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[Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

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HilaireFernandes

[Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

Hi,

While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.

More time is need for a real developer experience, may be later.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

Pharo5-Review.txt (4K) Download Attachment

http://drgeo.eu

philippeback

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

Yes, same feel here.

Adding to it the fact that the debugger has freezes and weird behavior (I've a hard time following the flow).

Maybe the initial 5.0 will be feature packed and the summer release will be honed tools wise.

It is a massive release in terms of what it achieves and I think that we shouldn't expect rock solid stuff for this one...

But this looks like the price to pay for going forward.

I'll port my codebase it 5.0 but not for any production grade at this time.

Complaining will not get things better, so, I hope to be able to contribute some feedback and associated fixes.

You are right that experienced users can also be very surprised (I am). Newcomers will have quite a hard time indeed.

Maybe Pharo 5.0 beta would be a good name for the release...

Phil

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.

More time is need for a real developer experience, may be later.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

EstebanLM

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Hi,

thanks for your feedback, Hilaire.
yes, some of that needs to be fixed, some others (the subjective ones), can't :)

first answer: in a side project, I’m loading Gettext like this:

gettext: spec
spec
project: 'Gettext'
with: [
spec
className: 'ConfigurationOfGettext';
versionString: #stable;
repository: 'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext/main' ].

and it is working fine (bah, is loading fine and generating po files fine… I did not test further).

cheers,
Esteban

> On 25 Apr 2016, at 12:16, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
> It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
> may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.
>
> More time is need for a real developer experience, may be later.
>
> Hilaire
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
> <Pharo5-Review.txt>

Peter Uhnak

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Some comments

> Font size is ridiculous! Make it at minimum 12 for the permanent visual elements

This is subjective… I am even considering making the size smaller for myself (after all, in Pharo 4 it was size 9).

> Line numbers: where is it used, not in the system browser

This is disabled by default, so it shouldn't be a problem.

> "Format as you read" -> what is tooltips good for?

This is autoformatting without the need to reformat the code yourself, very useful if you are reading some old/unformatted codebase.

For example open Morph>>acceptDroppingMorph:event: and click on the button — it will reformat the code without changing the code itself.

> AST navigation: what is it? I don't understand its description. What nodes?

Do we really need a block of text of description for everything? If you know what AST is then it is pretty self-explanatory. If you don't know what AST is then the option has no value for you, because the navigation would be random.

> Nautilis: where is the local senders tools?

You need to scope your view (top left corner button "Scoped")

> Spotter

Why Ctrl+[->]? my intuition tells me [->] as indicated by the blue icon arrow, please fix it!

Because -> and <- is already taken. Pretty much any shortcut in the system has ctrl/alt/command in it, so I don't see why this only thing in the entire system should be different. You can also hover over the button to see the shortcut.

Not to mention that you have two different right arrows (ctrl+right, ctrl+shift+right), so just because you immediately see one use case doesn't mean that it's the only one/best one. There was A LOT of discussion on the mailing list regarding Spotter's usability and shortcuts.

> Playground

Why Ctrl+shift+g to open a pane, looks like Ctrl+g is working. Nevertheless Ctrl+g is not very handy short cut, it hurts the fingers! Can it be changed?

Because it's not the same. do-it-all-and-go (ctrl+shift+g) executes all the code and inspects it in the next pane, while ctrl+g (do-it-and-go) just the selected block/current line.

> When do-it-all-and-go, the meta pane does not look nice: there are sliders but there is enough place

What extra space? The bottom half is for the selected method.

> Image is now 47.7MB and it does not shrink! Big fat boy :)

This is a known bug in Pharo.

Peter

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.

More time is need for a real developer experience, may be later.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

HilaireFernandes

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by philippeback

I don't feel bad about it (okay, I have not started a developer
experience with it). It is nice but the quality in the system is
irregular. Well written tooltips and descriptions can really improve the
newbies experience.

Hilaire

Le 25/04/2016 13:28, [hidden email] a écrit :

> Yes, same feel here.
>
> Adding to it the fact that the debugger has freezes and weird behavior
> (I've a hard time following the flow).
>
> Maybe the initial 5.0 will be feature packed and the summer release will
> be honed tools wise.
>
> It is a massive release in terms of what it achieves and I think that we
> shouldn't expect rock solid stuff for this one...
>
> But this looks like the price to pay for going forward.
>
> I'll port my codebase it 5.0 but not for any production grade at this time.
> Complaining will not get things better, so, I hope to be able to
> contribute some feedback and associated fixes.
>
> You are right that experienced users can also be very surprised (I am).
> Newcomers will have quite a hard time indeed.
>
> Maybe Pharo 5.0 beta would be a good name for the release...
>
> Phil

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

HilaireFernandes

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Nice to read, I was using the DrGeo configuration to install Gettext. SO
I guess Joan get it right.

Hilaire

Le 25/04/2016 13:39, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
> thanks for your feedback, Hilaire.
> yes, some of that needs to be fixed, some others (the subjective ones), can't :)

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

HilaireFernandes

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak

Le 25/04/2016 13:58, Peter Uhnák a écrit :
> Some comments
>
>> Font size is ridiculous! Make it at minimum 12 for the permanent
> visual elements
>
> This is subjective… I am even considering making the size smaller for
> myself (after all, in Pharo 4 it was size 9).

I think it is more a question of usability based on the average wished
font size. So all in all the choice of font size can be done objectively
although font size wish is subjective.

Some people will want 9, other 14 or 16. The average is likely in between.

>
>> Line numbers: where is it used, not in the system browser
>
> This is disabled by default, so it shouldn't be a problem.

UI noise, but not a big deal.

>
>> "Format as you read" -> what is tooltips good for?
>
> This is autoformatting without the need to reformat the code yourself,
> very useful if you are reading some old/unformatted codebase.
>
> For example open Morph>>acceptDroppingMorph:event: and click on the
> button — it will reformat the code without changing the code itself.

=> Tooltips needed.

>> AST navigation: what is it? I don't understand its description. What
> nodes?
>
> Do we really need a block of text of description for everything? If you
> know what AST is then it is pretty self-explanatory. If you don't know
> what AST is then the option has no value for you, because the navigation
> would be random.

>
>> Nautilis: where is the local senders tools?
>
> You need to scope your view (top left corner button "Scoped")

Oh great to know what does "Scoped".
The tooltips of the "Scoped" button is therefore not helping as there is
no useful information: "Browse scoped the selected packages"

One can check at Dr. Geo what useful tips mean: Most of its tools come
with 3 or even 4 lines tips (see screenshot example)

When people add UI element, great care is need in the description. I
guess professional software company have people to review it all.

>> Spotter
> Why Ctrl+[->]? my intuition tells me [->] as indicated by the blue icon
> arrow, please fix it!
>
> Because -> and <- is already taken. Pretty much any shortcut in the
> system has ctrl/alt/command in it, so I don't see why this only thing in
> the entire system should be different. You can also hover over the
> button to see the shortcut.

Indeed <- and -> is used to edit the text search but keyboard focus can
open the use of <- -> for navigation. Not being able to use -> is
counter intuitive.

> Not to mention that you have two different right arrows (ctrl+right,
> ctrl+shift+right), so just because you immediately see one use case
> doesn't mean that it's the only one/best one. There was A LOT of
> discussion on the mailing list regarding Spotter's usability and shortcuts.

It is inconsistent: why no need of Ctrl for up and down, but a need for
it for left and right.

>
>> Playground
> Why Ctrl+shift+g to open a pane, looks like Ctrl+g is working.
> Nevertheless Ctrl+g is not very handy short cut, it hurts the fingers!
> Can it be changed?
>
> Because it's not the same. do-it-all-and-go (ctrl+shift+g) executes all
> the code and inspects it in the next pane, while ctrl+g (do-it-and-go)
> just the selected block/current line.

ok. But Ctrl+g is really really not fingers friendly for a short cut you
will use very often. See screenshot, there is so much tension in the
three fingers when doing it. It is torture and I can tell you my hands
are large celtic ones. I guess you need two hands to use comfortably
this shortcut.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

usefulTip.png (27K) Download Attachment

fingersTorture.jpg (110K) Download Attachment

http://drgeo.eu

Peter Uhnak

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

I think it is more a question of usability based on the average wished
font size. So all in all the choice of font size can be done objectively
although font size wish is subjective.

Yes, that's why it is configurable.

Some people will want 9, other 14 or 16. The average is likely in between.

It was 9 since at least Pharo 3, so I am not sure what's the complaint about, considering people were ok with the size for several years (so I am inferring 9/10 should be good for everyone).

>
>> Line numbers: where is it used, not in the system browser
>
> This is disabled by default, so it shouldn't be a problem.

UI noise, but not a big deal.

Considering the L+ and W are literally the smallest elements in the UI I'd hardly call it noise; but this is subjective.

>
>> Nautilis: where is the local senders tools?
>
> You need to scope your view (top left corner button "Scoped")

Oh great to know what does "Scoped".
The tooltips of the "Scoped" button is therefore not helping as there is
no useful information: "Browse scoped the selected packages"

One can check at Dr. Geo what useful tips mean: Most of its tools come
with 3 or even 4 lines tips (see screenshot example)

I guess professional software company have people to review it all.

A company that cares about first-time users. Once you know what it does, the current tooltip is often completely obvious.

And since we don't really have much first-time users that would be willing to share (as often they are overwhelmed by so much different stuff) it can be quite difficult to improve.

So if you can propose better tooltips (since you are a pair of fresh eyes), then it would be valuable for new users.

>> Spotter
> Why Ctrl+[->]? my intuition tells me [->] as indicated by the blue icon
> arrow, please fix it!
>
> Because -> and <- is already taken. Pretty much any shortcut in the
> system has ctrl/alt/command in it, so I don't see why this only thing in
> the entire system should be different. You can also hover over the
> button to see the shortcut.

Indeed <- and -> is used to edit the text search but keyboard focus can
open the use of <- -> for navigation. Not being able to use -> is
counter intuitive.

> Not to mention that you have two different right arrows (ctrl+right,
> ctrl+shift+right), so just because you immediately see one use case
> doesn't mean that it's the only one/best one. There was A LOT of
> discussion on the mailing list regarding Spotter's usability and shortcuts.

It is inconsistent: why no need of Ctrl for up and down, but a need for
it for left and right.

Because horizontal navigation in such a way is the same everywhere. But with control you are taking different action.

But point above about new/accustomed users holds here as well.

>
>> Playground
> Why Ctrl+shift+g to open a pane, looks like Ctrl+g is working.
> Nevertheless Ctrl+g is not very handy short cut, it hurts the fingers!
> Can it be changed?
>
> Because it's not the same. do-it-all-and-go (ctrl+shift+g) executes all
> the code and inspects it in the next pane, while ctrl+g (do-it-and-go)
> just the selected block/current line.

ok. But Ctrl+g is really really not fingers friendly for a short cut you
will use very often. See screenshot, there is so much tension in the
three fingers when doing it. It is torture and I can tell you my hands
are large celtic ones. I guess you need two hands to use comfortably
this shortcut.

Interesting, I press the control with my thumb.

As a proper touch-type user I should actually use the opposite shift than the key is on (so right shfit for G, left shift for H, etc.)… I don't know why I type it with one hand.

The default meta key on linux is ctrl, so such hand-braking shortcuts are not so uncommon (ctrl+shift+Debug, ctrl+shift+Format).

Peter

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

On 25-04-16 12:16, Hilaire wrote:
> While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
> It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
> may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.
Thanks for the detailed feedback.

Stephan

stepharo

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Hilaire

Now it would be good to open bug entries to each of your points

and help to address some of them.

Stef

Le 25/4/16 à 12:16, Hilaire a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> While giving a try to Pharo5, I wrote some notes about how it fells.
> It may be useful to share it. Of course it is also very opinionated and
> may be rude. But no offense to consider, really.
>
> More time is need for a real developer experience, may be later.
>
> Hilaire
>

HilaireFernandes

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

I don't know what you want to do with these feedbacks, mostly UI oriented.

Hilaire

Le 01/05/2016 09:11, stepharo a écrit :
>
> Now it would be good to open bug entries to each of your points
>
> and help to address some of them.
>
> Stef

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

stepharo

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

> I don't know what you want to do with these feedbacks, mostly UI oriented.

Fix the ones that can easily be fixed and think about the others :)
So providing a better setting description is around 2 min work so we
should do it.

Stef
>
> Hilaire
>
> Le 01/05/2016 09:11, stepharo a écrit :
>> Now it would be good to open bug entries to each of your points
>>
>> and help to address some of them.
>>
>> Stef

HilaireFernandes

Re: [Pharo 5] Some feedbacks

Original authors should take responsability to write proper description.
I can't imagine asking a Dr. Geo user to write a description on a tool
he does not understand.

Hilaire

Le 02/05/2016 07:24, stepharo a écrit :
> Fix the ones that can easily be fixed and think about the others :)
> So providing a better setting description is around 2 min work so we
> should do it.
>
> Stef

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu