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Adam-2

Pharo family update

Hello,

I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.

Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of interests
- something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields devided into
some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while elsewhere it is
too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my mind.

It should help people to:
- identify important classes in Pharo,
- select right project,
- understand what is application, tool or framework,
- see what is allready inside main Pharo image.

I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
enterprise ready projects.

As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill this.
But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of interest,
subjects, adding/removing projects etc...

I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
the drawing (I will correct this if needed).

Adam.

pharo-family1.svg (908K) Download Attachment

pharo-family1.pdf (343K) Download Attachment

CyrilFerlicot

Re: Pharo family update

Le 23/10/2015 23:58, Adam a écrit :

> Hello,
>
> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
>
> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of interests
> - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields devided into
> some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while elsewhere it is
> too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my mind.
>
> It should help people to:
> - identify important classes in Pharo,
> - select right project,
> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
>
> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
> enterprise ready projects.
>
> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill this.
> But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of interest,
> subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
>
> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
>
> Adam.
>

Hi,

This is really great and valuable! I think this should be add to
pharo.org because this is really helpful for new users that are not on
the mailing list.

Here some feedback:
- I think Pillar is more an application than a Framework.
- For the Games there is Metaborg I thank.
- Maybe you should add the CatalogBrowser to "Deployment"? Or is it too
small?
- Maybe FFI should be added?
- Maybe GitFileTree should be added?
- Maybe OSProcess should be added?
- Maybe Spec should be added?

But you did a great job! :)

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

signature.asc (836 bytes) Download Attachment

hernanmd

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Hello Adam,

Some feedback about the visualization:

- The OmniBrowser is not supported anymore in Pharo. You could add Nautilus which is the browser implementation (but not a browser library).

- Monticello, Gofer and Metacello could be closer. I think Versionner and FileTree (or GitFileTree) should be in.

- Finder could be in near Spotter (I never used Spotter).

- Event "framework" is missing (Announcement).

- Mondorian -> Mondrian. But I think that is part of Roassal now (same with Grapher).

- There could be another category for Science with SciSmalltalk (and BioSmalltalk of course :)
- CommandShell, OSProcess, ProcessWrapper, FFI.

- Spec could be added too.

- The Twitter Bootstrap is nice too.

- Logging support?

- VM packages?

About categories I would group in different way but it's personal choice. Like Reflection, Code Analysis, Persistency, App Model Frameworks (Chalten, Aconcagua), etc

Cheers,

Hernán

2015-10-23 18:58 GMT-03:00 Adam <[hidden email]>:

Hello,

I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.

Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of interests
- something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields devided into
some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while elsewhere it is
too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my mind.

It should help people to:
- identify important classes in Pharo,
- select right project,
- understand what is application, tool or framework,
- see what is allready inside main Pharo image.

I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
enterprise ready projects.

As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill this.
But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of interest,
subjects, adding/removing projects etc...

I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
the drawing (I will correct this if needed).

Adam.

Offray

Re: Pharo family update

Hi Adam,

Thanks for this work. It helps a lot. Some suggestions:

- I would put "(beginners) education" instead of learning for DrGeo and Phratch
- I would add AidaWeb to the Web Development spot and put Import/Export and output near to data, because is closer to the path I have taken in my own newbie project.

At some point I think that maybe in another graph, would be nice to put "problems" instead of themes. For example, for my problem (interactive writing) I have used Roassal, Spec, Ston, GT Browsers and I think that most of the times you're driven by problems more that themes. So may be, once you have your family diagram ready, we can see how to complement it showing problems related to the projects we're making.

I wonder how can something like that be mapped on Roassal (but your SVG's are pretty fancy).

Keep the good work,

Offray

On 23/10/15 18:24, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:

Hello Adam,

Some feedback about the visualization:

- The OmniBrowser is not supported anymore in Pharo. You could add Nautilus which is the browser implementation (but not a browser library).

- Monticello, Gofer and Metacello could be closer. I think Versionner and FileTree (or GitFileTree) should be in.

- Finder could be in near Spotter (I never used Spotter).

- Event "framework" is missing (Announcement).

- Mondorian -> Mondrian. But I think that is part of Roassal now (same with Grapher).

- There could be another category for Science with SciSmalltalk (and BioSmalltalk of course :)
- CommandShell, OSProcess, ProcessWrapper, FFI.

- Spec could be added too.

- The Twitter Bootstrap is nice too.

- Logging support?

- VM packages?

About categories I would group in different way but it's personal choice. Like Reflection, Code Analysis, Persistency, App Model Frameworks (Chalten, Aconcagua), etc

Cheers,

Hernán

2015-10-23 18:58 GMT-03:00 Adam <[hidden email]>:

Hello,

I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.

Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of interests
- something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields devided into
some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while elsewhere it is
too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my mind.

It should help people to:
- identify important classes in Pharo,
- select right project,
- understand what is application, tool or framework,
- see what is allready inside main Pharo image.

I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
enterprise ready projects.

As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill this.
But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of interest,
subjects, adding/removing projects etc...

I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
the drawing (I will correct this if needed).

Adam.

stepharo

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Superb! Really nice
Margritte -> Magritte
Mondorian -> Mondrian

to add

Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database
generic API)

You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage

GLORP
Relational
Mapper

Woden 3D
Roassal3D

Omnibrowser is deprecated

I would put STON close to Fuel
May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data

Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it
Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)

About Graphics

you should have
Athens (Vector graphics API)
Bloc (new generation Morphic)
Brick (new generation widgets)

Le 23/10/15 23:58, Adam a écrit :

HilaireFernandes

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Le 23/10/2015 23:58, Adam a écrit :
> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
Wow, It is simply M-A-R-V-E-L-L-O-U-S, really.
You put in a clear and elegant way the Pharo ecosystem.

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

http://drgeo.eu

CyrilFerlicot

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by stepharo

Le 24/10/2015 09:27, stepharo a écrit :

> Superb! Really nice
> Margritte -> Magritte
> Mondorian -> Mondrian
>
> to add
>
> Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database
> generic API)
>
> You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage
>
> GLORP
> Relational
> Mapper
>
> Woden 3D
> Roassal3D
>
> Omnibrowser is deprecated
>
> I would put STON close to Fuel
> May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data
>
> Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it
> Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)
>
> About Graphics
>
> you should have
> Athens (Vector graphics API)
> Bloc (new generation Morphic)
> Brick (new generation widgets)
>
>

Hi,

I do not agree to add Reef, Bloc and Brick now if this map is for beginners.
If this map is for beginners that need a framework we should wait to
have a usable version with documentation.
I think Bloc and Brick are not finish yet (I think) and reef lack
documentation/tutorial.

If a beginner see it on the map and test it he will have a bad first
impression. And first impression count.

This project should be on a waiting list the time there are stable and
documented I think. But this is just my opinion.

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

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Martin Bähr

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Excerpts from Adam's message of 2015-10-23 23:58:48 +0200:
> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
>
> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of interests
> - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields devided into
> some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while elsewhere it is
> too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my mind.

this looks great!
i would order the topics so that related ones are next to each other, for
example it is a bit puzzling why http/zinc is not part of webdevelopment, but
if you order them so that you have
development - web - server ... then zinc and web would be very close and
the exact category would not matter. it could even be in the middle.

same goes for monticello and metacello. aren't they closely related? why is one
in development, the other in working?

putting working next to development would solve that.

i think this order would place related topics close to each other:
working - development - web - server - connectors - data - model - import/export - output - graphics

closing the circle, graphics touches working which relates to the games and
multimedia subtopics too.

this is actually something i preferred from the first version. it was more
fuzzy and didn't make such absolute statements where something belongs that
people could argue about. (ok, maybe i am the only one arguing :-)

> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).

maybe also put the svg on github so that people can fork and update it?

greetings, martin.

--
eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life
--
chief engineer eKita.co
pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org
secretary beijinglug.org
mentor fossasia.org
foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com
unix sysadmin
Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

Adam-2

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot

Wow,

thanks for great feedback to everyone. I will try to modify drawings by your
sugestions. Here is few questions:

- Aida web framework is ready for Pharo? In Pharo Catalog it is labeled as
unstable.
- FFI by this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/30322445/pharo-4-ffi-current-state-and-the-future have more implementations - which one I should
put into drawing?
- Event framework is complete framework? I found EventRecorder and EventModel.
Aren't events part of Morphic?

Adam

Dne So 24. října 2015 13:30:25, Ferlicot D. Cyril napsal(a):

> Le 24/10/2015 09:27, stepharo a écrit :
> > Superb! Really nice
> > Margritte -> Magritte
> > Mondorian -> Mondrian
> >
> > to add
> >
> > Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database
> > generic API)
> >
> > You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage
> >
> > GLORP
> >
> > Relational
> > Mapper
> >
> > Woden 3D
> > Roassal3D
> >
> > Omnibrowser is deprecated
> >
> > I would put STON close to Fuel
> > May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data
> >
> > Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it
> > Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)
> >
> > About Graphics
> >
> > you should have
> >
> > Athens (Vector graphics API)
> > Bloc (new generation Morphic)
> > Brick (new generation widgets)
>
> Hi,
>
> I do not agree to add Reef, Bloc and Brick now if this map is for beginners.
> If this map is for beginners that need a framework we should wait to have a
> usable version with documentation.
> I think Bloc and Brick are not finish yet (I think) and reef lack
> documentation/tutorial.
>
> If a beginner see it on the map and test it he will have a bad first
> impression. And first impression count.
>
> This project should be on a waiting list the time there are stable and
> documented I think. But this is just my opinion.

Adam-2

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Hello,

next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is implemented
into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not found
enough information, or something like that).

Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries and
frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if Gofer
and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure), it
should be in "Working" circle.

"Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal" people.
Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...

"Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to other
parties.

Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing else
is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles are main
groups of libraries and frameworks.

Adam

Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):

> Hello,
>
> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
>
> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields
> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my
> mind.
>
> It should help people to:
> - identify important classes in Pharo,
> - select right project,
> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
>
> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
> enterprise ready projects.
>
> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of
> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
>
> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
>
> Adam.

pharo-family2.pdf (361K) Download Attachment

pharo-family2.svg (1M) Download Attachment

SergeStinckwich

Re: Pharo family update

Great job ! This could be a great poster ;-)

Maybe you have to put Pharo Logo in the middle and enhance the fonts
of different topics in blue circle (Server, Data, etc ...) so the
people can read them more easily.

Regards,

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Adam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is implemented
> into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not found
> enough information, or something like that).
>
> Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries and
> frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
> about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if Gofer
> and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure), it
> should be in "Working" circle.
>
> "Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal" people.
> Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...
>
> "Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to other
> parties.
>
> Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing else
> is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles are main
> groups of libraries and frameworks.
>
> Adam
>
> Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):
>> Hello,
>>
>> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
>>
>> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
>> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields
>> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
>> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in my
>> mind.
>>
>> It should help people to:
>> - identify important classes in Pharo,
>> - select right project,
>> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
>> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
>>
>> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
>> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
>> enterprise ready projects.
>>
>> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
>> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of
>> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
>>
>> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent with
>> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
>>
>> Adam.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Ben Coman

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot

Thanks Adam. This is a great initiative. I really like the
internal/external distinction.

A few questions...

Why is "Compilers" outside the circle?

What is the "VB" part of "VB-Regex" ?

and a few suggestions...

> About categories I would group in different way but it's personal choice. Like...
> Reflection

It would be nice to emphasise our reflective capability, but what
would be some subparts?

> Code Analysis

This could just be "Analysis" and include Moose and SciSmalltalk.

> Persistency

Maybe "Connectors" could be renamed to "Persistence".

It would be good to promote in-Image persistence solutions since that
is a speed advantage for prototyping. btw, Is SimplePersistance
stable enough to be included?
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/SimplePersistence

I don't think Magma and SandstoneDb provide services to other clients
(??) and so don't seem related to "Server" and would group better with
"Connectors/Persistence". That does then leave "Server" a bit bare.
Perhaps "RemoteFrameBuffer" would be a good fit.

"Output" is a bit too much like "Export". Perhaps it could be renamed
"Presentation"

The legend could be moved to a corner (bottom left?), and "Pharo"
could be moved more centrally to its place. In another shaded corner
you might list the major repositories:
* smalltalkhub.com
* ss3.gemtalksystems.com
* squeaksource.com
Anyone with further ideas for the other two corners?

I'm not sure that "Define" is the right tag for "Magritte". I think
its an implementation of the "Momento" pattern, so maybe that would be
better (or maybe that is too exotic?). Would it be reasonable to tag
it s "Forms" (??)

"Fuel" would seem to go better near STON/JSON on "Import/Export".

As well as "SUnit" as a framework, "Testing" should have "TestRunner"
and a tool.

"Searching > Spotter" would go well up next to "Finder"

"Monticello" should go closer to "Metacello" and is perhaps a good fit
to move it down to "Working", and also Versioneer is closely related
to "Metacello". "Metacello" and "CatalogBrowser" would do well to
be tagged together as "Deployment"

I like that you've got "Computations" with SciSmalltalk and
BioSmalltalk, but actually it might be good to repurpose this
"Downstream Distributions". I think such a section demostrates a
level of maturity of a system, which is important to show. This might
then also include Moose, Phratch, Dr.Geo and PharoROS(?). Chalten and
Aconcagua might be re-homed under "Data."

"Spec" and "Athens" are internal to Pharo.

whoops. thats a lot. Some parts I'm not sure on - wait and see what
others think.
cheers -ben

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Ferlicot D. Cyril
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 24/10/2015 09:27, stepharo a écrit :
>> Superb! Really nice
>> Margritte -> Magritte
>> Mondorian -> Mondrian
>>
>> to add
>>
>> Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database
>> generic API)
>>
>> You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage
>>
>> GLORP
>> Relational
>> Mapper
>>
>> Woden 3D
>> Roassal3D
>>
>> Omnibrowser is deprecated
>>
>> I would put STON close to Fuel
>> May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data
>>
>> Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it
>> Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)
>>
>> About Graphics
>>
>> you should have
>> Athens (Vector graphics API)
>> Bloc (new generation Morphic)
>> Brick (new generation widgets)
>>
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I do not agree to add Reef, Bloc and Brick now if this map is for beginners.
> If this map is for beginners that need a framework we should wait to
> have a usable version with documentation.
> I think Bloc and Brick are not finish yet (I think) and reef lack
> documentation/tutorial.
>
> If a beginner see it on the map and test it he will have a bad first
> impression. And first impression count.
>
> This project should be on a waiting list the time there are stable and
> documented I think. But this is just my opinion.
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
>
> http://www.synectique.eu
>
> 165 Avenue Bretagne
> Lille 59000 France
>

hernanmd

Re: Pharo family update

2015-10-26 11:08 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

Thanks Adam. This is a great initiative. I really like the
internal/external distinction.

A few questions...

Why is "Compilers" outside the circle?

What is the "VB" part of "VB-Regex" ?

Vassili Bykov was the original author of Regex11 and later it was renamed.

and a few suggestions...

> About categories I would group in different way but it's personal choice. Like...
> Reflection

It would be nice to emphasise our reflective capability, but what
would be some subparts?

Reflection is commonly decomposed in two parts: Introspection and intercession.

> Code Analysis

This could just be "Analysis" and include Moose and SciSmalltalk.

> Persistency

Maybe "Connectors" could be renamed to "Persistence".

Yes, besides that would avoid confusion with the Connectors package.

It would be good to promote in-Image persistence solutions since that
is a speed advantage for prototyping. btw, Is SimplePersistance
stable enough to be included?
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/SimplePersistence

I don't know about SimplePersistence but in-image persistence is a cool feature that other technologies lack.

I don't think Magma and SandstoneDb provide services to other clients
(??) and so don't seem related to "Server" and would group better with
"Connectors/Persistence". That does then leave "Server" a bit bare.
Perhaps "RemoteFrameBuffer" would be a good fit.

"Output" is a bit too much like "Export". Perhaps it could be renamed
"Presentation"

The legend could be moved to a corner (bottom left?), and "Pharo"
could be moved more centrally to its place. In another shaded corner
you might list the major repositories:
* smalltalkhub.com
* ss3.gemtalksystems.com
* squeaksource.com
Anyone with further ideas for the other two corners?

I'm not sure that "Define" is the right tag for "Magritte". I think
its an implementation of the "Momento" pattern, so maybe that would be
better (or maybe that is too exotic?). Would it be reasonable to tag
it s "Forms" (??)

That would require multi-class multi-label classification, because Magritte (and other packages) cover many areas.

"Fuel" would seem to go better near STON/JSON on "Import/Export".

As well as "SUnit" as a framework, "Testing" should have "TestRunner"
and a tool.

Agree, the TestRunner is important.

"Searching > Spotter" would go well up next to "Finder"

"Monticello" should go closer to "Metacello" and is perhaps a good fit
to move it down to "Working", and also Versioneer is closely related
to "Metacello". "Metacello" and "CatalogBrowser" would do well to
be tagged together as "Deployment"

I like that you've got "Computations" with SciSmalltalk and
BioSmalltalk, but actually it might be good to repurpose this
"Downstream Distributions". I think such a section demostrates a
level of maturity of a system, which is important to show. This might
then also include Moose, Phratch, Dr.Geo and PharoROS(?). Chalten and
Aconcagua might be re-homed under "Data."

Yes, I suspect it could be solved with multi-class multi-label tags.

"Spec" and "Athens" are internal to Pharo.

I don't see why internal?
Does that mean it wouldn''t be ported to other ST flavors?

whoops. thats a lot. Some parts I'm not sure on - wait and see what
others think.
cheers -ben

Really nice diagram, but it needs more promoting outside the Smalltalk circle.

Hernán

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Ferlicot D. Cyril
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Le 24/10/2015 09:27, stepharo a écrit :
>> Superb! Really nice
>> Margritte -> Magritte
>> Mondorian -> Mondrian
>>
>> to add
>>
>> Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database
>> generic API)
>>
>> You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage
>>
>> GLORP
>> Relational
>> Mapper
>>
>> Woden 3D
>> Roassal3D
>>
>> Omnibrowser is deprecated
>>
>> I would put STON close to Fuel
>> May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data
>>
>> Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it
>> Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)
>>
>> About Graphics
>>
>> you should have
>> Athens (Vector graphics API)
>> Bloc (new generation Morphic)
>> Brick (new generation widgets)
>>
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I do not agree to add Reef, Bloc and Brick now if this map is for beginners.
> If this map is for beginners that need a framework we should wait to
> have a usable version with documentation.
> I think Bloc and Brick are not finish yet (I think) and reef lack
> documentation/tutorial.
>
> If a beginner see it on the map and test it he will have a bad first
> impression. And first impression count.
>
> This project should be on a waiting list the time there are stable and
> documented I think. But this is just my opinion.
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
>
> http://www.synectique.eu
>
> 165 Avenue Bretagne
> Lille 59000 France
>

Martin Bähr

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

Excerpts from Adam's message of 2015-10-26 01:23:09 +0100:
> Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries and
> frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
> about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if Gofer
> and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure), it
> should be in "Working" circle.

thanks for clarifying that. now i understand the difference. of course they are
related, but one is used by people who want to install software, while the
other is used by developers managing their cod

i wonder if "development" could have a better name, like "tools" or "development tools"

and if most things are about development, then "web development" might be "web
frameworks" or just "web" because otherwise it gives the impression that other
things would not be about development.

one more thing, i find the grey-on-white small text hard to read. i have to
zoom in a lot to make it out. small text like that would be better with higher contrast.

svg apparently supports tooltips:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/102457/how-to-create-an-svg-tooltip-like-box
maybe that can be used here.

greetings, martin.

--
eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life
--
chief engineer eKita.co
pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org
secretary beijinglug.org
mentor fossasia.org
foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com
unix sysadmin
Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

stepharo

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Adam-2

You can safely remove Marina.
It is unmaintained, undocumented and not finished.

I did not see Fuel. Could be close to STON
Would be nice to have parsers
Smacc
OMeta
PetitParser

Le 25/10/15 20:23, Adam a écrit :

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: Pharo family update

Magritte could be categorized as meta-modelling.

PostgreSQL, Magma, MongoDB, etc should be Databases.
Persistency should include Voyage, GLORP, SandstoneDB, etc.
Esteban A. Maringolo

2015-10-26 17:19 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:

> You can safely remove Marina.
> It is unmaintained, undocumented and not finished.
>
> I did not see Fuel. Could be close to STON
> Would be nice to have parsers
> Smacc
> OMeta
> PetitParser
>
>
> Le 25/10/15 20:23, Adam a écrit :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is implemented
>> into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not
>> found
>> enough information, or something like that).
>>
>> Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries and
>> frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
>> about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if
>> Gofer
>> and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure), it
>> should be in "Working" circle.
>>
>> "Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal"
>> people.
>> Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...
>>
>> "Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to
>> other
>> parties.
>>
>> Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing
>> else
>> is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles are main
>> groups of libraries and frameworks.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
>>>
>>> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
>>> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields
>>> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
>>> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in
>>> my
>>> mind.
>>>
>>> It should help people to:
>>> - identify important classes in Pharo,
>>> - select right project,
>>> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
>>> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
>>>
>>> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
>>> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
>>> enterprise ready projects.
>>>
>>> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
>>> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of
>>> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
>>>
>>> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent
>>> with
>>> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
>>>
>>> Adam.
>
>
>

Adam-2

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by hernanmd

Thanks for all comments.

Dne Po 26. října 2015 12:18:31, Hernán Morales Durand napsal(a):

> 2015-10-26 11:08 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

> > Thanks Adam. This is a great initiative. I really like the

> > internal/external distinction.

> >

> > A few questions...

> >

> > Why is "Compilers" outside the circle?

I dont know :) - I dont even know if it should be included. It is part of Nautilus from this point of view. I em not aware about possiblity to choose different compiler or to compile e.g. javascript into smalltalk.

> >

> > What is the "VB" part of "VB-Regex" ?

> Vassili Bykov was the original author of Regex11 and later it was renamed.

> > and a few suggestions...

> >

> > > About categories I would group in different way but it's personal

> >

> > choice. Like...

> >

> > > Reflection

> >

> > It would be nice to emphasise our reflective capability, but what

> > would be some subparts?

> Reflection is commonly decomposed in two parts: Introspection and

> intercession.

I em not sure if it fits into philosophy of the picture. Reflectivity as well as living environmet is attribute of Pharo. This picture is more about tools, applications, frameworks and libraries for Pharo. It can be pointed out in accompanying description (under Pharo logo).

> > > Code Analysis

> >

> > This could just be "Analysis" and include Moose and SciSmalltalk.

There is Data analysis with Moose included.

> >

> > > Persistency

> >

> > Maybe "Connectors" could be renamed to "Persistence".

> Yes, besides that would avoid confusion with the Connectors package.

Can be. First version contains this, but I change it because connectors to external databases are used for more then persistency. It may also allow to define model, query data, authenticate users, allows concurency etc...

So persistency is now under Data/Storing

> > It would be good to promote in-Image persistence solutions since that

> > is a speed advantage for prototyping. btw, Is SimplePersistance

> > stable enough to be included?

> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/SimplePersistence

> I don't know about SimplePersistence but in-image persistence is a cool

> feature that other technologies lack.

Agreed - this should be somehow in the picture.

> > I don't think Magma and SandstoneDb provide services to other clients

> > (??) and so don't seem related to "Server" and would group better with

> > "Connectors/Persistence". That does then leave "Server" a bit bare.

> > Perhaps "RemoteFrameBuffer" would be a good fit.

> >

Yes, but they are able to provide service outside of running Pharo (through network), aren't they? I did not finish reading all books yet :)

Maybe this is a good question. What kind of services can Pharo provide over the network (or local sockets or pipes)? Zinc as HTTP for sure (somewhere I see HTTPS branch...or TLS implementation). WEB, REST and others are covered in Web development.

VNC - through RemoteFrameBuffer.

Databases (direct connection without using REST)?

Repository and versioning (like Smalltalkhub - but I think it uses HTTP)

CORBA?

What about possibility to share objects (by cloning objects or by sending messages or by using proxy objects)?

(Now I em not able to think about anything else much usefull :) - SSH, NTP, IMAP, nothing like this seems to be right job for Pharo - but who knows :))

> >

> > "Output" is a bit too much like "Export". Perhaps it could be renamed

> > "Presentation"

Can be.

> >

> > The legend could be moved to a corner (bottom left?), and "Pharo"

> > could be moved more centrally to its place. In another shaded corner

> > you might list the major repositories:

> > * smalltalkhub.com

> > * ss3.gemtalksystems.com

> > * squeaksource.com

OK.

> > Anyone with further ideas for the other two corners?

> >

> > I'm not sure that "Define" is the right tag for "Magritte". I think

> > its an implementation of the "Momento" pattern, so maybe that would be

> > better (or maybe that is too exotic?). Would it be reasonable to tag

> > it s "Forms" (??)

> That would require multi-class multi-label classification, because Magritte

> (and other packages) cover many areas.

Yes - many packages covers different fields. It gives me seasickness :) One time I move package under one field, next minute I move it to another, and then move it back again and rename the field to more fitting ... And then move it again. I would like to put majority of packages under its most fitting field and add other fields into description of package. Hoping that only few left with multi-lable classification.

> > "Fuel" would seem to go better near STON/JSON on "Import/Export".

Maybe yes. There was a reason I move it there (probably).

> >

> > As well as "SUnit" as a framework, "Testing" should have "TestRunner"

> > and a tool.

> Agree, the TestRunner is important.

OK.

> > "Searching > Spotter" would go well up next to "Finder"

> >

> > "Monticello" should go closer to "Metacello" and is perhaps a good fit

> > to move it down to "Working", and also Versioneer is closely related

> > to "Metacello". "Metacello" and "CatalogBrowser" would do well to

> > be tagged together as "Deployment"

> >

> > I like that you've got "Computations" with SciSmalltalk and

> > BioSmalltalk, but actually it might be good to repurpose this

> > "Downstream Distributions". I think such a section demostrates a

> > level of maturity of a system, which is important to show. This might

> > then also include Moose, Phratch, Dr.Geo and PharoROS(?). Chalten and

> > Aconcagua might be re-homed under "Data."

> Yes, I suspect it could be solved with multi-class multi-label tags.

For this I was thinking about creating new icon besides of class, tools, framework and application. Something like small lighthouse.

> > "Spec" and "Athens" are internal to Pharo.

OK - I will move Spec and Athens inside of Pharo image circle.

Adam

> I don't see why internal?

> Does that mean it wouldn''t be ported to other ST flavors?

> > whoops. thats a lot. Some parts I'm not sure on - wait and see what

> > others think.

> > cheers -ben

> Really nice diagram, but it needs more promoting outside the Smalltalk

> circle.

> Hernán

> > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Ferlicot D. Cyril

> >

> > <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > > Le 24/10/2015 09:27, stepharo a écrit :

> > >> Superb! Really nice

> > >> Margritte -> Magritte

> > >> Mondorian -> Mondrian

> > >>

> > >> to add

> > >>

> > >> Never heard about PharoLink but you should have Garage (a database

> > >> generic API)

> > >>

> > >> You could add MongoTalk close to Voyage

> > >>

> > >> GLORP

> > >>

> > >> Relational

> > >> Mapper

> > >>

> > >> Woden 3D

> > >> Roassal3D

> > >>

> > >> Omnibrowser is deprecated

> > >>

> > >> I would put STON close to Fuel

> > >> May be you should move closer the two spots: import/export and data

> > >>

> > >> Tide is not developed anymore so I would remove it

> > >> Add Reef instead (Javascript-enabled Web components)

> > >>

> > >> About Graphics

> > >>

> > >> you should have

> > >>

> > >> Athens (Vector graphics API)

> > >> Bloc (new generation Morphic)

> > >> Brick (new generation widgets)

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I do not agree to add Reef, Bloc and Brick now if this map is for

> >

> > beginners.

> >

> > > If this map is for beginners that need a framework we should wait to

> > > have a usable version with documentation.

> > > I think Bloc and Brick are not finish yet (I think) and reef lack

> > > documentation/tutorial.

> > >

> > > If a beginner see it on the map and test it he will have a bad first

> > > impression. And first impression count.

> > >

> > > This project should be on a waiting list the time there are stable and

> > > documented I think. But this is just my opinion.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Cyril Ferlicot

> > >

> > > http://www.synectique.eu

> > >

> > > 165 Avenue Bretagne

> > > Lille 59000 France

Adam-2

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by stepharo

Dne Po 26. října 2015 16:19:36, stepharo napsal(a):
> You can safely remove Marina.
> It is unmaintained, undocumented and not finished.
>

OK

> I did not see Fuel. Could be close to STON
> Would be nice to have parsers
> Smacc
> OMeta
> PetitParser
>

Fuel is under Data - Storing (but I thinking about move it under Import/Export
SmaCC and PetitParser are Import/Export - Parsers
OMeta can be included.

Adam.

> Le 25/10/15 20:23, Adam a écrit :
> > Hello,
> >
> > next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is implemented
> > into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not
> > found
> > enough information, or something like that).
> >
> > Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries and
> > frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
> > about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if
> > Gofer and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not
> > sure), it should be in "Working" circle.
> >
> > "Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal"
> > people. Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...
> >
> > "Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to
> > other parties.
> >
> > Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing
> > else is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles
> > are main groups of libraries and frameworks.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
> >>
> >> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
> >> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10 fields
> >> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
> >> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in
> >> my
> >> mind.
> >>
> >> It should help people to:
> >> - identify important classes in Pharo,
> >> - select right project,
> >> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
> >> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
> >>
> >> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
> >> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important or
> >> enterprise ready projects.
> >>
> >> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
> >> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields of
> >> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
> >>
> >> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent
> >> with the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
> >>
> >> Adam.

Adam-2

Re: Pharo family update

In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo

Dne Po 26. října 2015 17:26:55, Esteban A. Maringolo napsal(a):
> Magritte could be categorized as meta-modelling.

OK.

>
> PostgreSQL, Magma, MongoDB, etc should be Databases.
> Persistency should include Voyage, GLORP, SandstoneDB, etc.

Sounds good. Still I em wondering about "Server" circle (like I wrote in my
other email). Maybe it will be better to merge it with one of siblings.

Adam.

> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
> 2015-10-26 17:19 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:
> > You can safely remove Marina.
> > It is unmaintained, undocumented and not finished.
> >
> > I did not see Fuel. Could be close to STON
> > Would be nice to have parsers
> >
> > Smacc
> > OMeta
> > PetitParser
> >
> > Le 25/10/15 20:23, Adam a écrit :
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is
> >> implemented
> >> into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not
> >> found
> >> enough information, or something like that).
> >>
> >> Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries
> >> and
> >> frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
> >> about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if
> >> Gofer
> >> and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure),
> >> it
> >> should be in "Working" circle.
> >>
> >> "Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal"
> >> people.
> >> Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...
> >>
> >> "Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to
> >> other
> >> parties.
> >>
> >> Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing
> >> else
> >> is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles are
> >> main
> >> groups of libraries and frameworks.
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
> >>>
> >>> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
> >>> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10
> >>> fields
> >>> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
> >>> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in
> >>> my
> >>> mind.
> >>>
> >>> It should help people to:
> >>> - identify important classes in Pharo,
> >>> - select right project,
> >>> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
> >>> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
> >>>
> >>> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
> >>> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important
> >>> or
> >>> enterprise ready projects.
> >>>
> >>> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
> >>> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields
> >>> of
> >>> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
> >>>
> >>> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent
> >>> with
> >>> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
> >>>
> >>> Adam.

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: Pharo family update

Adam,

This is a nice idea. Please keep us informed with your latest version before I can comment a bit :)

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Adam <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dne Po 26. října 2015 17:26:55, Esteban A. Maringolo napsal(a):
> Magritte could be categorized as meta-modelling.

OK.

>
> PostgreSQL, Magma, MongoDB, etc should be Databases.
> Persistency should include Voyage, GLORP, SandstoneDB, etc.

Sounds good. Still I em wondering about "Server" circle (like I wrote in my
other email). Maybe it will be better to merge it with one of siblings.

Adam.

> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
> 2015-10-26 17:19 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:
> > You can safely remove Marina.
> > It is unmaintained, undocumented and not finished.
> >
> > I did not see Fuel. Could be close to STON
> > Would be nice to have parsers
> >
> > Smacc
> > OMeta
> > PetitParser
> >
> > Le 25/10/15 20:23, Adam a écrit :
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> next update. I tried to follow all sugestions - but not all is
> >> implemented
> >> into drawings (maybe because I did not quite understand, or I did not
> >> found
> >> enough information, or something like that).
> >>
> >> Pharo is mostly development platform, and image shows mostly libraries
> >> and
> >> frameworks for development, but "Development" circle in the image is more
> >> about tools primarly targeted to support process of development. So, if
> >> Gofer
> >> and Metacello is not used for this purpose (maybe it is, I'm not sure),
> >> it
> >> should be in "Working" circle.
> >>
> >> "Working" circle is mostly about tools and applications for "normal"
> >> people.
> >> Maybe it should be named like: "Desktop"...
> >>
> >> "Server" circle is meant to show that Pharo itself can offer services to
> >> other
> >> parties.
> >>
> >> Development/Working/Server are some kinde of trinity around it everyhing
> >> else
> >> is rotating. But Pharo is more about Development so other circles are
> >> main
> >> groups of libraries and frameworks.
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> Dne Pá 23. října 2015 23:58:48, Adam napsal(a):
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I just updated drawing of projects around Pharo.
> >>>
> >>> Main idea is to guide people (new users of Pharo) through fields of
> >>> interests - something they might be looking for. I choose these 10
> >>> fields
> >>> devided into some specific subjects. Somewhere it is too detailed, while
> >>> elsewhere it is too fuzzy - it is just showing image of Pharo I have in
> >>> my
> >>> mind.
> >>>
> >>> It should help people to:
> >>> - identify important classes in Pharo,
> >>> - select right project,
> >>> - understand what is application, tool or framework,
> >>> - see what is allready inside main Pharo image.
> >>>
> >>> I would like to add links pointing to part of books or to videos where
> >>> specific projects are used. And maybe a star symbol for very important
> >>> or
> >>> enterprise ready projects.
> >>>
> >>> As You can see I left few subjects empty. Maybe someone can help me fill
> >>> this. But I will be happy for any type of correction - changing fields
> >>> of
> >>> interest, subjects, adding/removing projects etc...
> >>>
> >>> I prepared textual version on github - but right now it is not coherent
> >>> with
> >>> the drawing (I will correct this if needed).
> >>>
> >>> Adam.

Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com