Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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Hi,
"ScriptLoader loadSeaside30" does not work in latest image due to Gofer changes. Should we remove it or replace it with Metacello configs? It is now easy to build a dev image with seaside 3.0 right from the core (see script below). Still underscore assignment has to be enabled due to OB. Any chance this is cleaned up? Bye T. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |font codeFont titleFont installWebTools| installWebTools := false. "HTTPSocket useProxyServerNamed: '111.111.111.111' port: 8080." Scanner allowUnderscoreAsAssignment: true. Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfPharo'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfPharo) project version: '1.0-rc2.10505') load. Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside30'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSeaside30) loadLatestVersion. SmalltalkImage current snapshot: true andQuit: true. -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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> Still underscore assignment has to be enabled due to OB. Any chance this
> is cleaned up? Where is that? In what package? I thought I cleaned that a long time ago? Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
I would remove it now from scriptLoader.
stef On Jan 12, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > Hi, > > "ScriptLoader loadSeaside30" > > does not work in latest image due to Gofer changes. Should we remove it > or replace it with Metacello configs? > > It is now easy to build a dev image with seaside 3.0 right from the core > (see script below). > > Still underscore assignment has to be enabled due to OB. Any chance this > is cleaned up? > > Bye > T. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > |font codeFont titleFont installWebTools| > installWebTools := false. > "HTTPSocket useProxyServerNamed: '111.111.111.111' port: 8080." > > Scanner allowUnderscoreAsAssignment: true. > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfPharo'; > load. > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfPharo) project version: '1.0-rc2.10505') load. > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside30'; > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSeaside30) loadLatestVersion. > > > SmalltalkImage current snapshot: true andQuit: true. > > > -- > Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - > sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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Maybe Lukas you fixed in your repo and was never merged in wiresong repo, so Torsted see one repo and you see anther one ;)
No, you shouldn't use ScriptLoader to load external packages. For example, we use to use ScriptLoader loadFFI or OB, or whatever, but now, we have almost all Metacello configurations for that, and if there is something not done, would be cool to do it. On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: I would remove it now from scriptLoader. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 14:49 +0100, Stéphane Ducasse escribió: > I would remove it now from scriptLoader. > And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as package management tools. Cheers > stef > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > "ScriptLoader loadSeaside30" > > > > does not work in latest image due to Gofer changes. Should we remove it > > or replace it with Metacello configs? > > > > It is now easy to build a dev image with seaside 3.0 right from the core > > (see script below). > > > > Still underscore assignment has to be enabled due to OB. Any chance this > > is cleaned up? > > > > Bye > > T. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > |font codeFont titleFont installWebTools| > > installWebTools := false. > > "HTTPSocket useProxyServerNamed: '111.111.111.111' port: 8080." > > > > Scanner allowUnderscoreAsAssignment: true. > > > > Gofer new > > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > > package: 'ConfigurationOfPharo'; > > load. > > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfPharo) project version: '1.0-rc2.10505') load. > > > > Gofer new > > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > > package: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside30'; > > load. > > > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSeaside30) loadLatestVersion. > > > > > > SmalltalkImage current snapshot: true andQuit: true. > > > > > > -- > > Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - > > sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Since I'm maintaining the Seaside3.0 config, I am probably at fault on this one although I haven't run into a problem with underscore assignment ... How do I run a pharo image that _does not_ allow underscore assignment?
Specifically, the Seaside3.0 config is not using the Swazoo code that Lukas modified (I assume this is what Lukas is referring to), because it departs from the naming convention used by the Swazoo folks and as a result causes problems when one tries to load the latest version of the package....I've got write permission on the Swazoo repository, but I'm still in the process of negotiating a proper name for the package (on very low back burner), so if this is popping to the surface as an issue, I'll "raise the heat". Dale ----- "Torsten Bergmann" <[hidden email]> wrote: | Hi, | | "ScriptLoader loadSeaside30" | | does not work in latest image due to Gofer changes. Should we remove | it | or replace it with Metacello configs? | | It is now easy to build a dev image with seaside 3.0 right from the | core | (see script below). | | Still underscore assignment has to be enabled due to OB. Any chance | this | is cleaned up? | | Bye | T. | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | |font codeFont titleFont installWebTools| | installWebTools := false. | "HTTPSocket useProxyServerNamed: '111.111.111.111' port: 8080." | | Scanner allowUnderscoreAsAssignment: true. | | Gofer new | squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; | package: 'ConfigurationOfPharo'; | load. | ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfPharo) project version: | '1.0-rc2.10505') load. | | Gofer new | squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; | package: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside30'; | load. | | (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSeaside30) loadLatestVersion. | | | SmalltalkImage current snapshot: true andQuit: true. | | | -- | Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox | 3.5 - | sicherer, schneller und einfacher! | http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | [hidden email] | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please.
> > Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > package management tools. These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not supposed to be called for loading stuff. I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 19:25 +0100, Lukas Renggli escribió:
> > And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > > > > Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > > package management tools. > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) But for some users they are causing confusion, given the current soup of install tools. If you don't mind, I really delete them or at least put a big advise in the comment to not use them because any momento will be outdated and maybe linking to the metacello instructions. You can always keep use them if you know they are correct for you. What do you think? > > Lukas > > -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. >> >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as >> package management tools. > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) :) well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to scriptLoader Stef > > Lukas > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1791
:) On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote: > El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 19:25 +0100, Lukas Renggli escribió: >>> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. >>> >>> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as >>> package management tools. >> >> These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not >> supposed to be called for loading stuff. >> >> I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > But for some users they are causing confusion, given the current soup of > install tools. > If you don't mind, I really delete them or at least put a big advise in > the comment to not use them because any momento will be outdated and > maybe linking to the metacello instructions. You can always keep use > them if you know they are correct for you. > > What do you think? > >> >> Lukas >> >> > > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
With stipulation of the fact that helper methods can be taken too far, what is wrong with something like
Gofer loadSeaside28? Answer: nothing if it hides the details of using the configuration. The problem with the FFI, Seaside, etc. load methods is not that they exist, it is that they use obsolete techniques and/or are broken. One question in my mind is how to replace ScriptLoader class>>loadLatestPackage:fromRepository:. Will Gofer new add:packageName; repository:aRepository; load take care of that? Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. >> >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as >> package management tools. > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) :) well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to scriptLoader Stef > > Lukas > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 14:41 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:
> With stipulation of the fact that helper methods can be taken too far, what is wrong with something like > > Gofer loadSeaside28? > > Answer: nothing if it hides the details of using the configuration. The problem with the FFI, Seaside, etc. load methods is not that they exist, it is that they use obsolete techniques and/or are broken. > > One question in my mind is how to replace ScriptLoader class>>loadLatestPackage:fromRepository:. Will > > Gofer new > add:packageName; > repository:aRepository; > load > > take care of that? Have you at least read the tutorial of Metacello, they very clearly show why is necessary a package management tool and not only a packag installer (what gofer is). Remember, one tool for the job. A tool can't do everything. The best is to have gofer to download/install/uninstall/update/remove individual packages inside the image, and metacello keep track of dependencies, configuration, groups of packages loaded together, groups of packages for distinct forks, etc. And again, ScriptLoader, as I understand it, was never intended for public comsumption. It is in the image because the group releasing pharo and squeak was very small and needed a tool for preparing the image in a time when no proper package management tool existed. Now that tool exist and there is no reason to keep the old tools no matter how many pages you find in google pointing to obsolete instructions. They will be substituted by new docs/tutorials/blog posts that use the new tools. Meanwhile, there will be confusion, granted, but in the end it will be better than the mess we have now. Cheers > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > >> > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > >> package management tools. > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > :) > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to scriptLoader > > Stef > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > -- > > Lukas Renggli > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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+1
> Remember, one tool for the job. A tool can't do everything. The best is > to have gofer to download/install/uninstall/update/remove individual > packages inside the image, and metacello keep track of dependencies, > configuration, groups of packages loaded together, groups of packages > for distinct forks, etc. > > And again, ScriptLoader, as I understand it, was never intended for > public comsumption. It is in the image because the group releasing pharo > and squeak was very small and needed a tool for preparing the image in a > time when no proper package management tool existed. Now that tool exist > and there is no reason to keep the old tools no matter how many pages > you find in google pointing to obsolete instructions. They will be > substituted by new docs/tutorials/blog posts that use the new tools. > > Meanwhile, there will be confusion, granted, but in the end it will be > better than the mess we have now. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
And to hopefully put an end to the discussion, the current
no-package-management-tool situation is akin to the windows world where there are thousands of installers (.cab, .exe, .zip, etc) for each of the available applications. Where we want to get is to the Linux world that have a pair of standardized tools to do *proper* package management that upload a given installation by updating all the appropriate packages and solving the dependencies and conflicts that may occur. This for example, permits to upgrade a debian installation between major releases without need to reinstall everything each time. In this order of ideas, Pharo Debian(deb based) Fedora (rpm based) Metacello aptitude yum Gofer dpkg rpm Monticello .deb package .rpm package SAR/changeset .tar.gz .tar.gz not exactly equivalent but roughly. Cheers > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > >> > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > >> package management tools. > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > :) > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to scriptLoader > > Stef > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > -- > > Lukas Renggli > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
I am trying understand how to cope with yet another change. In my own world, newer is always better (to avoid losing work), and anything more sophisticated than that will only cause trouble.
No argument that a package management system is a good thing for complicated projects released to large audiences. But I fail to see how having all of using many lines of code for (what should be for the consumer) simple tasks does any good over Gofer loadSeaside28 with its entrails coded in terms of the correct way to load the thing. The way this is trending, you will end up with people using the wrong version or whatever else is needed to make the package management system do the right thing. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:14 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 14:41 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió: > With stipulation of the fact that helper methods can be taken too far, > what is wrong with something like > > Gofer loadSeaside28? > > Answer: nothing if it hides the details of using the configuration. The problem with the FFI, Seaside, etc. load methods is not that they exist, it is that they use obsolete techniques and/or are broken. > > One question in my mind is how to replace ScriptLoader > class>>loadLatestPackage:fromRepository:. Will > > Gofer new > add:packageName; > repository:aRepository; > load > > take care of that? Have you at least read the tutorial of Metacello, they very clearly show why is necessary a package management tool and not only a packag installer (what gofer is). Remember, one tool for the job. A tool can't do everything. The best is to have gofer to download/install/uninstall/update/remove individual packages inside the image, and metacello keep track of dependencies, configuration, groups of packages loaded together, groups of packages for distinct forks, etc. And again, ScriptLoader, as I understand it, was never intended for public comsumption. It is in the image because the group releasing pharo and squeak was very small and needed a tool for preparing the image in a time when no proper package management tool existed. Now that tool exist and there is no reason to keep the old tools no matter how many pages you find in google pointing to obsolete instructions. They will be substituted by new docs/tutorials/blog posts that use the new tools. Meanwhile, there will be confusion, granted, but in the end it will be better than the mess we have now. Cheers > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > >> > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > >> package management tools. > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > :) > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to > scriptLoader > > Stef > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > -- > > Lukas Renggli > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
You are forgetting the time-tested trick of copying files and getting back to work. Sometimes that is preferred, and I'm trying figure out how I'm going to get that level of functionality.
-----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:23 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 And to hopefully put an end to the discussion, the current no-package-management-tool situation is akin to the windows world where there are thousands of installers (.cab, .exe, .zip, etc) for each of the available applications. Where we want to get is to the Linux world that have a pair of standardized tools to do *proper* package management that upload a given installation by updating all the appropriate packages and solving the dependencies and conflicts that may occur. This for example, permits to upgrade a debian installation between major releases without need to reinstall everything each time. In this order of ideas, Pharo Debian(deb based) Fedora (rpm based) Metacello aptitude yum Gofer dpkg rpm Monticello .deb package .rpm package SAR/changeset .tar.gz .tar.gz not exactly equivalent but roughly. Cheers > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > >> > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > >> package management tools. > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > :) > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to > scriptLoader > > Stef > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > -- > > Lukas Renggli > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 16:29 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:
> I am trying understand how to cope with yet another change. In my own world, newer is always better (to avoid losing work), and anything more sophisticated than that will only cause trouble. > > No argument that a package management system is a good thing for complicated projects released to large audiences. But I fail to see how having all of using many lines of code for (what should be for the consumer) simple tasks does any good over > > Gofer loadSeaside28 But that is the task that Loader is aiming for. Remember, one tool for each task. Gofer can remain clean. And Loader can be as short as possible for end users. And remember, Loader hasn't been announced yet. So until that, lets not add more than necessary functionality to the current tools. Cheers. > > with its entrails coded in terms of the correct way to load the thing. The way this is trending, you will end up with people using the wrong version or whatever else is needed to make the package management system do the right thing. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:14 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 14:41 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió: > > With stipulation of the fact that helper methods can be taken too far, > > what is wrong with something like > > > > Gofer loadSeaside28? > > > > Answer: nothing if it hides the details of using the configuration. The problem with the FFI, Seaside, etc. load methods is not that they exist, it is that they use obsolete techniques and/or are broken. > > > > One question in my mind is how to replace ScriptLoader > > class>>loadLatestPackage:fromRepository:. Will > > > > Gofer new > > add:packageName; > > repository:aRepository; > > load > > > > take care of that? > > Have you at least read the tutorial of Metacello, they very clearly show why is necessary a package management tool and not only a packag installer (what gofer is). > > Remember, one tool for the job. A tool can't do everything. The best is to have gofer to download/install/uninstall/update/remove individual packages inside the image, and metacello keep track of dependencies, configuration, groups of packages loaded together, groups of packages for distinct forks, etc. > > And again, ScriptLoader, as I understand it, was never intended for public comsumption. It is in the image because the group releasing pharo and squeak was very small and needed a tool for preparing the image in a time when no proper package management tool existed. Now that tool exist and there is no reason to keep the old tools no matter how many pages you find in google pointing to obsolete instructions. They will be substituted by new docs/tutorials/blog posts that use the new tools. > > Meanwhile, there will be confusion, granted, but in the end it will be better than the mess we have now. > > Cheers > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > > Stéphane Ducasse > > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > > To: [hidden email] > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > > >> > > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello as > > >> package management tools. > > > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > > > :) > > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to > > scriptLoader > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lukas Renggli > > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pharo-project mailing list > > > [hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo core and Seaside 3.0
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Fair enough, but I think you are drawing questionable distictions between tool and implemtation details. There is little difference between Loader (good) as a separate class and helper methods on the class side of Gofer (bad). Of course, if we could easily put some loose methods on the class side of Gofer, we would not be searching for a pakage management system (we'd already have one).
Loader will be welcome. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:37 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 16:29 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió: > I am trying understand how to cope with yet another change. In my own world, newer is always better (to avoid losing work), and anything more sophisticated than that will only cause trouble. > > No argument that a package management system is a good thing for > complicated projects released to large audiences. But I fail to see > how having all of using many lines of code for (what should be for the > consumer) simple tasks does any good over > > Gofer loadSeaside28 But that is the task that Loader is aiming for. Remember, one tool for each task. Gofer can remain clean. And Loader can be as short as possible for end users. And remember, Loader hasn't been announced yet. So until that, lets not add more than necessary functionality to the current tools. Cheers. > > with its entrails coded in terms of the correct way to load the thing. The way this is trending, you will end up with people using the wrong version or whatever else is needed to make the package management system do the right thing. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:14 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > El mar, 12-01-2010 a las 14:41 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió: > > With stipulation of the fact that helper methods can be taken too > > far, what is wrong with something like > > > > Gofer loadSeaside28? > > > > Answer: nothing if it hides the details of using the configuration. The problem with the FFI, Seaside, etc. load methods is not that they exist, it is that they use obsolete techniques and/or are broken. > > > > One question in my mind is how to replace ScriptLoader > > class>>loadLatestPackage:fromRepository:. Will > > > > Gofer new > > add:packageName; > > repository:aRepository; > > load > > > > take care of that? > > Have you at least read the tutorial of Metacello, they very clearly show why is necessary a package management tool and not only a packag installer (what gofer is). > > Remember, one tool for the job. A tool can't do everything. The best is to have gofer to download/install/uninstall/update/remove individual packages inside the image, and metacello keep track of dependencies, configuration, groups of packages loaded together, groups of packages for distinct forks, etc. > > And again, ScriptLoader, as I understand it, was never intended for public comsumption. It is in the image because the group releasing pharo and squeak was very small and needed a tool for preparing the image in a time when no proper package management tool existed. Now that tool exist and there is no reason to keep the old tools no matter how many pages you find in google pointing to obsolete instructions. They will be substituted by new docs/tutorials/blog posts that use the new tools. > > Meanwhile, there will be confusion, granted, but in the end it will be better than the mess we have now. > > Cheers > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > > Stéphane Ducasse > > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:36 PM > > To: [hidden email] > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo core and Seaside 3.0 > > > > > > On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:25 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > > > >> And also the class side install methods of Gofer please. > > >> > > >> Lets clean the way for Gofer as downloader/installer, Metacello > > >> as package management tools. > > > > > > These are examples to demonstrate how gofer works. They are not > > > supposed to be called for loading stuff. > > > > > > I am just using them all the time to keep my images up to date :-) > > > > :) > > well this was the same for scriptLoader :) I will pay attention to > > scriptLoader > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > Lukas > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lukas Renggli > > > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pharo-project mailing list > > > [hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-projec > > > t > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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