Pharo for Professional Development
Locked
123
123
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
 
|
2009/12/18 Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>:
> Henrik Johansen wrote: > > Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window > applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all of > the Adobe products, ...). Yeah! That's true. And their look&feel may differ from the underlying os. And everyone uses them without complaining. So what's wrong with pharo? Maybe one of the weak points is that it simulates windowing system inside another one, when other applications (Eclipse, Netbeans...) have strongly defined layout (though customizable)? I think it's a real issue. Pharo Development Environment is *Integrated* but the UI still lacks this integration in some places, IMHO. But I think multiple windows in the meaning of what for example firefox has will be helpful as well. I mean two or more usual pharo windows "connected" to the same image. Is that possible? And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel (aka FileBrowser :). I vote for the WhiskerBrowser with all the cool OB stuff integrated! ;) Cheers, George _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On Dec 18, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >> >> I think that in Pharo most of the tests are unit tests. Please correct if I'm wrong, don't know it well enough yet. Each package is perfectly unit tested. > > No, no package is perfectly unit-tested. Not even close. For some things there a no tests at all. > This is even phrased too positively: For *almost everthing*, there are no tests. In addition, the code base is *a mess of epic proportion*. Normal rules do not apply. Marcus _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Bart Gauquie
On Dec 18, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Bart Gauquie wrote: > > Concerning the parts that are lacking tests. We have a rule to test everything. We have the rule to do something, even if what we do it is not perfect. The idea to request a test for everything does not work. And in addition, even tests do no guarantee that a change will have no impact. Marcus _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, George Herolyants wrote:
> 2009/12/18 Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>: >> Henrik Johansen wrote: >> >> Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window >> applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all of >> the Adobe products, ...). > > Yeah! That's true. And their look&feel may differ from the underlying > os. And everyone uses them without complaining. So what's wrong with > pharo? Maybe one of the weak points is that it simulates windowing > system inside another one, when other applications (Eclipse, > Netbeans...) have strongly defined layout (though customizable)? I > think it's a real issue. Pharo Development Environment is *Integrated* > but the UI still lacks this integration in some places, IMHO. > > But I think multiple windows in the meaning of what for example > firefox has will be helpful as well. I mean two or more usual pharo > windows "connected" to the same image. Is that possible? > HostWindowPlugin is available: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3862 > And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel > (aka FileBrowser :). At first sight this idea seems to be cool, but it's not. FileBrowser is not a "reinvented wheel", it's really useful in a closed environments like smalltalk. FileBrowser has the same features on all platforms while native dialogs don't. Some platforms don't even have a graphical UI, would you open a terminal in the image on those? Levente > > I vote for the WhiskerBrowser with all the cool OB stuff integrated! ;) > > Cheers, > George > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
2009/12/18 Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]>:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, George Herolyants wrote: >> And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel >> (aka FileBrowser :). > > At first sight this idea seems to be cool, but it's not. FileBrowser is > not a "reinvented wheel", it's really useful in a closed environments like > smalltalk. FileBrowser has the same features on all platforms while > native dialogs don't. I may be wrong, but I think the basic features are the same. And the purpose of dialogs to ask user and return its answer to the system. And this feature is shared by all the dialogs. If we're talking about selecting files, such kind of dialogs at least in windows and linux have almost the same feature set and are more usual for people. > Some platforms don't even have a graphical UI, would > you open a terminal in the image on those? I may not understand something, but is it possible to use Pharo's GUI on such platforms? _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Marcus,Â
We have the rule to do something, even if what we do it is not perfect. I never suggested this. Only trying to improve the way we are working, so that we can work more efficiently. Â
Do you have negative experiences with writing tests? I've been using it all my professional career; and I firmly believe it is the only way to develop software, a good test set really helps to move forward at a sustainable pace. Close attention should off course be payed to the quality of the tests also. Â
You are right on the point that extensive testing does not give you a mathematical certainty that everything works, but having a good test set catches most of the bugs, certainly if you're adapting/refactoring an existing system: which is the goal of Pharo: evolve/refactor Squeak.Â
Kind Regards, Bart  _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Bart Gauquie wrote: > > Do you have negative experiences with writing tests? No. > I've been using it all my professional career; and I firmly believe it is the only way to develop software, a good test set really helps to move forward at a sustainable pace. Close attention should off course be payed to the quality of the tests also. > > You are right on the point that extensive testing does not give you a mathematical certainty that everything works, but having a good test set catches most of the bugs, certainly if you're adapting/refactoring an existing system: which is the goal of Pharo: evolve/refactor Squeak. > Yes. I *love* tests... but if you say "I only integrate the System-Setting change if you provide tests for everything it touches", you will for sure never integrate anything. Marcus _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, George Herolyants wrote:
> 2009/12/18 Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]>: >> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, George Herolyants wrote: >>> And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel >>> (aka FileBrowser :). >> >> At first sight this idea seems to be cool, but it's not. FileBrowser is >> not a "reinvented wheel", it's really useful in a closed environments like >> smalltalk. FileBrowser has the same features on all platforms while >> native dialogs don't. > > I may be wrong, but I think the basic features are the same. And the > purpose of dialogs to ask user and return its answer to the system. > And this feature is shared by all the dialogs. If we're talking about > selecting files, such kind of dialogs at least in windows and linux > have almost the same feature set and are more usual for people. In that sense, yes the dialogs have similar features, but FileBrowser is more than a dialog. > >> Some platforms don't even have a graphical UI, would >> you open a terminal in the image on those? > > I may not understand something, but is it possible to use Pharo's GUI > on such platforms? > Sure, start the vm with: -vm display=none. Then use RFB to connect to the image, we use several such images. Levente > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Bart Gauquie
Bart Gauquie wrote:
> > Allow me to explain why I have such strong beliefs about this. On my > firm, we are using some techniques to enable that. On one project they > are releasing new functionality every two weeks. How they do that is as > following. These 2 weeks releases are incremental changes to a already > running production system. They take a limited set of functionality that > can be developed in say just over a week. Nightly builds are deployed on You mean for a two week release cycle you only plan for one week of development? Are your managers *sane*? ;-) I think most of us can't imagine working in an environment like that, being used to one week release cycles with two weeks of work scheduled ;-) Of course with kind of development cycle I can perfectly understand why you expect the 1.1 branch to always be working. Realistically though the OpenSource cycle is more one developer working, community testing. Which is not to say that we try to get better :-) Michael _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
2009/12/18 Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]>:
> Sure, start the vm with: -vm display=none. Then use RFB to connect to the > image, we use several such images. Yes. You're right. I completely forgot about the possibility to use RFB. Yeah, in this case all the native dialogs won't fit at all. And multiple windows in the meaning I described previously add complexity in this case. But. IIUC Newspeak's GUI framework has the possibility to handle such issues. In case native GUI is inaccessible, it can render itself in Morphic and thus provide the possibility to use RFB. And native dialogs may be handled this way. So, nothing impossible :). _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
You guys didn't ask what I think about this either :)
Native windows are not the panacea that many believe them to be. My most intense GUI in Dolphin uses a fair amount of emulation to obtain adequate performance. However, the problem (AFAIK) arises only when creating large numbers of widgets, e.g. the cells of a spreadsheet. I think our goal should be to offer a good emulated widget framework AND to use native windows for the various tool shells. A useful transition would be to use native shells with the current Polymorph widgets inside of each shell. The concept of "the" desktop (world menu) will disappear, and the current approach to startup/shutdown will be revealed to be as broken as it is. Toolshells will need menus and/or toolbars (hopefully with tasteful and compact, fixed-size buttons). Once those things are sorted, we could begin to convert the various tools to native widgets, if we even care to do so. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 7:52 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, George Herolyants wrote: > 2009/12/18 Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>: >> Henrik Johansen wrote: >> >> Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window >> applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all >> of the Adobe products, ...). > > Yeah! That's true. And their look&feel may differ from the underlying > os. And everyone uses them without complaining. So what's wrong with > pharo? Maybe one of the weak points is that it simulates windowing > system inside another one, when other applications (Eclipse, > Netbeans...) have strongly defined layout (though customizable)? I > think it's a real issue. Pharo Development Environment is *Integrated* > but the UI still lacks this integration in some places, IMHO. > > But I think multiple windows in the meaning of what for example > firefox has will be helpful as well. I mean two or more usual pharo > windows "connected" to the same image. Is that possible? > HostWindowPlugin is available: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3862 > And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel > (aka FileBrowser :). At first sight this idea seems to be cool, but it's not. FileBrowser is not a "reinvented wheel", it's really useful in a closed environments like smalltalk. FileBrowser has the same features on all platforms while native dialogs don't. Some platforms don't even have a graphical UI, would you open a terminal in the image on those? Levente > > I vote for the WhiskerBrowser with all the cool OB stuff integrated! > ;) > > Cheers, > George > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Bart Gauquie
On 18 déc. 2009, at 13:23, Bart Gauquie wrote:
One problem is that some features can only be tested through UI. Because the feature below can not be piloted outside of the UI and I dont know any framework performing automatic UI tests in Pharo. Maybe there is. Anyway, the first thing to do is to automate the launch of tests in a newly built dev image. Some people started to do that but I dont know more.
-- Simon _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen
On 18 déc. 2009, at 12:29, Henrik Johansen wrote:
Depends which Dock you are talking about :) I especially like the new with Dock/Exposé in Snow Leopard. OK, I have watched a small vid about the W7 taskbar, and it's also near what I have in mind for a new taskbar in Pharo! Actually, the different between snow leopard/dock and W7/taskbar is becoming rather short.
-- Simon _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by George Herolyants-3
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:39 PM, George Herolyants
<[hidden email]> wrote: > 2009/12/18 Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>: >> Henrik Johansen wrote: >> >> Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window >> applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all of >> the Adobe products, ...). > > Yeah! That's true. And their look&feel may differ from the underlying > os. And everyone uses them without complaining. So what's wrong with > pharo? Maybe one of the weak points is that it simulates windowing > system inside another one, when other applications (Eclipse, > Netbeans...) have strongly defined layout (though customizable)? I > think it's a real issue. Pharo Development Environment is *Integrated* > but the UI still lacks this integration in some places, IMHO. > > But I think multiple windows in the meaning of what for example > firefox has will be helpful as well. I mean two or more usual pharo > windows "connected" to the same image. Is that possible? > > And native basic dialogs may be helpful too, to not reinvent the wheel > (aka FileBrowser :). > > I vote for the WhiskerBrowser with all the cool OB stuff integrated! ;) > > Cheers, > George > Hi, you may be interested in SeasideXUL project (http://code.google.com/p/seasidexul/). The rendering of UI with native look&feel is a responsibility of the standard Mozilla XULRunner and there may be several clients connected to one image. However the OmniBrowser binding and code editor is not in the production ready state now. Cheers, -- Pavel _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In reply to this post by Michael Rueger-6
Michael Rueger wrote:
> Henrik Johansen wrote: > >> This is just another reason why multiple native windows would be nice, >> though, leaves the problem for someone else :) > > Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window > applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all of > the Adobe products, ...). That was one of the last major developments on Dolphin Smalltalk before development was scaled back - a very nice tabbed window container for all of your workspaces, browsers, etc. I think the only thing it didn't hold was the Transcript, unfortunately. Dolphin's a fine piece of work - such a pity it's Windows only. > Michael Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
Dolphin is better than that<g>, and yes, it is a shame that it is tied to Windows. In fairness, I would have made the same initial decision as they did, but I would have started investigating wx or some other toolkit as early as XP's release, and would have gotten serious about it shortly thereafter.
The feature you are describing is what they call an idea space, and it is probably my least favorite features of Dolphin. That said, the single main window of Pharo is both a blessing and a curse. It is nice if I have reason to run two images at once; it is less than optimal most other times. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:19 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development Michael Rueger wrote: > Henrik Johansen wrote: > >> This is just another reason why multiple native windows would be >> nice, though, leaves the problem for someone else :) > > Interestingly enough a lot of the (complex) multiple native window > applications have (gone back to) all in one window UIs (Eclipse, all > of the Adobe products, ...). That was one of the last major developments on Dolphin Smalltalk before development was scaled back - a very nice tabbed window container for all of your workspaces, browsers, etc. I think the only thing it didn't hold was the Transcript, unfortunately. Dolphin's a fine piece of work - such a pity it's Windows only. > Michael Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Dolphin is better than that<g> I've put my money where my mouth is with Dolphin - I think I've bought every product they've ever released, just to give them a hand - despite the fact that I've still got a Dolphin version4 image on the go! > The feature you are describing is what they call an idea space, and it is probably my least favorite features of Dolphin. And one of my favourites! If only everyone agreed with me all the time... > Bill Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
Steve,
I'm confused: how is a D4 guy an idea space fan??? Speaking of old images, I have 5.1 in gainful use. Moving to 6 was problematic, so aside from buying it (for the reason you mention), I never made the switch. I _think_ the problems I had have since been identified and understood, but there's that MS tentacle to consider. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:40 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Dolphin is better than that<g> I've put my money where my mouth is with Dolphin - I think I've bought every product they've ever released, just to give them a hand - despite the fact that I've still got a Dolphin version4 image on the go! > The feature you are describing is what they call an idea space, and it is probably my least favorite features of Dolphin. And one of my favourites! If only everyone agreed with me all the time... > Bill Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
> Steve, > > I'm confused: how is a D4 guy an idea space fan??? The key word is laziness - not the good sort of laziness that programmers are supposed to have, along with hubris, etc, but the bad sort you're supposed to shake yourself out of. I've bought the various new Dolphin products, admired their niftyness, then gone back to my working image, thinking "must move this over when I've got a minute..." It's a terrible confession, but there you have it :) > Bill Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Pharo for Professional Development
|
|
In short, the same story as me, but I have a better excuse :) It would be unwise for me to move to 6 only to promptly dump Windows. There are sabres rattling in the distance, and I'm not sure what will happen first. There are scenarios under which I might move to D6, but most of that could be avoided by a hybrid Pharo/Dolphin system, which is more in keeping with my plans to kick MS to the curb.
Part of me wishes I could just take the mac plunge, but Linux is a better fit for embedded devices that are of interest. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stephen Taylor Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:44 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo for Professional Development Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Steve, > > I'm confused: how is a D4 guy an idea space fan??? The key word is laziness - not the good sort of laziness that programmers are supposed to have, along with hubris, etc, but the bad sort you're supposed to shake yourself out of. I've bought the various new Dolphin products, admired their niftyness, then gone back to my working image, thinking "must move this over when I've got a minute..." It's a terrible confession, but there you have it :) > Bill Steve _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
«
Return to Pharo Smalltalk Developers
|
1 view|%1 views
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |