Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

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Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Stéphane Ducasse
Hi guys

May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.

We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
WE want to invent and build OUR future.

We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
        - Fuel
        - Athens
        - OPAL
        - Ghost
        - Nautilus
        - Ring
        - NativeBoost
        - Zinc
        - HUGE amount of fixes
        - Working on a core
        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.

We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there.  :)
Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.

You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
make choices and is free.

Stef



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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Geert Claes
Administrator
Can you clarify what exactly you are asking here Stef?  Are you asking why people work on projects like CUIS and Spoon?
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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi Stef,

Dne 24. 04. 2012 11:22, piše Stéphane Ducasse:

> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>
> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
> make choices and is free.

I see the point behind Cuis/Spoon discussion in a wish to avoid
duplication efforts in Smalltalk community. A wish to hear from you a
word, something like: "yes we will look in Cuis to see if we can reuse
some ideas or even code". To express just a will to look at achievements
of others would help here. I think this is what many of us wants to hear.

Best regards
Janko



--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Stéphane Ducasse
>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>>
>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
>> make choices and is free.
>
> I see the point behind Cuis/Spoon discussion in a wish to avoid
> duplication efforts in Smalltalk community. A wish to hear from you a
> word, something like: "yes we will look in Cuis to see if we can reuse
> some ideas or even code". To express just a will to look at achievements
> of others would help here. I think this is what many of us wants to hear.

Did you notice that we ***already*** harvested some of the CUIS items?
Now it does not make sense to stay compatible for the sake of it.
Look CUIS changes the class definition meta data and this is ok. Now nobody went to say
to Juan that he should not … blablbalbalba

Stef

> Best regards
> Janko
>
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>


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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Fernando olivero-2
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
That's a good point. I regularly see that Stef and others harvest
enhancements and fixes from Squeak and CUIS. Surely, the other way
around is also true.

We simply have to live with the fact that many forks exist, and each
of them is maintained by a small set of people who put a lot of energy
into their own system.
And sometimes they will collaborate, and sometimes not.

The community behind Pharo, shouldnt be required to always be aware of
external enhancements. And vice-versa for the remaining forks.

Fernando

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
>>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>>>
>>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
>>> make choices and is free.
>>
>> I see the point behind Cuis/Spoon discussion in a wish to avoid
>> duplication efforts in Smalltalk community. A wish to hear from you a
>> word, something like: "yes we will look in Cuis to see if we can reuse
>> some ideas or even code". To express just a will to look at achievements
>> of others would help here. I think this is what many of us wants to hear.
>
> Did you notice that we ***already*** harvested some of the CUIS items?
> Now it does not make sense to stay compatible for the sake of it.
> Look CUIS changes the class definition meta data and this is ok. Now nobody went to say
> to Juan that he should not … blablbalbalba
>
> Stef
>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Janko Mivšek
>> Aida/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>
>

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Edgar J. De Cleene-3



El 4/24/12 9:09 AM, "Fernando Olivero" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> The community behind Pharo, shouldnt be required to always be aware of
> external enhancements. And vice-versa for the remaining forks.
>
> Fernando

Un libro sabio dice:

Los hermanos sean unidos....

A wise book says:

The brothers are united...

Or Pharo is not descendent of ...... Don't put name here for not irritate
people

Edgar



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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Igor Stasenko
Want X run on Y?
Do it. Port it, implement it.
Why asking or blaming someone for not paying attention to your needs if you
can do it yourself?
I find this approach strange.

Do original authors of pharo/cuis/whatever owe you something?

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

blake watson
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hey, Steph!

Thanks!

:-)

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>
> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
> WE want to invent and build OUR future.

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable
Smalltalk system.  It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one
geared solely towards business.  Pharo, at least to me, feels more
like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business
and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
(such as the ones you listed).  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
and users are expected to build on that directly.

In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small,
vertical system from a larger, horizontal system.  Pavel, Edgar and
you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good
work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the
machine, which will do it quickly and accurately.  The question at the
moment is whether that dream will be realized.  Based on Craig's
Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year
Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.



On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>
> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
> WE want to invent and build OUR future.
>
> We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
>        - Fuel
>        - Athens
>        - OPAL
>        - Ghost
>        - Nautilus
>        - Ring
>        - NativeBoost
>        - Zinc
>        - HUGE amount of fixes
>        - Working on a core
>        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
> to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
>
> We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there.  :)
> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>
> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
> make choices and is free.
>
> Stef
>
>
>

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Pavel Krivanek-3
Hi Chris,

the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and
modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty
automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak
KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results
of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of
information.
The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone
wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But
Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable
than small size.
In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something
like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a
single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may
for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to
create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual
adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story.

-- Pavel


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable
> Smalltalk system.  It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one
> geared solely towards business.  Pharo, at least to me, feels more
> like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business
> and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
> (such as the ones you listed).  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
> and users are expected to build on that directly.
>
> In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small,
> vertical system from a larger, horizontal system.  Pavel, Edgar and
> you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good
> work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the
> machine, which will do it quickly and accurately.  The question at the
> moment is whether that dream will be realized.  Based on Craig's
> Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year
> Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi guys
>>
>> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
>> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>>
>> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
>> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
>> WE want to invent and build OUR future.
>>
>> We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
>>        - Fuel
>>        - Athens
>>        - OPAL
>>        - Ghost
>>        - Nautilus
>>        - Ring
>>        - NativeBoost
>>        - Zinc
>>        - HUGE amount of fixes
>>        - Working on a core
>>        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
>> to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
>>
>> We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there.  :)
>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>>
>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
>> make choices and is free.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

NorbertHartl
Well said!

Norbert

Am 26.04.2012 um 10:19 schrieb Pavel Krivanek:

> Hi Chris,
>
> the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
> are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
> We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and
> modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty
> automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak
> KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results
> of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of
> information.
> The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone
> wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But
> Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable
> than small size.
> In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something
> like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a
> single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may
> for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to
> create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual
> adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story.
>
> -- Pavel
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable
>> Smalltalk system.  It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one
>> geared solely towards business.  Pharo, at least to me, feels more
>> like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business
>> and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
>> (such as the ones you listed).  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
>> and users are expected to build on that directly.
>>
>> In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small,
>> vertical system from a larger, horizontal system.  Pavel, Edgar and
>> you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good
>> work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the
>> machine, which will do it quickly and accurately.  The question at the
>> moment is whether that dream will be realized.  Based on Craig's
>> Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year
>> Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi guys
>>>
>>> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
>>> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>>>
>>> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
>>> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
>>> WE want to invent and build OUR future.
>>>
>>> We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
>>>        - Fuel
>>>        - Athens
>>>        - OPAL
>>>        - Ghost
>>>        - Nautilus
>>>        - Ring
>>>        - NativeBoost
>>>        - Zinc
>>>        - HUGE amount of fixes
>>>        - Working on a core
>>>        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
>>> to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
>>>
>>> We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there.  :)
>>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
>>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>>>
>>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
>>> make choices and is free.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Sven Van Caekenberghe
In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3
+100

Thanks for putting it so clearly, Pavel.

On 26 Apr 2012, at 10:19, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
> are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
> We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and
> modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty
> automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak
> KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results
> of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of
> information.
> The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone
> wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But
> Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable
> than small size.
> In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something
> like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a
> single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may
> for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to
> create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual
> adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story.
>
> -- Pavel
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable
>> Smalltalk system.  It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one
>> geared solely towards business.  Pharo, at least to me, feels more
>> like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business
>> and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
>> (such as the ones you listed).  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
>> and users are expected to build on that directly.
>>
>> In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small,
>> vertical system from a larger, horizontal system.  Pavel, Edgar and
>> you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good
>> work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the
>> machine, which will do it quickly and accurately.  The question at the
>> moment is whether that dream will be realized.  Based on Craig's
>> Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year
>> Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi guys
>>>
>>> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
>>> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>>>
>>> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned with
>>> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
>>> WE want to invent and build OUR future.
>>>
>>> We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
>>>        - Fuel
>>>        - Athens
>>>        - OPAL
>>>        - Ghost
>>>        - Nautilus
>>>        - Ring
>>>        - NativeBoost
>>>        - Zinc
>>>        - HUGE amount of fixes
>>>        - Working on a core
>>>        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
>>> to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
>>>
>>> We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are getting there.  :)
>>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand what is the point.
>>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on that for our future.
>>>
>>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your future. Everybody
>>> make choices and is free.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Edgar J. De Cleene-3
In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3



El 4/26/12 5:19 AM, "Pavel Krivanek" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Hi Chris,
>
> the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
> are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
> We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and
> modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty
> automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak
> KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results
> of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of
> information.
> The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone
> wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But
> Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable
> than small size.
> In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something
> like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a
> single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may
> for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to
> create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual
> adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story.
>
> -- Pavel


Again i ask to fellows on all forks adopt the great work of years from
Pavel.
We should not waste valuable time and instead take PharoKernel and build our
beloved pet on top of it.

Edgar



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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

NorbertHartl

Am 26.04.2012 um 14:05 schrieb Edgar De Cleene:

>
>
>
> El 4/26/12 5:19 AM, "Pavel Krivanek" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
>> are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
>> We also use automatic or semiautomatic tools for shrinking and
>> modularization of the image. For example uMorphic is generated moslty
>> automatically with subsequent hand-made cleanup. The original Squeak
>> KernelImage was generated in the similar way. But we use the results
>> of this tools only as the supporting experimental sources of
>> information.
>> The goals of Cuis, Spoon and Pharo are very very similar. Everyone
>> wants to have the "small, clean, understandable Smalltalk system". But
>> Pharo development is more evolutional and modularity is more valuable
>> than small size.
>> In Smalltalk it is easy to dive into the system and create something
>> like Cuis, Spoon or KernelImage. But this projects were created by a
>> single person and the degree of adoption of this forks is low. You may
>> for example to take the current PharoKernel and withing few days to
>> create a perfect small and clean kernel. It is cool intelectual
>> adventure but to make it generally used stuff is another story.
>>
>> -- Pavel
>
>
> Again i ask to fellows on all forks adopt the great work of years from
> Pavel.
> We should not waste valuable time and instead take PharoKernel and build our
> beloved pet on top of it.
>
That happens anyway for pharo. How could miss it?

Norbert
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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by Fernando olivero-2
On 4/24/12, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That's a good point. I regularly see that Stef and others harvest
> enhancements and fixes from Squeak and CUIS. Surely, the other way
> around is also true.
>
> We simply have to live with the fact that many forks exist, and each
> of them is maintained by a small set of people who put a lot of energy
> into their own system.

Yes.

> And sometimes they will collaborate, and sometimes not.

And this is possible because all is under the MIT license.

> The community behind Pharo, shouldnt be required to always be aware of
> external enhancements. And vice-versa for the remaining forks.

Yes.


--Hannes

> Fernando
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not
>>>> understand what is the point.
>>>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on
>>>> that for our future.
>>>>
>>>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and
>>>> your future. Everybody
>>>> make choices and is free.
>>>
>>> I see the point behind Cuis/Spoon discussion in a wish to avoid
>>> duplication efforts in Smalltalk community. A wish to hear from you a
>>> word, something like: "yes we will look in Cuis to see if we can reuse
>>> some ideas or even code". To express just a will to look at achievements
>>> of others would help here. I think this is what many of us wants to hear.
>>
>> Did you notice that we ***already*** harvested some of the CUIS items?
>> Now it does not make sense to stay compatible for the sake of it.
>> Look CUIS changes the class definition meta data and this is ok. Now
>> nobody went to say
>> to Juan that he should not … blablbalbalba
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Janko Mivšek
>>> Aida/Web
>>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3
Chris Muller-3 wrote
generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
(such as the ones you listed).  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
and users are expected to build on that directly.
Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
the planed changes in Pharo are not autotelic but in most cases they
are replacements of current buggy and unmaintainable subsytems.
Yes this is the key! It's not "let's build all these great frameworks on top of the system", but "we need a clean, beautiful system that people can use and explore and build on without tearing their hair out in frustration" [1] and some of the components are so messy that the only clear path forward is replacement. This is not a criticism of Squeak. Many parts of Squeak (and Squeak itself was intended as just a "tool to think" about the next evolution) were spikes, not real implementations but experiments. So the usual advice that it's better to clean than to rewrite does not apply. Proofs of concept are meant to be thrown away!

Each of these components brings us closer to a clean, beautiful, Smalltalk-inspired system "and users are expected to build on that directly". The Smalltalk-inspired part is crucial also. Until I got that, I was plagued by questions of interoperability and backward-compatibility (which are obviously still nice, but subordinate to evolution).

I see Squeak and Pharo's goals aligning more and more and, sure, it is frustrating to duplicate efforts. Although, maybe we'd all be complacent without the friendly rivalry. As the Zen master said, "we'll see..." [2]

[1] I can't imagine someone putting FileDirectory and friends through serious use and not praying for something like Filesystem. And a programming environment without built-in support for https?? Zodiac is a fundamental piece of the system. These things are not "buzz", but core components that let us get back to work and play, instead of beating our heads against soul-crushing constructs like "FileDirectory extensionFor: file name" instead of "file extension"

[2] A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “We'll see.” 'The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.”

Cheers,
Sean
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

CdAB63
On 26-04-2012 11:31, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

>
> Yes this is the key! It's not "let's build all these great frameworks on top
> of the system", but "we need a clean, beautiful system that people can use
> and explore and build on without tearing their hair out in frustration" [1]
> and some of the components are so messy that the only clear path forward is
> replacement. This is not a criticism of Squeak. Many parts of Squeak (and
> Squeak itself was intended as just a "tool to think" about the next
> evolution) were spikes, not real implementations but experiments. So the
> usual advice that it's better to clean than to rewrite does not apply.
> Proofs of concept are meant to be thrown away!
Yes, that's true: some times replacements are necessary. Thing is that
historical smalltalk distros were not devised in modular way.
Particularly they didn't have the idea of core system and foundation
classes and that lead to a development model that depended on non
orthogonal stuff (meaning: at some point it got difficult to insulate
causes of trouble and fixing one thing lead to problems in other
things). Situation was further complicated by the fact that sometimes
problems found in certain areas were "solved" by building new packages
to deal with them and these new packages should live side by side with
old ones. In terms of maintenance it is pretty like hell.

The efforts of generating minimal images (cores) are extremely healthy:
to do so it is necessary to eliminate much undesired inter-dependencies.
Besides people are minding about the real necessity of having different
things to deal with the same stuff (like file and directory management).
Another aspect of it is that people are enhancing code where possible or
just replacing things that are fubar.

I guess that one thing for immediate future of an open source "industry
grade" smalltalk is to define foundation classes to deal with core
functionality (file and directory management, (inter)networking,
multimedia, interfacing with OS, user interface (including seamless use
of full screen display and OpenGL), etc, etc, etc.

IMO, interfacing with OS and foreign libraries is something that must be
seen "with love" because FFI is not well behaved and as VMs were
designed for past generation x86-32bit (mono-core single-thread)
architectures. There is a lot to do in terms of porting things to the
new 64bit multi-core multi-thread hardware architectures.  I remember
that around 2010 there were hot discussions about having multi-core
multi-thread support in VM but now things are quite silent. Also, the
last things I saw about 64bit images date from 2010.

>
> Each of these components brings us closer to a clean, beautiful,
> Smalltalk-inspired system "and users are expected to build on that
> directly". The Smalltalk-inspired part is crucial also. Until I got that, I
> was plagued by questions of interoperability and backward-compatibility
> (which are obviously still nice, but subordinate to evolution).
>
> I see Squeak and Pharo's goals aligning more and more and, sure, it is
> frustrating to duplicate efforts. Although, maybe we'd all be complacent
> without the friendly rivalry. As the Zen master said, "we'll see..." [2]
>
> [1] I can't imagine someone putting FileDirectory and friends through
> serious use and not praying for something like Filesystem. And a programming
> environment without built-in support for https?? Zodiac is a fundamental
> piece of the system. These things are not "buzz", but core components that
> let us get back to work and play, instead of beating our heads against
> soul-crushing constructs like "FileDirectory extensionFor: file name"
> instead of "file extension"
>
> [2] A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village
> says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says,
> “We'll see.” 'The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in
> the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.” The
> village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But,
> because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how
> wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We'll see.”
>
> Cheers,
> Sean
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-the-rest-of-the-ecosystem-tp4582839p4590003.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
Best regards,

CdAB


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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Stéphane Ducasse

On Apr 26, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote:

> I guess that one thing for immediate future of an open source "industry
> grade" smalltalk is to define foundation classes to deal with core
> functionality (file and directory management, (inter)networking,
> multimedia, interfacing with OS, user interface (including seamless use
> of full screen display and OpenGL), etc, etc, etc.

I hope to start to work on RestrictedSmalltalk once we got the bootstrap up and running.
RestrictedSmalltalk should be closer to Smalltalk than RestrictedPython is from Python :)
but I like the idea that we can understand what is really needed for the core and in particular
from the reflective features.

Stef


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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

NorbertHartl

Am 27.04.2012 um 00:12 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:

>
> On Apr 26, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote:
>
>> I guess that one thing for immediate future of an open source "industry
>> grade" smalltalk is to define foundation classes to deal with core
>> functionality (file and directory management, (inter)networking,
>> multimedia, interfacing with OS, user interface (including seamless use
>> of full screen display and OpenGL), etc, etc, etc.
>
> I hope to start to work on RestrictedSmalltalk once we got the bootstrap up and running.
> RestrictedSmalltalk should be closer to Smalltalk than RestrictedPython is from Python :)
> but I like the idea that we can understand what is really needed for the core and in particular
> from the reflective features.
>
Yes, knowing the foundation where we standing on can be quite life-sustaining. Ok, it's turtles but even the turtles are made of something. I would love to participate with you guys but that's hard if not present in personal, right?
A good sparring-partner will be Craig I think. The last weekend he showed a list of classes and methods that he thinks are essential to do anything useful. A good startpoint for arguing.

Norbert
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Re: Pharo and the rest of the ecosystem

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
On 4/25/12, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I see the "point" of Cuis as to have a small, clean, understandable
> Smalltalk system.

Which is useful for learning...

 It's a *general-purpose* system rather than one
> geared solely towards business.  Pharo, at least to me, feels more
> like the Java ecosystem -- a platform aiming primarily toward business
> and generating plenty of marketing "buzz" with frameworks-of-the-month
> (such as the ones you listed).

And marketing is important as well. Because the general culture of
using programming languages is full of it and there is the notion that
languages have to be developed and every two or three years there
should be something new.

  In Cuis, Smalltalk _is_ the framework
> and users are expected to build on that directly.

Good to spell this out again

   Smalltalk _is_ the framework

However we might need more illustrations for this.

--Hannes

> In my view, Spoon is about letting the machine generate a small,
> vertical system from a larger, horizontal system.  Pavel, Edgar and
> you all have been working on making a smaller system for years (good
> work); but I see the dream of Spoon as delegating that work to the
> machine, which will do it quickly and accurately.  The question at the
> moment is whether that dream will be realized.  Based on Craig's
> Squeak-Board candidacy announcement, I expect 2012 to be the year
> Spoon is born into mainstream-use at least in the Squeak community.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi guys
>>
>> May I ask you why you talk about CUIS and Spoon/Pharo?
>> If you want to work with these systems we do not have any problems.
>>
>> We are working on Pharo since 2008. We deliver regularly, we are concerned
>> with
>> making sure that you can do business with Pharo. And we will continue.
>> WE want to invent and build OUR future.
>>
>> We are spending a lot of time on making the system better.
>>        - Fuel
>>        - Athens
>>        - OPAL
>>        - Ghost
>>        - Nautilus
>>        - Ring
>>        - NativeBoost
>>        - Zinc
>>        - HUGE amount of fixes
>>        - Working on a core
>>        - Writing a lot of documentation (yes guys)
>> to name a few. We are pushing like hell and getting there.
>>
>> We spent time building our vision and step by step building it. We are
>> getting there.  :)
>> Now I do not see the points related to spoon and cuis. I do not understand
>> what is the point.
>> If people wants to collaborate with us this is ok now we do not count on
>> that for our future.
>>
>> You do not have to reply. Just think about what you want to build and your
>> future. Everybody
>> make choices and is free.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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