Pharo integration in enterprise feedback

Guillermo,

On the surface it may appear as such, but 'non technical' people decide about their
business as a whole, and from their perspective, they've heard of Java because it is
mainstream and the 'someones' "recommending' it have stakes in this technology...

--
Cesar Rabak


Em 07/12/2010 03:38, Guillermo Polito < [hidden email] > escreveu:
Do we have marketing people?  We need someone selling smalltalk to business people. :P

In most cases (at least here in Argentina), the technology is decided by non technical people (like managers or customers) because they heard something called java and someone recommended it to them...
 
Sad.

Hernán,

On the other hand, it is hard to try to convince someone to switch if the data
we have to present our advantages are not compelling.
 
--
Cesar Rabak


Em 07/12/2010 04:18, Hernán Morales Durand < [hidden email] > escreveu:
Tudor,

You cannot convince someone which have already choosen an option.
Cheers

2010/12/6 Tudor Girba :
--
Hernán Morales
Information Technology Manager,
Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
Internal: 422
Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

Hi,

Exactly, that is why I am saying to not even try.

I believe a much better approach is to just focus on producing something else that people need, and I also believe that we should focus on the layers above Smalltalk and start infusing Smalltalk lessons in those domains.

Moose is such an example. Moose addresses the analysis domain, and it brings in it the lessons of Smalltalk (like everything is an object = everything is an entity). Afterwards, you bundle that with an explicit use case that makes sense and get that in the hands of people. If it's good, they will use it not because of a Smalltalk-related argument, but because of its inner value. And, if they love it, they will pay more attention to what is behind.

Cheers,
Doru


On 7 Dec 2010, at 07:18, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"When people care, great things can happen."

This is a good point!  However, the issue with it is that in enterprises
programmers are paid to produce code having or not fun :-(

OTOH, the main advantage of an environment as Smalltalk, IMNHO the empowerment to the end user, is lost once the programming starts to be Taylorized with a "systems" or "IT" department in charge of this duties and end users having to interact via Requirement Engineers and so on...
 
--
Cesar Rabak




Em 07/12/2010 05:00, laurent laffont < [hidden email] > escreveu:




I agree on the feeling, I only think we all miss a very important
 tactical point here: in what realm is Smalltalk superior to other
 technologies?  




Fun :)

Laurent






 The issue some cool and kicking creatures could have been done is not
 enough, we need also to be certain we can get newcomers and have them
 quickly up to speed in doing so. _That_ has lead other ('younger')
 languages to their present status.
 
 --
 Cesar Rabak
 
 


 

On 8 December 2010 00:19,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is a good point!  However, the issue with it is that in enterprises
> programmers are paid to produce code having or not fun :-(
>
> OTOH, the main advantage of an environment as Smalltalk, IMNHO the empowerment to the end user, is lost once the programming starts to be Taylorized with a "systems" or "IT" department in charge of this duties and end users having to interact via Requirement Engineers and so on...
>

because Requirement Engineers also want to eat and feed their families :)


Indeed, smalltalk makes programming closer down to something, which
anyone can do.. But no, people won't buy it, because of the fear of
doing something awful, like putting PC on fire and get fired because
of that :)



> --
> Cesar Rabak
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Igor,

This is partially true: the percentage of 'power users' in the enterprise who write small systems in Access and Spreadsheets (be it with or w/o VBA) is impressive.  It is in the
radar screen of consulting firms selling services about risk management due the inherent problems these approaches have to the companies.

So empowering the end user is an interesting topic.  We need to gain their hearts...
 



Em 07/12/2010 21:35, Igor Stasenko < [hidden email] > escreveu:
On 8 December 2010 00:19,   wrote:
> This is a good point!  However, the issue with it is that in enterprises
> programmers are paid to produce code having or not fun :-(
>
> OTOH, the main advantage of an environment as Smalltalk, IMNHO the empowerment to the end user, is lost once the programming starts to be Taylorized with a "systems" or "IT" department in charge of this duties and end users having to interact via Requirement Engineers and so on...
>

because Requirement Engineers also want to eat and feed their families :)


Indeed, smalltalk makes programming closer down to something, which
anyone can do.. But no, people won't buy it, because of the fear of
doing something awful, like putting PC on fire and get fired because
of that :)



> --
> Cesar Rabak
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.