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Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

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stefano franchi-2

Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

I am trying to find a version of Pharo that would run on an old Mac Powerbook that cannot be upgraded past 10.6.8, but I 'm having no luck.

Any suggestions on what I should download?

Cheers,

Stefano

__________________________________________________
Stefano Franchi

[hidden email]
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

stef

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:30 AM, stefano franchi
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am trying to find a version of Pharo that would run on an old Mac
> Powerbook that cannot be upgraded past 10.6.8, but I 'm having no luck.
>
> Any suggestions on what I should download?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano
> --
> __________________________________________________
> Stefano Franchi
>
> [hidden email]
> http://stefano.cleinias.org

stefano franchi-2

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

Thanks,

Stefano

stef

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:30 AM, stefano franchi
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am trying to find a version of Pharo that would run on an old Mac
> Powerbook that cannot be upgraded past 10.6.8, but I 'm having no luck.
>
> Any suggestions on what I should download?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano
> --
> __________________________________________________
> Stefano Franchi
>
> [hidden email]
> http://stefano.cleinias.org

__________________________________________________
Stefano Franchi

[hidden email]
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Marcus Denker-4

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

On 5 Mar 2018, at 20:16, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

you could look for old VMs and downloads here: http://files.pharo.org/

But it is quite hard to for us (with our limited man power) to support old machines forever… e.g the vm from that time should run,

but at some point the VM gets improved and newer images require a newer VM as we want to actually use the features that

new VMs provide.

Keeping everything compatible in all possible directions (old images on new VMs, new image on old VMs …) puts quite some

constraints on what you can do in future… an maintaining new VMs for all possible old MacOS versions could soon just

use up all our manpower.

So this is not a simple problem to solve. Even very financially capable projects (like Mozilla) can not support old MacOS

versions. And they spend 150K per *month* just on CI infrastructure… imagine if they decide to not support anything older

then MaOS 10.9… can we? should we?

There are things to do on this front, but if I would spend effort the first thing I would work on is running *old* images on

*new* VMs and explore what kind of abstraction would be needed to to that nicely and in a way that it can be maintained

and in a way that all the needed code ( e.g. translation byte code from old to new) would be not part of the VM but

part of the image.

Making sure to run *current* images on old Machines can only be done by backporting the current VM to the old OS.

This should be not that hard, worst case is that you need to combine some old OS related code with the rest of the new VM,

but that should not be much.

But one question: Considering what developer time costs… I am quite sure that it is cheaper to just buy a current Mac.

Marcus

EstebanLM

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

hi,

I would say

get.pharo.org/30+vm

get.pharo.org/20+vm

one of both should work.

there is also a chance that

get.pharo.org/40+vm

… will work, but you need to try it ;)

Esteban

ps: but as Marcus say, it will be an older image and an older VM. Still very usable (as it *was* usable at the time), but not the fresh stuff :)

On 6 Mar 2018, at 08:47, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 5 Mar 2018, at 20:16, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

you could look for old VMs and downloads here: http://files.pharo.org/

But it is quite hard to for us (with our limited man power) to support old machines forever… e.g the vm from that time should run,
but at some point the VM gets improved and newer images require a newer VM as we want to actually use the features that
new VMs provide.

Keeping everything compatible in all possible directions (old images on new VMs, new image on old VMs …) puts quite some
constraints on what you can do in future… an maintaining new VMs for all possible old MacOS versions could soon just
use up all our manpower.

So this is not a simple problem to solve. Even very financially capable projects (like Mozilla) can not support old MacOS
versions. And they spend 150K per *month* just on CI infrastructure… imagine if they decide to not support anything older
then MaOS 10.9… can we? should we?

There are things to do on this front, but if I would spend effort the first thing I would work on is running *old* images on
*new* VMs and explore what kind of abstraction would be needed to to that nicely and in a way that it can be maintained
and in a way that all the needed code ( e.g. translation byte code from old to new) would be not part of the VM but
part of the image.

Making sure to run *current* images on old Machines can only be done by backporting the current VM to the old OS.
This should be not that hard, worst case is that you need to combine some old OS related code with the rest of the new VM,
but that should not be much.

But one question: Considering what developer time costs… I am quite sure that it is cheaper to just buy a current Mac.

Marcus

stefano franchi-2

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

Thanks Esteban,

30 works indeed. I haven't had a chance to try 40, will try it tonight.

Cheers,

Stefano

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 3:41 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

hi,

I would say

get.pharo.org/30+vm

or

get.pharo.org/20+vm

one of both should work.
there is also a chance that

get.pharo.org/40+vm

… will work, but you need to try it ;)

Esteban

ps: but as Marcus say, it will be an older image and an older VM. Still very usable (as it *was* usable at the time), but not the fresh stuff :)

On 6 Mar 2018, at 08:47, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 5 Mar 2018, at 20:16, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

you could look for old VMs and downloads here: http://files.pharo.org/

But it is quite hard to for us (with our limited man power) to support old machines forever… e.g the vm from that time should run,
but at some point the VM gets improved and newer images require a newer VM as we want to actually use the features that
new VMs provide.

Keeping everything compatible in all possible directions (old images on new VMs, new image on old VMs …) puts quite some
constraints on what you can do in future… an maintaining new VMs for all possible old MacOS versions could soon just
use up all our manpower.

So this is not a simple problem to solve. Even very financially capable projects (like Mozilla) can not support old MacOS
versions. And they spend 150K per *month* just on CI infrastructure… imagine if they decide to not support anything older
then MaOS 10.9… can we? should we?

There are things to do on this front, but if I would spend effort the first thing I would work on is running *old* images on
*new* VMs and explore what kind of abstraction would be needed to to that nicely and in a way that it can be maintained
and in a way that all the needed code ( e.g. translation byte code from old to new) would be not part of the VM but
part of the image.

Making sure to run *current* images on old Machines can only be done by backporting the current VM to the old OS.
This should be not that hard, worst case is that you need to combine some old OS related code with the rest of the new VM,
but that should not be much.

But one question: Considering what developer time costs… I am quite sure that it is cheaper to just buy a current Mac.

Marcus

__________________________________________________
Stefano Franchi

[hidden email]
http://stefano.cleinias.org

stefano franchi-2

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Dear Marcus,

thanks for the detailed answer.

Let me say that my question did not in any ways imply that Pharo should assume the burden of maintaining current images and VMs on old machines. My goal was (is) simply to find out whether it was possible to repurpose a number old machines I have laying around by installing *old* versions of Pharo. And I now have a positive answer, having installed vm30 and verified that it works perfectly.

In fact, I think adding a few lines to the website listing the last supported version for the major MacOs releases would be a valuable addition and nicely complement your commendable policy of keeping everything.

All the best,

Stefano

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:47 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 5 Mar 2018, at 20:16, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

you could look for old VMs and downloads here: http://files.pharo.org/

But it is quite hard to for us (with our limited man power) to support old machines forever… e.g the vm from that time should run,
but at some point the VM gets improved and newer images require a newer VM as we want to actually use the features that
new VMs provide.

Keeping everything compatible in all possible directions (old images on new VMs, new image on old VMs …) puts quite some
constraints on what you can do in future… an maintaining new VMs for all possible old MacOS versions could soon just
use up all our manpower.

So this is not a simple problem to solve. Even very financially capable projects (like Mozilla) can not support old MacOS
versions. And they spend 150K per *month* just on CI infrastructure… imagine if they decide to not support anything older
then MaOS 10.9… can we? should we?

There are things to do on this front, but if I would spend effort the first thing I would work on is running *old* images on
*new* VMs and explore what kind of abstraction would be needed to to that nicely and in a way that it can be maintained
and in a way that all the needed code ( e.g. translation byte code from old to new) would be not part of the VM but
part of the image.

Making sure to run *current* images on old Machines can only be done by backporting the current VM to the old OS.
This should be not that hard, worst case is that you need to combine some old OS related code with the rest of the new VM,
but that should not be much.

But one question: Considering what developer time costs… I am quite sure that it is cheaper to just buy a current Mac.

Marcus

__________________________________________________
Stefano Franchi

[hidden email]
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

Administrator

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

EstebanLM wrote
> get.pharo.org/30+vm <http://get.pharo.org/30+vm>

And if you prefer a GUI over the command line, Launcher automatically
downloads images pretty far back (I just confirmed that 1.4 works on a MBP
2017) and matches them up to the correct VM. One caveat: if the image is
very old (e.g. the 1.4 above), Launcher will hang when you try to run the
DLed image with a "determining correct VM for image…" dialog. The solution
is simple: create a `pharo.version` text file in the image folder with
`majorVersionNumber asString, minorVersionNumber asString` (e.g. for Pharo
1.4 -> '14'). That will tell Launcher which VM to use. I happily use
Launcher for all my development images. HTH

-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Cheers,
Sean

John Pfersich

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

In reply to this post by stefano franchi-2

Sent from my iPhone

Encrypted email at [hidden email]

On Mar 7, 2018, at 07:14, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Marcus,

thanks for the detailed answer.

Let me say that my question did not in any ways imply that Pharo should assume the burden of maintaining current images and VMs on old machines. My goal was (is) simply to find out whether it was possible to repurpose a number old machines I have laying around by installing *old* versions of Pharo. And I now have a positive answer, having installed vm30 and verified that it works perfectly.

In fact, I think adding a few lines to the website listing the last supported version for the major MacOs releases would be a valuable addition and nicely complement your commendable policy of keeping everything.

All the best,

Stefano

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:47 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 5 Mar 2018, at 20:16, stefano franchi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did you check

http://get.pharo.org

because we keep everything.

Apologies for not having stated my question more precisely. Indeed, I started from get.pharo.org, but the zeroconf script did not guess right. The app it downloaded crashes at startup. Then I saw the *long* list of versions available and had no idea where to begin. So my real question is:

Does anyone know which among the many VMs available on http://get.pharo.org would work on a MacOs Powerbook Pro running 10.6.9? It was the latest 32 bit only machine Apple made, based on the Intel Core Duo (NOT the Intel Core 2 Duo that came out a few months later).

you could look for old VMs and downloads here: http://files.pharo.org/

But it is quite hard to for us (with our limited man power) to support old machines forever… e.g the vm from that time should run,
but at some point the VM gets improved and newer images require a newer VM as we want to actually use the features that
new VMs provide.

Keeping everything compatible in all possible directions (old images on new VMs, new image on old VMs …) puts quite some
constraints on what you can do in future… an maintaining new VMs for all possible old MacOS versions could soon just
use up all our manpower.

So this is not a simple problem to solve. Even very financially capable projects (like Mozilla) can not support old MacOS
versions. And they spend 150K per *month* just on CI infrastructure… imagine if they decide to not support anything older
then MaOS 10.9… can we? should we?

There are things to do on this front, but if I would spend effort the first thing I would work on is running *old* images on
*new* VMs and explore what kind of abstraction would be needed to to that nicely and in a way that it can be maintained
and in a way that all the needed code ( e.g. translation byte code from old to new) would be not part of the VM but
part of the image.

Making sure to run *current* images on old Machines can only be done by backporting the current VM to the old OS.
This should be not that hard, worst case is that you need to combine some old OS related code with the rest of the new VM,
but that should not be much.

But one question: Considering what developer time costs… I am quite sure that it is cheaper to just buy a current Mac.

Marcus

--
__________________________________________________
Stefano Franchi

[hidden email]
http://stefano.cleinias.org

EstebanLM

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

> On 7 Mar 2018, at 22:55, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> EstebanLM wrote
>> get.pharo.org/30+vm <http://get.pharo.org/30+vm>
>
> And if you prefer a GUI over the command line, Launcher automatically
> downloads images pretty far back (I just confirmed that 1.4 works on a MBP
> 2017) and matches them up to the correct VM. One caveat: if the image is
> very old (e.g. the 1.4 above), Launcher will hang when you try to run the
> DLed image with a "determining correct VM for image…" dialog. The solution
> is simple: create a `pharo.version` text file in the image folder with
> `majorVersionNumber asString, minorVersionNumber asString` (e.g. for Pharo
> 1.4 -> '14'). That will tell Launcher which VM to use. I happily use
> Launcher for all my development images. HTH

just... launcher itself will not work on those machines since is based in Pharo 6.1 ;)

Esteban

>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Pharo for MacOs 10.6.8?

Administrator

EstebanLM wrote
> just... launcher itself will not work on those machines since is based in
> Pharo 6.1 ;)

Ah, good point! he he

-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Cheers,
Sean