so much about the Windows look (whether it's Win98, Win 2K, Win XP, Win Me, Win 8, Win Whatever). Every Windows user *expects* to have the Close, Maximize & Minimize buttons at the upper right of the Window. It might look like a silly detail but try swapping the buttons of a Mac user to the right and wait a few seconds before he complains! ;) -----------------
Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>; Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
Windows 2k is 16 years old. We can not maintain a museum of old windows looks… it just makes no sense (at all. At all… I don’t even think how someone can think that we should!). Keep in mind that nobody uses it (but you, I guess), so it will for sure be broken in subtle ways… We need to use it where it makes sense. A windows 2000 look is not one of these things.
The system is very large. I think it is fundamentally wrong to assume that something like this (Design level things) will be magically fixed if there was no discussion, no issue tracker entry, no nothing. Why do you think that this will “fix itself magically”? I would really like to know your thought process behind this… is there something that makes you think that a release process could catch this? How? Marcus |
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On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote: Every Windows user *expects* to have the Close, Maximize & Minimize buttons at the upper right of the Window. Don't speak for every Windows user ;) A lot of them have buttons at the upper left corner in the countries with right-to-left script (28 languages)  :) Cheers, Alex |
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
Not me I used to be a windows only user for over a decade and I was always have been wondering why the close /max/min are on the right side when menus start from the left. So when I finally decided to convert to Macos it was a welcomed change and still is. Now you can ask me after 8 years being a MacOS users how I feel about the way mac windows maximise and you wont hear nice things even now that they offer full screen options. On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
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The point is, every piece of code needs to be written and maintained which takes time and energy from other activities. However I imagine that taking the current Pharo theme and just moving the buttons around wouldn't be a complex task (or perhaps even making it customizable option). Personally since my OS doesn't use these buttons at all I don't really care at which side they are. Peter On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:58 PM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:
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"The point is, every piece of code needs to be written and maintained which takes time and energy from other activities." I completely agree with you. I have zero issues of main pharo developers kicking out libraries that are not so much used by pharo users. Those libraries are perfectly capable of existing as third party. I also love the plan to make pharo modular, remove libraries from inside and make it easy to install. This way each one of us can easily make an image tailor made for his/her needs. Each pharo user is an individual with individual needs. Installing libraries is dead easy with the Configuration Browser , including their dependencies , just one click away. Of course that leaves whos going to maintain that stuff. I agree with Marcus here, "you want it in pharo , code it".The theme support in Pharo is very powerful , I know because I created my own custom blue theme and a tool to allow easy customization of theme colors with zero coding (Nireas). I expected that by now Nireas would be replaced by another way more powerful theme manager but it has not. Why ? Not because my theme manager is very good, but because the community is just too small. I love using my blue theme and fits perfect to my taste and needs ;) In the end no code can be more personal than the code you create. There is no need for everything to exist inside the image , great things can exist outside too. All it needs people who really care about pharo by coding for it. |
Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
> On 03 Apr 2015, at 14:11, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote: > > 2) Am I the only one annoyed by the fact that the Collection class still holds on to 2 class variables (one of them being an instance of Random, the other a mutex) for the sole purpose of accommodating the #atRandom & #atRandom: methods ? Even worse, the Integer class' implementation of #atRandom references the Collection class to use that random instance! In other words, Integer>>#atRandom --> Collection>>#randomForPicking --> Random ! I've always been a fan of the "mind your own business" approach. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have the Random class provide a default instance (a singleton) whenever other classes need such an object instead of crippling the code with class variables and singleton instance all over the place? This always annoyed me big time. Not just for what you said, but also because the access protection should not be there at all. |
Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Kilon, I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* of people on Windows still ! -----------------
Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: kilon alios <[hidden email]> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions "The point is, every piece of code needs to be written and maintained which takes time and energy from other activities." I completely agree with you. I have zero issues of main pharo developers kicking out libraries that are not so much used by pharo users. Those libraries are perfectly capable of existing as third party. I also love the plan to make pharo modular, remove libraries from inside and make it easy to install. This way each one of us can easily make an image tailor made for his/her needs. Each pharo user is an individual with individual needs. Installing libraries is dead easy with the Configuration Browser , including their dependencies , just one click away. Of course that leaves whos going to maintain that stuff. I agree with Marcus here, "you want it in pharo , code it".The theme support in Pharo is very powerful , I know because I created my own custom blue theme and a tool to allow easy customization of theme colors with zero coding (Nireas). I expected that by now Nireas would be replaced by another way more powerful theme manager but it has not. Why ? Not because my theme manager is very good, but because the community is just too small. I love using my blue theme and fits perfect to my taste and needs ;) In the end no code can be more personal than the code you create. There is no need for everything to exist inside the image , great things can exist outside too. All it needs people who really care about pharo by coding for it. |
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> On 03 Apr 2015, at 15:57, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Date: 3 Apr 2015 15:53:56 CEST > From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions > > > Kilon, > > I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* of people on Windows still ! There is no such thing as *one* Windows look (or version), there are many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Usage_share We simply cannot maintain them, nor do we want to. Note that we do not maintain any other platform specific look&feels. > ----------------- > Benoit St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > From: kilon alios <[hidden email]> > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> > Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 9:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions > > > > > "The point is, every piece of code needs to be written and maintained which takes time and energy from other activities." > > > I completely agree with you. I have zero issues of main pharo developers kicking out libraries that are not so much used by pharo users. Those libraries are perfectly capable of existing as third party. > > I also love the plan to make pharo modular, remove libraries from inside and make it easy to install. This way each one of us can easily make an image tailor made for his/her needs. Each pharo user is an individual with individual needs. > > Installing libraries is dead easy with the Configuration Browser , including their dependencies , just one click away. > > Of course that leaves whos going to maintain that stuff. I agree with Marcus here, "you want it in pharo , code it".The theme support in Pharo is very powerful , I know because I created my own custom blue theme and a tool to allow easy customization of theme colors with zero coding (Nireas). I expected that by now Nireas would be replaced by another way more powerful theme manager but it has not. Why ? Not because my theme manager is very good, but because the community is just too small. I love using my blue theme and fits perfect to my taste and needs ;) > > In the end no code can be more personal than the code you create. > > There is no need for everything to exist inside the image , great things can exist outside too. All it needs people who really care about pharo by coding for it. > > > > > |
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If you want to argue about usage, this is probably more appropriate http://strawpoll.me/4001583/r (though Linux numbers are in reallity somewhat lower due to desktop+server) The bottom line is: nobody (from ~third of Pharo users) really cared until now so the options I see: 1. open an issue in Pharo issue tracker 2. a) write it yourself, or 2. b) ask someone who is interested in themes to write it If nothing fundamental changed in theming in Pharo 4, than moving the buttons around should take an evening with bottle of beer at most. If you want it in the default theme but customizable, that may take more, but it would be interesting. If you want the whole Windows theme than that may be a bit more. Peter On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list
Le 03/04/2015 15:56, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a écrit :
> > I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the > image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The > only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than > 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if > someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* > of people on Windows still ! > Hi Benoit, I agree with you this window theme may have its usefulness in professional desktop application for Pharo[1]. But Desktop application is not really the priority and I am afraid you are own your own. In the other hand it should be doable to maintain it as a separate package. Hilaire [1] You can even still see in operation kind of DOS like operated application, mainly because it is handy for users. I guess Windows theme can serve the same purpose, may be this is what Benoit is explaining about. -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu |
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Oh, but wait a minute: W2K was not present in Pharo3, only Vistary was
there, but removed. Hilaire Le 03/04/2015 16:16, Hilaire a écrit : > Le 03/04/2015 15:56, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a écrit : >> I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the >> image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The >> only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than >> 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if >> someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* >> of people on Windows still ! >> > Hi Benoit, > > I agree with you this window theme may have its usefulness in > professional desktop application for Pharo[1]. But Desktop application > is not really the priority and I am afraid you are own your own. In the > other hand it should be doable to maintain it as a separate package. > > Hilaire > > [1] You can even still see in operation kind of DOS like operated > application, mainly because it is handy for users. I guess Windows theme > can serve the same purpose, may be this is what Benoit is explaining about. > -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
lot of time ago we decided *not* to pretend imitate any OS L&F, because is first a lot of work, and second a lose of time: they do not fit, and if you want to make them fit for real you need to spend *really* much time there (and you probably will fail anyway).
Themes remained there without being maintained and they started to break. As no one uses it, no one noticed :) So we started to remove them. Now… I would like to not just remove anything, but to move them to a graveyard, where it can be revived by any necromancer who wants to give them a try. We need to improve there. w2k theme was… old. Didn’t fit with any current L&F, not windows either. So, if you used the w2k theme just because of the icons (and also… I have to say it: windows and mac *is not* the same: windows is plenty of home-made L&F that does not respect any design rule… mac is not like that). But well, coming back: if you want that old theme just for the icons, I just recommend you to take current theme and modify it to have the icons where you want (should not be so difficult). In the long term, it will be a lot more maintainable :) cheers, Esteban > On 03 Apr 2015, at 16:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> On 03 Apr 2015, at 15:57, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> Date: 3 Apr 2015 15:53:56 CEST >> From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> >> Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> >> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions >> >> >> Kilon, >> >> I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* of people on Windows still ! > > There is no such thing as *one* Windows look (or version), there are many: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Usage_share > > We simply cannot maintain them, nor do we want to. > > Note that we do not maintain any other platform specific look&feels. > >> ----------------- >> Benoit St-Jean >> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean >> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux >> Pinterest: benoitstjean >> IRC: lamneth >> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com >> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) >> >> From: kilon alios <[hidden email]> >> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 9:25 AM >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions >> >> >> >> >> "The point is, every piece of code needs to be written and maintained which takes time and energy from other activities." >> >> >> I completely agree with you. I have zero issues of main pharo developers kicking out libraries that are not so much used by pharo users. Those libraries are perfectly capable of existing as third party. >> >> I also love the plan to make pharo modular, remove libraries from inside and make it easy to install. This way each one of us can easily make an image tailor made for his/her needs. Each pharo user is an individual with individual needs. >> >> Installing libraries is dead easy with the Configuration Browser , including their dependencies , just one click away. >> >> Of course that leaves whos going to maintain that stuff. I agree with Marcus here, "you want it in pharo , code it".The theme support in Pharo is very powerful , I know because I created my own custom blue theme and a tool to allow easy customization of theme colors with zero coding (Nireas). I expected that by now Nireas would be replaced by another way more powerful theme manager but it has not. Why ? Not because my theme manager is very good, but because the community is just too small. I love using my blue theme and fits perfect to my taste and needs ;) >> >> In the end no code can be more personal than the code you create. >> >> There is no need for everything to exist inside the image , great things can exist outside too. All it needs people who really care about pharo by coding for it. >> >> >> >> >> > > |
Re: Pharo 4 Beta, first impressions
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
> On 03 Apr 2015, at 16:19, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Oh, but wait a minute: W2K was not present in Pharo3, only Vistary was > there, but removed. > right, we removed W2K already for Pharo3. It’s 2015... > Hilaire > > Le 03/04/2015 16:16, Hilaire a écrit : >> Le 03/04/2015 15:56, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a écrit : >>> I can perfectly understand that "not everything has to be in the >>> image" and that, ultimately, someone has to maintain that code. The >>> only problem I have with the removal of that theme is that more than >>> 55% of users are running some flavor of Windows. It's not as if >>> someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* >>> of people on Windows still ! >>> >> Hi Benoit, >> >> I agree with you this window theme may have its usefulness in >> professional desktop application for Pharo[1]. But Desktop application >> is not really the priority and I am afraid you are own your own. In the >> other hand it should be doable to maintain it as a separate package. >> >> Hilaire >> >> [1] You can even still see in operation kind of DOS like operated >> application, mainly because it is handy for users. I guess Windows theme >> can serve the same purpose, may be this is what Benoit is explaining about. >> > > > -- > Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu > iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu > > > |
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" It's not as if someone would ask for an OS/2 or a Motif UI theme! There are *LOTS* of people on Windows still !" That is irrelevant really . Thats not how open source works. In open source something maintained or goes in or stays in because someone bothers to code for it. |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Le 03/04/2015 16:21, Marcus Denker a écrit :
> right, we removed W2K already for Pharo3. > > It’s 2015... Still Benoit wrote about users. Do Benoit think about users of a specific Pharo Desktop application? In that case it can have implication upgrading this application to newer Pharo, because destabilizing end user is annoying. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu |
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