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Pharo 7 and shortcuts

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NorbertHartl

Pharo 7 and shortcuts

Maybe I missed an important discussion but as I’m trying pharo7 now and I wonder about the keyboard shortcuts.

Wasn’t the old agreement moving to the multiple keys? So browsing senders with CMD-bn instead of the old CMD-n?

What I find really confusing is that the shortcut keys in the menu are uppercase but the shortcut is lowercase. This does not look like an improvement to me.

Any hints are highly appreciated.

Norbert

Ben Coman

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

On 7 July 2018 at 20:35, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe I missed an important discussion but as I’m trying pharo7 now and I wonder about the keyboard shortcuts.
>
> Wasn’t the old agreement moving to the multiple keys? So browsing senders with CMD-bn instead of the old CMD-n?

Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
done-deal with Nautilus.
Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
reverted to using context menus.

I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
single-key-shortcuts.
But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
Nautlius was reverted.
I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.

cheers -ben

NorbertHartl

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

> Am 07.07.2018 um 16:17 schrieb Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On 7 July 2018 at 20:35, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Maybe I missed an important discussion but as I’m trying pharo7 now and I wonder about the keyboard shortcuts.
>>
>> Wasn’t the old agreement moving to the multiple keys? So browsing senders with CMD-bn instead of the old CMD-n?
>
> Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
> there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
> done-deal with Nautilus.
> Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
> but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
> to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
> reverted to using context menus.
>
> I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
> I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
> single-key-shortcuts.
> But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
> Nautlius was reverted.
> I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.
>

I cannot say I liked the idea of having double key sequences. You see I‘m using vi since 28 years and never emacs for exactly that reason.
The important constraint for this seems to be number of shortcuts you need. I thought there is going to be more. So I convinced myself not to be sad having double key sequences.
I‘m more or less glad about the revert, too. Best is that now the keyboard shortcuts are unified again 😉

Norbert
> cheers -ben
>

CyrilFerlicot

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

Le 07/07/2018 à 16:17, Ben Coman a écrit :

> Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
> there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
> done-deal with Nautilus.
> Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
> but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
> to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
> reverted to using context menus.
>
> I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
> I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
> single-key-shortcuts.
> But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
> Nautlius was reverted.
> I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.
>

For my part I'm not because before I could delete/rename/add a

package/class/protocol/method without the mouse but now it became much
harder with simple key shortcut since it works only on the focused pane.

But I guess this kind of things depend on everyone.

Maybe it could be good to be able to customize it via settings.

> cheers -ben
>

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

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NorbertHartl

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

> Am 07.07.2018 um 17:08 schrieb Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Le 07/07/2018 à 16:17, Ben Coman a écrit :
>> Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
>> there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
>> done-deal with Nautilus.
>> Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
>> but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
>> to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
>> reverted to using context menus.
>>
>> I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
>> I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
>> single-key-shortcuts.
>> But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
>> Nautlius was reverted.
>> I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.
>>
> For my part I'm not because before I could delete/rename/add a
> package/class/protocol/method without the mouse but now it became much
> harder with simple key shortcut since it works only on the focused pane.
>
> But I guess this kind of things depend on everyone.
>
> Maybe it could be good to be able to customize it via settings.
>

I don‘t understand anyway why keyboard shortcuts are dependent on a tool. Shouldn‘t there be an abstraction mapping between action and shortcut?

Norbert
>> cheers -ben
>>
>
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
> https://ferlicot.fr
>

kilon.alios

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

Shortcuts have long been a thorn for Pharo, the lack of global state and the fact that are hard coded. Colors and Themes had the same issue and it was the effort Esteban who wanted to bring the dark theme that really changed this. I suspect like Theme these are legacy Squeak stuff that are not easy to fix.

Ideally shortcuts should be fully customisable with preset support accessible from Pharo user settings. This way for example a vim user could implement his own set of keys after his favorite editor. It would be nice if that became a target for Pharo 7 or at least Pharo 8. No Pharo tool should be allowed to manage its own shortcuts , not even third party tools.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 6:18 PM Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 07.07.2018 um 17:08 schrieb Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Le 07/07/2018 à 16:17, Ben Coman a écrit :
>> Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
>> there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
>> done-deal with Nautilus.
>> Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
>> but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
>> to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
>> reverted to using context menus.
>>
>> I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
>> I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
>> single-key-shortcuts.
>> But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
>> Nautlius was reverted.
>> I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.
>>
> For my part I'm not because before I could delete/rename/add a
> package/class/protocol/method without the mouse but now it became much
> harder with simple key shortcut since it works only on the focused pane.
>
> But I guess this kind of things depend on everyone.
>
> Maybe it could be good to be able to customize it via settings.
>
I don‘t understand anyway why keyboard shortcuts are dependent on a tool. Shouldn‘t there be an abstraction mapping between action and shortcut?

Norbert
>> cheers -ben
>>
>
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
> https://ferlicot.fr
>

EstebanLM

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

Hi,

On 7 Jul 2018, at 17:18, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 07.07.2018 um 17:08 schrieb Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]>:

Le 07/07/2018 à 16:17, Ben Coman a écrit :
Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
done-deal with Nautilus.
Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
reverted to using context menus.

I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
single-key-shortcuts.
But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
Nautlius was reverted.
I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.

For my part I'm not because before I could delete/rename/add a
package/class/protocol/method without the mouse

Yes, but it was not working properly nor everywhere.

but now it became much
harder with simple key shortcut since it works only on the focused pane.

Now in calypso you have cmd+/ who will show you an spotter with all options. You can then select the command you look for. I do not use mouse when using calypso thanks to this addition.

In general, while it requires some time to get used to it (and some options needs renames, etc. to make a better experience) is a lot more powerful than shortcuts (because let’s be realistic there will be always more options than shortcuts available), and makes commands easier to find/learn.

Another thing is that we still need to find which commands deserve a shortcut anyway :)

But I guess this kind of things depend on everyone.

Maybe it could be good to be able to customize it via settings.

I don‘t understand anyway why keyboard shortcuts are dependent on a tool. Shouldn‘t there be an abstraction mapping between action and shortcut?

Because tools as most of the system was badly designed, without a central vision and without and it evolved (mutated?) without any control.

This is changing, but as always iterative development means we cannot just throw everything and start over (something I dream to do, but this will also bring new problems so… :P)

Cheers,

Esteban

Norbert
cheers -ben

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

Tim Mackinnon

Re: Pharo 7 and shortcuts

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

I find the inconsistency the worst problem, sometimes cmd-m sometimes cmd-b,m and sometimes both work. I can handle double keys for lesser used items, but some really common code editing things need a single key.

I would actually like more shortcuts available for code refactoring like inlining etc - and I have a few others I want to add (which are now possible with a contribution I made to P7 that uses the ast to find the best nodes close to you cursor) like widen selection, jump to next code element etc. (Eg catch up with intelliJ).

I guess there are just so many things to clean up, it can be Overwhelming, still, bit by bit.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 7 Jul 2018, at 19:36, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Shortcuts have long been a thorn for Pharo, the lack of global state and the fact that are hard coded. Colors and Themes had the same issue and it was the effort Esteban who wanted to bring the dark theme that really changed this. I suspect like Theme these are legacy Squeak stuff that are not easy to fix.

Ideally shortcuts should be fully customisable with preset support accessible from Pharo user settings. This way for example a vim user could implement his own set of keys after his favorite editor. It would be nice if that became a target for Pharo 7 or at least Pharo 8. No Pharo tool should be allowed to manage its own shortcuts , not even third party tools.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 6:18 PM Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 07.07.2018 um 17:08 schrieb Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Le 07/07/2018 à 16:17, Ben Coman a écrit :
>> Any seeming agreement may just have been the nay-sayers falling silent since
>> there seemed little chance of having it changed when it came as a
>> done-deal with Nautilus.
>> Personally I tried to conform to using the double-sequence-shortcuts
>> but could never get over the cumbersome feel of it,
>> to the point where in Nautlius I actually stopped using shortcuts and
>> reverted to using context menus.
>>
>> I guess lovers of the double-sequence-shortcuts are now in that boat.
>> I'm not sure there was much discussion around Calypso using
>> single-key-shortcuts.
>> But I'm personally very happy with this behaviour change introduced by
>> Nautlius was reverted.
>> I'm glad to using shortcuts in the System Browser again.
>>
> For my part I'm not because before I could delete/rename/add a
> package/class/protocol/method without the mouse but now it became much
> harder with simple key shortcut since it works only on the focused pane.
>
> But I guess this kind of things depend on everyone.
>
> Maybe it could be good to be able to customize it via settings.
>
I don‘t understand anyway why keyboard shortcuts are dependent on a tool. Shouldn‘t there be an abstraction mapping between action and shortcut?

Norbert
>> cheers -ben
>>
>
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
> https://ferlicot.fr
>